Art: Survival of the fittest?

[USER777]

Hi, fellow forum members.
I am starting this thread because a question has been around my mind for a couple of months now.

It started to come up when I began to take drawing classes. My current teacher is a fine artist. He is really skilled in drawing, life drawing, anatomy and so on, the whole academical standard. Although he learned hard and paints like a master, he struggles quite hard financially. He has some expositions every now and then but he seems not to be able to live a life with any sort of luxury. This made me kinda angry, seeing this really traditionally skilled artist that can paint all sorts of realistic pictures having to worry about his next meal and seeing for example some idiot spitting at a canvas or something and becoming rich. It simply doesn't support my (maybe too naive) sense of justice and makes me wonder about the omnipotent sentence "practice, practice, practice" because he DID PRACTICE, practice, practice and didn't eventually succeed yet at what he does.

Ever since I started drawing my wish of becoming a professional "artist", whether it's fine artist, illustrator, industrial designer, concept artist or whatever, grew bigger and bigger.

My actual question is: How are the chances of being able to make a living off "art" nowadays?

Many people say that it is a lot harder than any other job, because your income is not steady and you will often have to work hard for (practically) no money.
I seriously consider an artistic career for myself because I (like so many ) feel the urge to express myself artistically, love drawing and painting and couldn't imagine a better "job" for me. It's what I love.
But since I am 17 I didn't actually decide to study art, become a professional, yet. I am just having second thoughts about it, since my teacher is struggling so hard with it.

This is especiall to all you professional artists here on the forums:

How old were you when you began to take art really "serious" and thought about making a living off it (and don't tell me you knew you were to become a professional at the age of 5 or so )?

Did you ever have second thoughts about it, concerning the financial side of your career?

Or did you just follow your dream and didn't bother whether or not you were gonna be succesful?

Discuss! (if you understood this chaotic text.. yuck, my grammar sucks)

- Lim

[Interceptor]

It does seem like it would be very hard to live off of art. But I think to do so, you need to be entirely dedicated to it. And be taking on as many peojects as you can.Even the best of the best apparently don't live as stars. The interview with Android said he was'nt living the life of luxury... I've come to grips that I won't be rich with art. Assuming I can even get a job with all the talent out there. But I lead a simple life anyways.. and to be poor, but drawing for a living, I could deal with.

[tgfx]

Interceptor is right. It takes dedication and strong will to get to the top. But none of us can do it alone. It takes a team with the same goal to make it and most of all it takes time. I have to remind myself everyday that our time will come and to be patient....

[darth massacre]

Mmmmm.

There's the "dream job" and then there's reality.


My belief? Artists gotta eat. If that dream isn't gonna feed your family, its really not worth living.

I'm in the exact situation now. Its the summer holidays and I tried getting a full time job with old contacts....no one's hiring someone for just 4 months....sooo....I'm working freelance....taking in everything there is to offer. Graphic design, book layouts, illustrations, logo designs, caricatures, storyboards...whatever brings home the bacon.

Don't have to like it...just have to do it.

[USER777]

good replies. keep em coming.
thing is, i don't expect either to become rich by doing art, but at least maintaining a "simple" standard of living. i am just sceptical about that, because my drawing teacher is really GREAT and has been doing what he does for ages, and HE lives on the edge to poverty. i think there is quite a high number of artists out there who are great but don't make any money off it.

[Dizon]

I have been told by other professional artists to always chase my dreams of being artist because that is what I love to do. Your instructor has something better waiting for him in the future, I'm sure, as long as he keeps working hard.

[ArtbyWard]

On the other hand, you can get wealthy. In the interview with Feng Zhu he stated that he is on par with lawyers docters etc. But then again that's not for everyone.

[Elwell]

good replies. keep em coming.
thing is, i don't expect either to become rich by doing art, but at least maintaining a "simple" standard of living. i am just sceptical about that, because my drawing teacher is really GREAT and has been doing what he does for ages, and HE lives on the edge to poverty. i think there is quite a high number of artists out there who are great but don't make any money off it.

As will be the case in any artistic field. How many really great actors/musicians/dancers are out there who, for whatever reason, aren't able to support themselves? The odds are definitely againt you, but you'll never beat them if you don't try.

[figure2]

My current teacher is a fine artist. He is really skilled in drawing, life drawing, anatomy and so on, the whole academical standard. Although he learned hard and paints like a master, he struggles quite hard financially. He has some expositions every now and then but he seems not to be able to live a life with any sort of luxury.

One of the biggest omissions in most art school curriculums, IMHO, is a basic business course. When most of us graduate from art school, we have been trained to be craftsmen (and women) and then suddenly dropped into the marketplace of business & comerce without knowing most of the rules.

One of the most important rules of business is marketing: Getting yourself out in front of the people who will hire you and then presenting yourself as a confident professional artist. Many of us have been flabberghasted by the sight of mediochre or even poor artists getting great opportunities while better, more accomplished artists struggle. While a few of these people may be taking advantage of family or personal connections within the company, I am convinced that most of these less than qualified artists are leagues ahead of the rest of us in self-promotion savvy. They can convince art directors, gallery owners, etc. that they are the best that's out there, even if the quality of their work doesn't support the image.

The second most important rule in business is knowing the value of your craft. At the end of any negotiation for contract commercial art, the question "how much?" will be asked. Your answer will determine your client's opinion of you. Bid too low and your client will assume that you you are too inexperienced or unskilled to take on their project, bid way too high and the client will have no room to negotiate. Each artist's work is going to have a different value, but finding the way to calculate that value is critical. I wish I could say I have this answer but I don't.

Regardless of how you feel about his work, Thomas Kinkade figured out both the creative and practical aspects of the business of art. He proved to me at least that achieving success as an artist is more than just developing your craft. We could all take a lesson from him.

[darth massacre]

On the other hand, you can get wealthy. In the interview with Feng Zhu he stated that he is on par with lawyers docters etc. But then again that's not for everyone.

Yeah Feng is REALLY GOOD. I mean, Lucas has what? A dozen artists working on Ep3? I mean....a dozen frikin good artists at the top of their game. That doesn't even start to represent 1% of the total amount of artists out there trying to get a foot into ILM or Massive Black!!!

The best thing to do is to accept that you'll live an ordinary artist's life as quickly as possible. Then do what you need to do as best as you can and see where it takes you. I mean, if you're THAT good, people come to you, not the other way around.

For us peasants, we just have to keep working on it. Take jobs that are reasonable and in the general direction we're going. Beggars can't be choosy.

[Elwell]

My current teacher is a fine artist...really skilled in drawing, life drawing, anatomy and so on...paints like a master...

That might be part of his problem right there .

[dogfood]

Hopefully, Ilaekae will chime in.

I'm with figure2; you need more than one skill to succeed in this world, regardless of what field you choose. In art, like most aspects of modern life, you have to have skills that can be translated in to monetary value ("Man, I love that!" "Would you like to buy it?" "For money? Ooo, no thanks.") and be willing to sell them. While your instructor may be a master, he may either have poor business skills or not deem it worthwhile to modify his work for commercial success. Pride can be even more damaging than stupidity, sometimes. I'm not saying he's either, as I don't know him, but I know of others along these lines. Making a living in this world is about supply and demand, or theft (either legal or illeagal).

[USER777]

thanks for the comments, some very valid statements here.
what i could basically get from your suggestions was, that to be succesful one has to play the business part as well as the artistic part.
makes sense to me. but what is the best way to get into the business? to make connections with people that will eventually buy something from you? should i just advertise myself in any possible way until someone finally comes to me and buys something? or are there other possibilities/ways/etc.?

[arkinet]

Got that dilemma before too... thats why I took up architecture, though I dip my finger once in while on the side... its kinda scary specially if you have kids & all. & just as they said, dedication, you have to sweat it out... marketing plays a big part, & connections too... All you need is a wealthy patron & BAM! You're in the elite circle

[talbot]

Lim;
Here is a pretty good interview with Neal Adams that deals with some of the finical aspects I think you're talking about.
(Adams comes off a bit cranky at times, but I believe what he has to say is valid.)

http://www.comicfoundry.com/modules/...?articleid=103

What kind of advice would you give to young artists to protect themselves?

First of all, I would not advise anybody in any school anywhere to not take a business course. If you want to be an artist, you will make more money taking a business course than you will studying art. If you can take a really good business course while you do all the good artwork that you want to do, then you’re more likely to make a better living than you are if you take all the art you ever want to do and no business course.

[USER777]

Lim;
Here is a pretty good interview with Neal Adams that deals with some of the finical aspects I think you're talking about.
(Adams comes off a bit cranky at times, but I believe what he has to say is valid.)

http://www.comicfoundry.com/modules/...?articleid=103

really good article, good read, shame i hadn't heard about him before. but, BOY is this guy harsh.. kinda pessimistic and even paradox, but overall some valid statements.. whew, i am demotivated now. this article made me all mad in my head. gotta draw some more

[Marko Djurdjevic]

I started my professional work at the age of 17, could support myself at the age of 19 and have been living of it ever since.
Being a successful artist has a lot to do with your artistic skills and the message you want to bring across, but at the end of the day, what really counts are your social and marketing skills. You can be the greatest artist in the world, sitting in your studio painting amazing shit all day, but if you have no clue on how to sell your work, you won't make it anywhere. Being able to speak up for yourself and even sell your paintings to a bum on the street is what makes one"s success.

M

[el coro]

you are only as good as your hustle. no matter what game you are in. to be an artist, some capacity of talent is a given, its all about how you work it.-c36

[PeggyChung]

I started my professional work at the age of 17, could support myself at the age of 19 and have been living of it ever since.
Being a successful artist has a lot to do with your artistic skills and the message you want to bring across, but at the end of the day, what really counts are your social and marketing skills. You can be the greatest artist in the world, sitting in your studio painting amazing shit all day, but if you have no clue on how to sell your work, you won't make it anywhere. Being able to speak up for yourself and even sell your paintings to a bum on the street is what makes one"s success.

M

sorry to be off topic but, how were you able to get art jobs at such a young age? And i remember you saying that youre self taught, thats pretty awesome getting to professional level work teaching yourself. what was your first pro art job? and how did you get it? connections or just went out sending your portfolio? thanks.

[Ilaekae]

I'm really enthused by all the replies above...

Most artists are the worst business people I have ever met in my life, myself included. If we were in charge of the world's economy, we'd all be eating raw meat in a cave somewhere...but it WOULD be a really attractive cave...

I was on my way to being a potentially successful sculpture/printmaker/painter when I made the bonehead mistake of getting married at 19. By potentially successful, I mean in maybe 10 years, I could afford a nicer tent and something above the level of dog food. Not the place for a family, so I went into advertising.

I did whatever those bastards wanted, whenever they wanted, the way they wanted...and they paid me some money on a regular basis. After two years of this kind of crap (and the "attempted muder" of two of my employers with a can opener--don't ask...), I went solo. Even as a mediocre businessman, my reputation and contact base was good enough to to allow me to more than just barely survive. I could have done better, but I was one of those freaks in the sixties who refused to wear a tie and suit, threw annoying printing salesmen out of windows on a regular basis, hated corporate types, and I haven't had a haircut in 37 years. Not very politically correct today, I guess...

What I did learn was how to market for others. Do it for them, you can do it for yourself. In that I was lucky. I also partnered with some of the finest designers that ever lived in my area, and I learned everything I could from them.

The modern field(s) is/are more of a team environment, and it's almost a necessity to be an employee, because of the incredible amounts of money required to establish your own operating base. All I needed then was a table, T-square and some paper/board/rubber cement and paint...and 100,000 Xacto blades.

It gonna take the younger people some real effort to survive on their own today, probably as a small team, so they almost HAVE to study beyound their art. Business stuff. Who, when, where, how much...boring shit that will drive you up the wall and probably save your life some day. Thank gawd I'm not 20 today...I'd be living in a refrigerator box...but it would be a REALLY attractively decorated refrigerator box.

You guys in school...fight for business classes for creative people of all stripes. Hound the deans, professors, alumni, even the Pope. If enough of you do it, the bastards will get tired of arguing with you and do something just to shut you up...

[dogfood]

... and something above the level of dog food.

I love being mentioned.

Ilaekae brought up a great point that is true for many, many fields: the market is demanding ever-higher efficiencies in order to be competitive. For those mid-range producers, you have to figure out a better way to do business, either through an innovative business model (almost the norm, these days), or improving the product (both would be better). And if you’re not going to start your own business, it’s important to tie your star to one that has these characteristics.

And not one business course (of course, it shows in my bank account).

[Dan.v.D.]

sorry to be off topic but, how were you able to get art jobs at such a young age?

portfolio?

[look]

Got to agree with figure2 too. It's actually the same in many other fields as well, even in business fields.

You can be a top graduate in business school, but if you don't really know how to sell yourself out, you probably will just reduce to work as a sale's man. And how many CS graduates become anywhere remotely like bill gates? Most of them are just hiding in a cubical and do crazy coding all day, and now most of them are losing jobs due to the cheap labor coming in from other countries.

Knowing what sells matters quite a lot. You can't really be a total dreamer and paint things you want instead of things clients want. =/ And sadly it seems a lot of fine artists don't like that, and hold up their ideal that someday others will like what they paint. But on the practical side, you'll need to do something suit the general public's taste just to make a living.

[Marko Djurdjevic]

sorry to be off topic but, how were you able to get art jobs at such a young age? And i remember you saying that youre self taught, thats pretty awesome getting to professional level work teaching yourself. what was your first pro art job? and how did you get it? connections or just went out sending your portfolio? thanks.

I spent weeks to built a strong 200+ page portfolio, called up the publishing company I wanted to work for and told them I am a skilled 17 year old illustrator that could easily outmatch the work of their inhouse artists. They invited me to an interview, I bought a train ticket, went down there and introduced myself. The Art Director (to this day one of the best guys I ever worked with) saw my potential, bought the rights to a couple of pieces from my portfolio on the spot and gave me my first assignment to work on. It was a whole book that he wanted me to finish, 60 B/W illustrations, and a Cover. I turned my job in 2 weeks before the deadline expired and won their trust with it. From that point on I became their illustrator of choice for the next two years. My AD then introduced me to other AD's from other companies and I started building a contact base of possible contractors, whom I updated with new portfolios every now and then, just to remind them of my artwork. In my third year as a freelancer, I had aquired enough contacts so work came in steadily.

That's it. Hope it helps.

M

[Patton Art]

Marko pretty much said it all.

But I want to ask about your teacher there. You say he's a good artist and can draw realistic pictures and all that, that he is skilled in the "academic standard." Who did he study under? There's a huge difference between learning to render off of photographs and draw pretty from life; and learning classical art. What I'm saying is, it might look great to you and your high school (you said youre 17, which would make you in high school), but how does his work compare to Jacob Collins, Tony Ryder, Ted Seth Jacobs, Odd Nerdrum, Steven Assaell, and the like? Also, what does he paint? You can paint with extreme skill, but if your paintings are boring, then your paintings are skilled and boring.
Also, how much effort is he putting in to become an artist? I brought up a bunch of skilled artists doing very well financially, but there's also less skilled artists making a decent living off of their artwork too. An acquaintence of mine is a plein air painter and is in a few smaller galleries around the USA. He's not superb, he's decently skilled though, and his paintings sell. He teaches part time at a college to make some money, but the rest is made off of selling work.
Anyways, if your teacher isnt putting in effort to make a living off of fine art, then, that's why he's not making any money with it. Does he just go to class and paint pretty pictures, and complain he can't make money? How many juried shows has he entered (and won, more importantly), how many (good) galleries has he tried getting into? Has he approached anyone in the publishing industry? Or does he just sit in the classroom, paint all day, and say he doesnt understand why he can't make a living?
Marko made a good point in his response. You didn't see the art director come to him and ask him if he was a good artist and wants a job... no, Marko approached him. As the artist, you have to go out and look, no one is going to come to you. Most artists that -could- succeed but fail, fail because they don't realize theyre in a business and need to do self-promotion.

[USER777]

Marko pretty much said it all.

But I want to ask about your teacher there. You say he's a good artist and can draw realistic pictures and all that, that he is skilled in the "academic standard." Who did he study under? There's a huge difference between learning to render off of photographs and draw pretty from life; and learning classical art. What I'm saying is, it might look great to you and your high school (you said youre 17, which would make you in high school), but how does his work compare to Jacob Collins, Tony Ryder, Ted Seth Jacobs, Odd Nerdrum, Steven Assaell, and the like? Also, what does he paint? You can paint with extreme skill, but if your paintings are boring, then your paintings are skilled and boring.
Also, how much effort is he putting in to become an artist? I brought up a bunch of skilled artists doing very well financially, but there's also less skilled artists making a decent living off of their artwork too. An acquaintence of mine is a plein air painter and is in a few smaller galleries around the USA. He's not superb, he's decently skilled though, and his paintings sell. He teaches part time at a college to make some money, but the rest is made off of selling work.
Anyways, if your teacher isnt putting in effort to make a living off of fine art, then, that's why he's not making any money with it. Does he just go to class and paint pretty pictures, and complain he can't make money? How many juried shows has he entered (and won, more importantly), how many (good) galleries has he tried getting into? Has he approached anyone in the publishing industry? Or does he just sit in the classroom, paint all day, and say he doesnt understand why he can't make a living?
Marko made a good point in his response. You didn't see the art director come to him and ask him if he was a good artist and wants a job... no, Marko approached him. As the artist, you have to go out and look, no one is going to come to you. Most artists that -could- succeed but fail, fail because they don't realize theyre in a business and need to do self-promotion.

thanks for the advice, but you got me wrong on some points. my art teacher did not EVER complain about money problems or the like. But one can't but notice that he does not have so much money. He learned painting in Russia and believe me he is really skilled. Yeah, maybe it's because his actual "style" is a little boring.. but I don't want to get too personal now. Fact is that he is very much the "artist" type, not the "business"-guy. It is not my point to judge him but he was only an example that I accidentally observed and made me sceptical about following the art path.
But thanks again, guys, for the great replies, here.

And Marko.. how the fuck can you build up a 200+ page portfolio (that means quality work) within 2 weeks or so??!!! was it all character design or also realistic renderings and so on? what medium? all pencil?

[katana]

There is actually one more school of thought to this and that is "What's the big idea?" It is something my professor used to say to me. You can go out and work on someone else's vision and further that along, making more for him (or her) than yourself. At the end of which time, your contract will end and you'll be back to eating Rahmen. On the other side, you can work and promote your own idea with the thought that it may or may not pay off in the end. Sure you might have to work a crummy night job, or perhaps if your lucky, pick up some freelance, but in the end the possibility still remains that you might end up being another Mcfarlane...(don't hate me for using him as an example...)

Chris

[Patton Art]

Fact is that he is very much the "artist" type, not the "business"-guy.

Yeah, that must be his problem then.
And he trained in Russia? That's pretty cool! Russia puts out some pretty good artists.
See, when you said your art teacher, I just thought of the average ol' high school art teacher. When I was in school, my teacher was Mr Kamer. Now everyone in the school thought he was an "amazing artist" and "very talented." But Mr. Kamer only drew cartoons, and typically they were only copied out of comic strips and comic books, very rarely drawn on his own. Needless to say, he wasnt very good or very talented. But hey, he had an art degree, so he had to be talented, huh?
That's why I was asking how good he is, and not just in comparison to other anime artist 16 year olds, but in comparison to masters of today. Nevermind that.
So yeah, get the skillz you need, then realize youre also a businessman.