the Son of God came to save us not judge us...

[skullsquid]

Still basing your arguments on an arbitrary one-sided text, which does not make it true or anything as a matter of fact it's just as fancy as greek mythology(no offence meant), for 3/4 of the rest of the world.

As for philosophical arguments that prove the existence of divinity, they all turn out to be fallacies in the end. In the history of theological philosphy, there hasn't been a single argument that can make the concept of god, tangible.

Now, you speak of open-mindedness, but you seem to want to convince someone, badly may I add, that your religion is correct.
The same goes for those resources you provided, it's like trying to climb mirrors.

[Shamagim]

Wow, I just love the idea of people being atheist because they don´t reason and are misinformed, but you have to keep in mind most people of the western world have a Christian religion education, and they decided to forsaken it for their own reasons along with new scientific information. But mostly because it is a religion that makes no sense to them, in other words you can´t make them believe it, you can, however, make them pretend they do ( and i bet is not what you want )

No offense intended in relation to this thread, but I think I´ll avoid looking in the lounge for a while, the threads are getting statistically weird lately.

[Scubasteve]

Im a Christian, and Im bothered by this crap. Spamming for Christ? Comon guys... Their are better and more apropriate ways to evanglize then this.

[Tully]

I read up those links you sent, MWI, but they're still not really convincing me. The fact that there is some historical evidence that roughly corresponds to the Bible doesn't surprise me at all. Myths and legends often have a basis in real places and events, and the fact that the Bible is so recent a text compared to others would make evidence of such places/events more likely to have survived until now.

There have been other such finds that have nothing to do with Christianity-- a city believed possibly to be Troy out of Homer's Iliad was found a few years ago. Are we to believe that because we found a city that sort of looks like it might be Troy, that everything in the Iliad must be true? That Achilles was necessarily real and that he was the son of a Goddess? I think not. There's a lot of crazy stuff in that story. If the city even is a historical Troy (and it's been backed up by other Near Eastern texts.. rather like the ones alluded to in your link, but much older), it's far more likely that The Iliad was based upon an actual war whose story became sensationalised as time went on over many retellings before it was written down and translated into hundreds of languages. I think it's likely to have worked the same way with your Bible.

As for Jesus fullfilling Biblical prophecy, doesn't that seem like a bit of cyclical reasoning if you think about it? Bible says Messiah is gonna be X, Y, and Z thing. Bible then says guy comes who claims to be Messiah and is X, Y and Z. Guy must be Messiah! Do we have any way of externally verifying this stuff? I'm not aware of any historical evidence about Jesus himself other than a few Roman documents that just verified his existance (there might be more, but I don't believe it says anything other than "yep, there was a Jesus here").

[DannySketch]

hmmmmm I have gotten involved in far too many religious debates involving Christianity, but alas here I go again,

Christianity was a HUGE part of my life, I didn’t WANT to leave Christianity, and it was one of the hardest things I have ever done but there were just too many questions that couldn’t be answered.
Here’s my main three.

1) Why are u basing your whole entire life on the writings of a bunch of guys who you will never know and have been dead for thousands of years? if all our history files got wiped out this instant except for the writings of Osama bin laden and his followers, do u really think there gonna write about him being an evil killer? no there going to say he was a great and kind prophet who did nothing but good and crushed evil, u know about Jesus purely on the writings of his best friends and followers, qua?!

2)there are literally BILLIONS of religions all proclaiming that the ONLY way to heaven is there way, and yet a just and fair god expects me, a guy who couldn’t even pass his maths GCSE's, to figure out which one is the correct one, if any at all? Let alone a Palestine who has grown up never hearing the message of Christianity?

3) If I were to ask a Christian what the meaning of life is, the answer would probably be,

‘To spread the word; let every1 know the great message of god so we can all be in heaven’,

(Which coincidentally is the main reason you get a lot of Christian 'spam' if you will, on here. Christians are HONESTLY trying to help, it’s like when sum1 gives u a harsh crit on your art, even if you don’t agree with it, u see it was done with your best interests in mind.)

But then if I say well ok, but what if every1 was a Christian? The answer has been many times before, well then to worship and honour god in everything we do.

"The Bible describes Heaven like a big party, a feast, where everyone is constantly worshipping God."

God says that vanity is a sin, it says so in the bible, if that is true god HAS to be a hypocrite to create billions of little humans whose pure meaning in life is to wake up each morning and tell him how great he is.

This isn’t meant as an attack, just questions that I have wanted answered for a long time.
i honestly would love to be proven wrong.

[Hybridstar]

There is no god like there is no Santa or tooth fairy.

[sciboy]

I'm sorry, but for some really odd reason i keep on reading the title as "the Son of Goku came..."

[mwillustration]

please note that i didn't start this thread but only responded to it.
i also seem to be the only one supporting the Christian theology, but that makes it all the more fun!

as for trying to convince people of my beliefs, you don't need to agree, but i definitely will defend what i believe.
if you can't defend what you believe, is it really worth believing?

evildisco, if you would read what's on those links you'll see that it's not only being taken from the Bible, or a one sided text.
if you want to see info more in depth, pm me and i'll send you the books.

as for open-mindedness, i haven't heard one alternative that makes sense, so if there is one, i'm definitely open to it.
i don't want to believe in something if it's not true.
but to find out, you've got to do the work.

when it comes to philosophical arguments, there are those out there that support God not even existing, which i'm assuming may have credibility for you?
logic can prove truth.

when you say tangible, do you mean something that you can completely grasp or something you can see?
because neither of those things are required for something to be true.

if i can totally grasp God, He can't be that amazing.
my mind is too limited that if i can wrap it totally around the concept of God, then i need to know all things, which then makes me god.
if you want to talk about something like seeing is believing, here's an example of something you don't see but does exist:
the wind.
i don't see the wind, but i see the affects of the wind.
same with God.
you don't see Him, you see the affects of Him, like humans, the earth, etc.

here's the logic that can prove at least that a "God" exists instead of everything being here by chance:
A building is proof that there was a builder. A painting is absolute proof that there was a painter. You don't need to see him to believe he exists. His painting is all the evidence you need. It wouldn't be there if he didn't exist. Creation proves absolutely that there is a Creator. There wouldn't be a creation if there wasn't a Creator. - ray comfort

if you don't like the use of the word "creation" it still doesn't deem the argument irrelavent.
everything that has a beginning had a cause, and that cause ultimately comes back to God.
God had no beginning, he lives outside of time, since He created it.
he is the "causer".

i'm ready for more attacks on my beliefs if you are.
(not trying to be arrogant, it just seems like i'm alone in here)

[mwillustration]

good stuff tully, and dannysketch.
i'll reply later when i have time, since i'm at work now.

in the meantime, tully, here's a link that list some scientific facts in the Bible which shows it's supernatural origins.
http://www.livingwaters.com/various/science/

[skullsquid]

Here's what really goes through my head since you seem to think I am rather confused.

I am not attacking your belief, frankly I don't care what you believe, my biggest issue with your arguments is that you are trying to make your point of view impossible to disprove, which is another fallacy.

I am not interested in religion in the least, I find all religions a scourge to humanity and a testament of humanity's ultimate arrogance by putting themselves at the centre of the universe with the "in god's image" and such rethorics. Religions like christianity entail the concept of faith and belief, how can you take something as true if you are being asked to have faith(which is the death of reason) by you system of belief(believing and knowing are two very different things).

What I do think is the case, is that humans like me and you are utterly terrified by the fact that there is really no point to the universe, that it is not special and that it was caused by pure chance.
That is why religion is created, to explain and give significance to what empirical knowledge cannot explain yet.

What I meant by tangible was probably intelligeble, picked the wrong word. The concept presented by christianity is contradictory in itself, so many aspects of it are in complete opposition to the very same ideas it harbours.


If you think you like to argue about this type of things, you found your match I am the reverse of the coin.

[blog]

I think those people that say 'I believe in god'... are idiots

[Scubasteve]

Hey Danny, I wouldn't normal go here, but since you are showing a genuine interest in the topic I'll say it.

"Christianity was a HUGE part of my life, I didn’t WANT to leave Christianity, and it was one of the hardest things I have ever done but there were just too many questions that couldn’t be answered. Here’s my main three."

First I wouldn't say they couldn't be answered as much as you arent satisfied with the answers you have heard. But anyway here goes.

"1) Why are u basing your whole entire life on the writings of a bunch of guys who you will never know and have been dead for thousands of years? if all our history files got wiped out this instant except for the writings of Osama bin laden and his followers, do u really think there gonna write about him being an evil killer? no there going to say he was a great and kind prophet who did nothing but good and crushed evil, u know about Jesus purely on the writings of his best friends and followers, qua?!"

True, you do have to take what you read as the truth, but isn't that what faith is? If you see something with your eyes, its not faith anymore but knowledge right? You take things on faith all the time. You've never seen a photo of George Washington, but you know he exists by history. As a Christian, I trust that the Bible was written under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, so, the argument that the Bible is hinging on the writings of frail humans doesn't hold water (from the Christian viewpoint) because if God is in control of the world, the Bible is exactly as he intended it to be, even though it was penned by people.


"2)there are literally BILLIONS of religions all proclaiming that the ONLY way to heaven is there way, and yet a just and fair god expects me, a guy who couldn’t even pass his maths GCSE's, to figure out which one is the correct one, if any at all? Let alone a Palestine who has grown up never hearing the message of Christianity?"

Well, sorry about failing your math GCSE, but being a Christian isn't as complicated as you think. In fact, anyone is capable of understanding it. Billions? Im pretty sure you could say their are probably only hundreds if that of religions. Even taking in account all of history. You also need to look at what a religion promotes and what its doctrinal make up is. I have quite a few issues with most other religions, which I won't go into as to not offend anyone. But many of the laws and natural truths come from the Bible and the teachings of Christ. Look at the type of behavior a religion promotes or encourages and see what you come up with that. Also Christianity isn't spread by voilence like many other religions are, I know their are a few exceptions to this, but you can't judge a religion by a few misguided individuals.

"3) If I were to ask a Christian what the meaning of life is, the answer would probably be, ‘To spread the word; let every1 know the great message of god so we can all be in heaven’,
(Which coincidentally is the main reason you get a lot of Christian 'spam' if you will, on here. Christians are HONESTLY trying to help, it’s like when sum1 gives u a harsh crit on your art, even if you don’t agree with it, u see it was done with your best interests in mind.) But then if I say well ok, but what if every1 was a Christian? The answer has been many times before, well then to worship and honour god in everything we do."

Well, the meaning of life is a loaded statement, but I'll give it a try. Getting to heaven is not really God's goal for you as much as a byproduct of becoming a Christian. The meaning of our existance is one of fellowship and service to God. Some Christians try to paint the picture that your whole life will be perfect once you become a Christian, but if you read the Bible, that isn't the case at all. Many times you'll face hardships for following Christ, but you'll be better for it. We were created to be God's friend, thats why we have free wills. If he wanted to force us to serve him he could, but he wants us to love him and serve him willingly. God calls heaven paradise. I don't think we will be praying constantly or in a constant state of paying homage or something like that. If you believe in God then you believe he loves you and wants you to enjoy yourself. Not to be crude, but if you believe God created sex, then you know he knows how to make things you enjoy, so the thought of paradise should be about the greatest thing you can imagine.


"This isn’t meant as an attack, just questions that I have wanted answered for a long time.
i honestly would love to be proven wrong."

As far as proving you wrong, thats a decision you'll have to make. If your looking for proof that God exists, I don't think your going to hear his audible voice or see a burning bush. You have the Bible, read it yourself and put him to the test in your life. I think he will prove faithful, he has to me.

[skullsquid]

Also Christianity isn't spread by voilence like many other religions are, I know their are a few exceptions to this, but you can't judge a religion by a few misguided individuals.

A FEW????Talk about understatement....

[emily g]

mwillustration,

Normally I would be on your side in a debate like this, but I'm sorry to tell you that I find your proofs and evidence to be quite amateurish.

You are sending people to these christian apologetic sites that...ugh...aren't that great (and have bad math).

And then you quote Ray Comfort...
I thought that was bad enough--maybe you didn't know who he was--but then you direct people to his site!
On the religious sanity scale, I consider him to be leaning towards "religious wacko."

I'm sorry, I don't know what else to say. I think a religious belief based on "proofs" and "evidence" is really missing the meaning of religion anyway.


emily

[Hybridstar]

Belive in yourself and the people closest to you(thats my belief, there is nothing else), then you'll really soar. At the end of the day if it works for you great, whatever floats your boat. Religious arguments are inevitably pointless, you cant preach to the converted!. Someone close this thread please!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Scubasteve]

Yeah, evil disco, a few. I don't think its an understatment at all. If you count the guys blowing up abortion clinics and the like, the church comdemns them saying that it isn't right. Can you site some recent examples where Christians are blowing up people telling them to convert? If you can, I'd be very interested in seeing them. Say in the last 1,000 years?

[mwillustration]

evildisco,
great retorts.
i love that you are passionate about this, but i'm not trying to argue.
i'm just defending my faith, it doesn't need to get ugly.
we can discuss intelligently and still disagree.

first off, Christianity doesn't support a position of arrogance for humanity, in fact quite the contrary.
it puts God at the center and us subject to Him.
it also places the blame for sin, evil, death on our heads.
we chose suffering when adam and eve chose to disobey God and think they knew better than Him.
(and don't think you wouldn't have done it)


being made in God's image only means that we have the same ability to reason, love, and be creative as God does.
it's not a "we are just like Him" thing, not in one bit.
there are some christian sects that believe they can become gods, like mormomism, but that's not at all what the Bible espouses.

to say your not attacking my beliefs is hilarious.
"I find all religions a scourge to humanity"
i mean, come on...

when you say that the universe was caused by pure chance, i'm guessing you mean evolution.
evolution is just another theory that one believes in as an act of faith.
there's no absolute proof that evolution is fact, just like there's no physical proof that Christianity is fact.
fact and truth are two different things.

truth is applicable to immaterial things, whereas fact is applicable to material or measurable things.
truth as well as fact are based on evidence.
there is evidence that can fully support Christianity to be true.
you have the choice to believe it or not.
God's pretty cool that way.


if you someone is completely opposed to believing, then they won't believe even if they have a mountain of evidence against them.
so, if you don't believe, that's ok.
i'm just saying stuff in case there's someone that would believe.
to me it's the height of indifference to not care if others are going to be without God for all eternity if that's what you believe, which i do.

therefore, i feel the need to reply and state the other half of the issue.
cause i love you all man!

[DannySketch]

cheers scubasteve for ur interest but u were right in ur first few sentences these are answers i have heard b4 and am not satisfied with, i would write an argue in replie but i think we both figure its pointless hammering this out on the net, but cheers man for taking the time.

and lol to hybridstar!preach on brother, preach on.

[mwillustration]

Someone close this thread please!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

discussion is great.
don't close the thread.
you don't have to read it if you don't want to.

i think the discussion has been pretty civil thusfar.
if you want it closed, maybe someone needs to spew some sharply aimed hate.
otherwise, i'm lovin it!

[skullsquid]

Yeah, evil disco, a few. I don't think its an understatment at all. If you count the guys blowing up abortion clinics and the like, the church comdemns them saying that it isn't right. Can you site some recent examples where Christians are blowing up people telling them to convert? If you can, I'd be very interested in seeing them. Say in the last 1,000 years?

ERRRRR.... did you ever study history?
Crusades, Inquisition, burning of heretics, wiping out amazonian indians out of existence, to name a few.
Seems you are ignoring a huge chunk of the church's history in world affairs.


As for you mw, I think we are just going in circles with the arguments, so I am not wasting anymore energy on it.
I have to draw which is more important that arguing about things I have already made my mind on.

[theincredibleandy]

mw brings up a good point with evolution, but I think gravity is a more pressing theological debate:

click here to get blown away!!!!!!!!!!

[mwillustration]

evildisco,
that's cool.
if you've already made up your mind, then there's i can't change it!
i really don't want to either, i just want to defend my faith since the post was quite one sided at first.

the evidence and discussion is really for those on the fence like we all once were before we made up our minds.

[Shamagim]

first of all, yes i peeked despite saying that i wasn´t going to.

Just to say : Don´t disregard Emily´s statement, she is right on the spot of why you should not try to offer any evidence or seek any for that matter, you lose the entire point of being a Christian.

And you can´t have an intelligent conversation with someone that by default thinks you are already mistaken.

Please, Emily, close this thread, it was originally made by a spammer and is not getting anywhere, thats reason enough.

[emily g]

Uh oh.
Scubasteve--the person who told me I was going to hell--has joined the discussion.

when you say that the universe was caused by pure chance, i'm guessing you mean evolution.
evolution is just another theory that one believes in as an act of faith.
there's no absolute proof that evolution is fact, just like there's no physical proof that Christianity is fact.
fact and truth are two different things.

Ah, I see you have only been here since Nov of 2005. You have missed our great multi-page threads on evolution. This is also where the "you're going to hell" incident happened.

I'm disinclined to close the thread, because people have been pretty civil so far, but if things get out of hand I'm going to lock it.

emily

[skullsquid]

Doesn't matter Mortem it was done in the name of the church and religion, thank them if there's only a handful of amazonian tribes left.

[DannySketch]

I'm disinclined to close the thread, because people have been pretty civil so far, but if things get out of hand I'm going to lock it.

emily

oh uve done it now, every1s gonna start calling each other poo poo heads.

[Shamagim]

I'm disinclined to close the thread, because people have been pretty civil so far, but if things get out of hand I'm going to lock it.

emily

Sounds reasonable

DannySketch: poo poo head!

[Tully]

I'm not feelin' the link you suggested to me, MWI. All of the quotations they cite are very cryptic and don't demonstrate to me that they knew what it's being claimed they knew.

"Leviticus 17:11 (written 3000 years ago): "For the life of the flesh is in the blood."
The Scriptures declare that blood is the source of life. Up until 120 years ago, sick people were "bled", and many died because of the practice. We now know that blood is the source of life. If you lose your blood, you will lose your life."

This one, for example. I'm pretty sure everybody knew 3000 years ago that if too much blood leaked out of you, you died. The statement that "blood is the source of life" is pretty odd. It's not scientific, to be certain. You could say the same thing about skin. If you lose your skin, you're not gonna be living too long. Or your liver. Or your lungs. Or your colon. If our bodies are damaged too much, we're gonna die. Doesn't seem like crazy modern science to me. Just common sense.

Job 38:35 (written 3,500 years ago. God Himself speaking): "Can you send lightnings, that they may go and say unto you, Here we are?"

Or this one.. your link claims that that was evidence they knew about radio waves. It seem like a pretty massive leap of reasoning to get from "lightnings" to radio waves.

Or the bit about the "circle of the earth" demonstrating that they know the earth is spherical. For one thing, circles aren't spheres. Circles are flat. the "circle" could refer to the 360 degrees of viewing space we have around us at any given time. If I turn around to see the world, I see it in a circular manner. You'd think if they knew the earth was a sphere, they'd go into a bit more depth instead of one little comment that could easily be interpreted other ways.

Seems to me that that whole page is just some guy looking for proof. If you look for something like that in the Bible (or in any religious text), chances are you're going to find it. It just takes stretching the words you see into the preconceptions you're trying to verify. It'd be like me saying that becauase the ancient greeks had stories about people travelling up to the heavens, it means they were aware of the feasibility of space travel. Pretty ludicrous, isn't it?

[Scubasteve]

Hey emily, If I did say that, I shouldn't have. Ive had a bit of a revelation the last few months and don't prescribe to the Turn or Burn menatality. I have a nonconfrontational view (which would be nice if others took) to evanglism. I see most everyone here as searching for the truth in their own way, and don't feel I have a monopoly on whats correct. I'm certainly open to a good debate, and am passionate about my points, but I want only the best for everyone here. So I apologize if I said that.

Evildisco - ok how about the last 100 years!

Anyway, I may be alittle ignorant about some of these tribes mentioned, but maybe their not there anymore because they want running water and nintendos.

[skullsquid]

Hey emily, If I did say that, I shouldn't have. Ive had a bit of a revelation the last few months and don't prescribe to the Turn or Burn menatality. I have a nonconfrontational view (which would be nice if others took) to evanglism. I see most everyone here as searching for the truth in their own way, and don't feel I have a monopoly on whats correct. I'm certainly open to a good debate, and am passionate about my points, but I want only the best for everyone here. So I apologize if I said that.

Evildisco - ok how about the last 100 years!

Anyway, I may be alittle ignorant about some of these tribes mentioned, but maybe their not there anymore because they want running water and nintendos.

I already gave you plenty of facts for you to ponder on, now I have no obligation of responding to you since you have proven to be ignorant beyond belief in the matters you want to argue. I suggest you you learn a thing or two before thrusting yourself into something you don't know for certain.