The Photo Challenge - Topic Suggestion \ Complaints \ OMGz about the poll

[Rhynome]

Hmm, I didn't introduce the post very well, 'interesting' often has sinister connotations, they weren't meant. I just meant that it would provoke some discussion and so is therefore interesting by proxy... not "Hmm, interesting, Mr. Bond."

Leave the photo there for now by all means, we have 'til Tuesday next, I think, or thereabouts. So leave it, we'll say what people say. Also, bashing is mean, no bash, mean...

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[Mr. Mu]

I am in a hurry right now, but let me say that this discussion is kind of heaven-sent for me, because I wanted to suggest not caring about the photomanip-rules!

More later on.

*makes a whooshing sound as he logs off*

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[Rhynome]

Damn, your whooshing sound is awesome, how do I get one?

About the photomanip thing. I think we shouldn't have them liberal because, well, they change the photo. It's skill with the camera, not skill with the computer (there was another sort of mild challenge about that last year, barely lasted). The rules go so far as 'If you realise just how stupid you were because you didn't adjust the aperture size, now can sort of correct it slightly.' but stop short of 'I don't like the look of this; I'll edit it.'

But hey, there's a thread for this stuff, how about we just say leave it in the challenge and if you don't agree with it don't vote for it. That's what I'm up for saying at least; if anyone has a response to that along the lines of 'no' that they feel very strongly about then post it here. If you don't really feel so strongly about it, but it's still an issue let's take all this to the OMGz sticky. Also if you have a personal disagreement with my views on any matter feel more than free to PM me. Yes, the photo in question is a good photo, but that's with editing, doesn't stop it being a good photo but for me it just goes that tiny bit too far on manipulation. I really mean a really, really tiny bit, it's that sort of grey zone, which I sort of want to accept, but on principle and on the basis of 'skill with the shot itself' I just can't accept.

Also, after this clears up (in a post or two, when it's had ample exposure) then the posts'll be moved across to the OMGz thread and continued there. It'll be as though nothing ever happened (cue Twilight Zone music).

(On the note of Twilight Zone, I saw some of the new series, sucked big-time. I think they cancelled it... ah thank heavens.)

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[samsite999]

continued from comp thread

its a funny subject photo manip... i think you just have to use your best judgment. As I shoot in RAW i have to do a little photo manip, i.e color balance, white balance....sharpness levels.

There is a lot of processing that goes on behind the lens of any digital camera is your shooting direct to jpg. It sharpens your image for you. you have settings on your camera for saturation ect (i.e vivid, B&W) As My camera will not shoot directly to B&W (not that i mind) I have to perform this action in photoshop. Is this not a level of manipulation?
as for the argument that if it can be done in a dark room its ok? is it? im not sure it is....there is a lot that can be done in a darkroom with knowledge and time

i am however a hipacrit because i cant honestly say that i don't touch up the levels or re crop a image when i post to this board. i however try and remain honast to the image that i have in my head when i took the photo.

its all subjective, there are times when you should, and times when you shouldn't. I suppose its all down to how you feel abut the image

[Le Gab]

Sup!

On the editing side, as i mentioned before, it is the general opinion that adjusting already existing elements in the phot is just fine. So yes, please go ahead and scramble with the color balance, adjustment layers, blur and burn / dodge tools

In the end it's digital format so if you have great tools and skill to improve your phot why not do it.

However, please, do not mistake photography for photomanipulation. That's another story altogether. Maybe we can have a workshop / challenge for that type of art since it is strongly related but not part of photography,

Cheers!

[Mr. Mu]

It'll be as though nothing ever happened (cue Twilight Zone music).

LMAO.

I'll put in my 0.002 grand over in the sticky...

crits on the entries to follow some other time...

*makes a mental note*

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[Mr. Mu]

Ok.

Here's what I think:

To hell with all conventions and drawing lines! The result counts!

Here's why:

As sam correctly pointed out there is no un-manipulated image (esp. considering we watch these things on our monitors and all). So the whole discussion would only be about where the line is drawn.

But that line is totally deliberate, bordering on random:

- You adjust levels and crop? Of course, same in the darkroom, you choose paper with a distinct level of gradation, you choose a crop.

- You do unsharpen mask? Ever wondered where that strange name came from? It's darkroom craftmanship.

- You clone, erase, add image items from other photos? Combine images? Do collages? Traditionally, those things start with a simple double or multiple exposure and continue into the realm of the weirdest manipulations (check out the manips on photos with Josef Stalin in them... every time he got rid of a competitor someone had to erase them from group photos!)

Where the hell should that line be? You could say that you only allow images where every source material is taken by the contributing artist. That is a good idea because of copyright issues alone.

But there was this thread on how to combine color palettes of classial paintings and morph them on your photos.

What to do with that?
And how would you find out?

No no. I say: Forget about it. There is no pure image material. That's an illusion and if you have to draw a line for yourself, noone stops you from not voting for an image which used methods of manipulation which are beyond your individual line.

But, in order to be able to judge on which side of the line an image resides I suggest every entry has to have a very quick documentation of what was done. No tutorial. Just a quick overview, like

"crop, levels, contrast, curves, cloned a tree out, combined with three other shots, lens flare"



What do you think?

[Rhynome]

Oh, now that's starting to hit on something. I'm sure we've all thought 'why do we have that photo-manipulation line?' And the thing is it's the most discussed part of the challenge. It has in the past been lax, the rule been ignored slightly.

Though you mentioned cloning the tree out... the tree was part of what's there, you can't just pretend it never happened. Like that photo of Stalin with Lenin, it never happened, Stalin was never with Lenin, and sticking the two photos together didn't make it happen. Sort of likewise, but on a smaller scale, the tree not being there just did not happen. To me it's getting dishonest, and lies are naughty! Then again... it's a photo, and a digital one, they're basically designed to be manipulated and they all undergo some level of it, as said. Though, I just can't really accept it that easy, there's something about it that just feels wrong.

Aaargh, I'm a photo-manip bigot!

[Le Gab]

whooohoo! Page 2. yay

Cant belive i just moved my own post. hurra for moderation!

[Mr. Mu]

Rhynome,

there is nothing wrong about the way you see this. That is my point. Everyone draws a line. Mine is way beyond Delaware... yours somewhere nearer... it doesn't matter.

- Everyone should be free to put together images the way it suits the result best according to the contributor.

- Everyone should be free to not vote for an A+ image (resultwise) if he/she feels the line has been crossed.

[Rhynome]

Yup, I'm all for that. As I've said to some idiotic amount now (I must be boring people), if you don't like it, don't vote for it.

As long as it started off with a photo, then?

[klips]

I don't really like photo manips in the photo challenge. It is because my idea of the challenge is that you are doing your best to get a photo that fits the topic, not to take a photo and then totally change it until it no longer really resembles the original but it fits the topic better. Anyone remember the first big blowup we had over this, with Il Cielo's tree of arms one? That was an amazing photo manip and would have had my vote under any other circumstance, but because it was manipulated (maybe more than is being proposed here) I felt it didn't belong in the challenge.

[Rhynome]

Ah, that wasn't the first... I do remember the photo though, but not the argument, it was a damn awesome photo, but yeah... for me that was a case of going too far.

Though it seems from discussion now that there's no need ever to delete a photo right off the bat, because if people dislike it they'll shun it, and then maybe ask for it to be deleted.
So klips, what about slightly more minor manipulations? Where do you draw the line that Mr. Mu highlighted as being oh so different for each of us?

[klips]

I'm happy with minor alterations to do with what is already in the photo, such as levels, saturation, sharpening and the like. I am also happy to have dodging and burning, as these are two of the techniques which have been essential to black and white photography for a long time. I don't like the thought of puting in things that weren't there, or removing things that were though. While this is may make a better photo, it requires less skill with a lens and more with a mouse.

Admittedly it is possible to do it without a mouse, as shown here http://www.englishrussia.com/?p=710 (thanks for reminding me mr mu) but if you're that keen to do photomanips that you'll do it on film (remember, it all as to be pre-post-processing ) then that I will accept, although likely not vote for due to the face nearly all of those baring the first two looked shopped (even though there was no shop).

Double standard? Yes, but for what I see as reasonable, that being it's not the computer software that is doing it, it's you.

[Mr. Mu]

If it turns out we might not be able to agree on the "don't vote for it if it's beyond your line" thing (which would not be a major desaster for me... just in case my enthusiasm makes you think I am kind of touchy about the things I am propagating... chances are I just need my ritalin)

...then I suggest we take the trouble and clearly indicate which methods are acceptable (in a white list somewhere), because my main confusion stemmed from the fact that the mere term photomanipulation and even an extended explanation never includes all of the things you could do that you as a contributor would declare within bounds.

[LaPalida]

Hey, when's the next challenge? I dunno I am lost on this forum. Is there a thread that has the next challenge date?

[Rhynome]

Uhm, yes, it's uh, yesterday I think.

We have the challenge, but it's a loose schedule. We used to keep with it, but then we realised that was no fun. Just pull up a chair, have a cup of coffee and read a book, post what you want and spam a little. Stine's been a bit busy at the moment, and she won the challenge, if she doesn't show up soon it'll either go to the second winner, or a mod or something.

When the next challenge starts I'll be sure to PM you, deal?

As for lost on the forum, after everyone (or most people) has had their finals we'll be finalising the sorting out of the forum. Hopefully some Site Staff will heed to our requests of sub-sections and what-not.

[LaPalida]

or if there is a thread I could subscribe to that would be good too

[Rhynome]

or if there is a thread I could subscribe to that would be good too

Hahahaha, oooh you're funny!

You know in those films where the nice nuclear family enter that crazy Redneck town and all get hunted down and eaten one by one? Well you've just entered that town.

By the way, call me Robert, we're informal here in the photo phorum. Hell, we wear jeans! (Providing of course that we're wearing trousers/pants in the first place).

If you have any suggestions on how to make this thread a little easier to bare, please say so. Also I may PM you with my views on the concept of a monotheistic god... yeah, we had a debate/argument in the lounge once, I was a minor feature, but I said sooome stuff!


(oh, wow, I clicked edit instead of quote first time, my, I need some sleep.)

[LaPalida]

Well ... Robert, I just wanted to um... you know participate in the contests... you know hone my photographic skills. Is it ok if I go commando... in a skirt? I'm sure you're all nice folk and won't do anything untoward to a scared lost little girl. Won't you?

Yeah I vaguely remember something about a debate in a lounge about God and all that stuff. Well I'm all over that. The photo forum is the new future!

As far as suggestions go... why isn't this forum like the COW Challenge or the Master Copy Challenge? BTW you edited my post you bastard. PM me your views if you wish. I'll read them but I can't guarantee I'll agree with them

[Rhynome]

BTW you edited my post you bastard.

I know, I'm sorry, I didn't mean to, I was merely on auto-pilot with an inaccurate click. You see, I could edit your post again to destroy any evidence that I edited it in the first place and then take your scent and put it in a database for tracking you down with later by dog, but I'm not the Stasi.

As for COW, we might go with something like that, see if we can get a Photo Challenge sub-forum.

As for going commando in a skirt, as long as you don't show any photos of it without warning us first (uh... PM me with them and I'll see whether they're suitable) I don't really think it's much of our business. Unless of course you're asking for fashion tips, in which case I say wear the panties.

[LaPalida]

I C - Well just wanted to be clear on how informal is informal it is in these here parts

[klips]

It is as formal as you want. Usually, the time people are the most formal is when they are insulting each other, they're either ridiculously stiff and formal or they go off the hook.

Don't worry about Robert, he's just a little pet we keep around here. We thought we were going to lose him a while ago, so gave him moderator status to keep him hanging around (he was becoming a deviant tard, and we couldn't have that ;D).

[Rhynome]

Yes, I am the pet it seems. To be honest it's not all too bad, I just wish they'd feed me more often.

But a Deviant Tart, are you sure? I try to stay away from that place, I just really detest the lay-out.

As for losing me, I just have long breaks sometimes, I'll never leave you all, never!

(Also, on the note of mods we wanted to have semi-autonomous control over the forum, so we could deal with stickies and broken links and the likes a whole lot easier. If you look at the bottom of the forum you see we have 8, which looks to be a bit of overkill, but it's the original moderators and the the home bred ones [Le Gab, Andres Pad*, Stine, Samsite999] so if there was any confusion about the horde of moderators that explains that.)


*He's the night-watch.

[Sharye]

NEED MOD HELP! I just created the new Photo Challenge and I put up the poll but I forgot to add someone! I FEEL TERRIBLE! HELP! *kicks self in head*

[Mr. Mu]

You know, I was just thinking "let's go and suggest a few topics for future challenges" and then I read the whole thread again, and I must say it was a fun read.
I also got the impression that staying in the photoforums for too long you run the risk of losing your mind, but that's a totally different story...


anyway:

- Beyond
- The Wall
- Treasure
- Where I come from
- At Heart
- Flow
- Good Luck
- Anybody out there?
- Off the Rocker
- Touch
- Don't Touch!
- Layers
- Introspection
- when in doubt leave it out (minimalism)

[alucard]

geez ...why do i never read this kind of threads

look ...can't you see that we need to start a photomanipulation workshop \ challenge thread as Gabriel suggested.

i belive that we have some people ho know a thing or two about photomanip'
including myself. and I wold like to see that kind of art groing in these threads.

i have seen this kind of art, in the IT'S FINALLY FINISHED!! thread. but not at the level that i see on DA.

so let's put our heads togheder and let's think about this ...

i hope i'll get some positive responses.

cheers !!

[Mr. Mu]

hey, I don't know which post of Le Gab you are referring to, but to my mind every single photo is manipulated - I sure consider mine manipulated as I change a lot of stuff about them.

So, are you talking about a certain kind of manipulation?
here's a short list of genres I pulled out of my ass...


- collages

- alienation

- matte painting

- skin/portrait touch up

- morph

let's be more specific... because, in my opinion, manipulation is too wide a term... also, it induces fruitless debates - it makes people discuss what qualifies as manipulation and what does not.

[Grumbledook]

funny how photo manips aren't allowed in the character of the week challenges, or shunned from art contests

so then you go to photo forums and they shun photo manips from the photo contests

I'm in the camp that anything goes as long as every entry posts under it what has been done to it

would overlaying a picture taken through a dirty window to add some texture be considered ok? something i've persoanlly done in a darkroom before using film? What about combining twoshots to mimic using a GND filter if you are out and don't have one with you? Certainly see nothing wrong with portrait touch ups either.

as long as everyone voting knows what has been done to the picture I don't see a problem

challenges can be set up every so often with stipulations like "only cropping and white balance control allowed", though to discourage creativity kinda goes against the idea of the forum no?

The new photo section should be going live in the next couple of weeks according to Jason, though he didn't say what the new subforums were going to be. I'm going to endevour to get this place a bit more active, got plans for some threads outlining the basics of SLR photography, with pictures no less ;] Got some other ideas up my sleeve too.

Gotta remember that cameras can't capture exactly what the eye sees and the photo medium is just another form of art, along with painting and drawing.

[alucard]

this is what i'm talking about ...