Figure Drawing From The Mind, Thread

[kasap]

worked on my warrior some more, got real messy though was trying different light sources and was thinking about where some muscles starts and ends ect..
gave him a shield too because i didnt like the way his right hand touched his hip.



chris - i agree with Tetsuo about the weight, she doesnt look too comfortable in that position, will try to illustrated what i mean.

[Chris J. Anderson!]

Tetsuo, Kasap, your both right. Her weight is wrong. I realize why I missed it too, I went in a little different direction than Krispee's drawing, but I wanted to keep the arms in the same position, and messed up the weight in the process. I went too quickly. I did some studies about it here.

[Chris J. Anderson!]

I realize, after the comments about me missing the mark on weight here and there, I felt I should do more studies based on the figures weight and balance. Tell me what you all think. I think this pushed me a little more in terms of thinking more about the figures basic shapes,, and the figures motion.

[krispee]

chris: thanks for your work on my drawing, i can see what you mean about the missing part, makes sense looking at her again why she`s so 'leggy'.......head to crotch should be the same as crotch to foot......still not completely sure where the right arm and hand really should be but never mind.....
your latest works are very dynamic, like them......the girl with the kung fu action, her leg out straight seems a little odd, maybe it`s her foot and the girl to her right seems a little long in the leg....but i can see what you mean about building the box in perspective first.....

were these digital then, they look like pencil.....


krispee

[Tetsuo]

very nice indeed Chris I think you actually fixed a weight issue with the second bent knee stretch back pose...gah so hard to describe this...I will have to do a paintover tonight LOL. Anyways, I think I shall do another and make it a little less jagged this time.

-TeT-

[Chris J. Anderson!]

Yeah this is all digital, done in PS. Here's the main drawing tool I use. When I do detailed shading I usually play around with other brushes at different opacities.

[gaboartpage]

Chris J. Anderson! doood what a great thread
you just made ive miss your updates
in your sketchbook but ths is too much
just wanted to say that your comments
about non reference are very true

congratulations on your non ref figures
very good flow, mass and the best
is that expressive edge you give to your
female characters i love it

great rythim center line and how the
straight and curve strokes give tension

also the box perspective head approach
is solid . . you have a good mileage traveled
dude i can see it

very inspiring stuff here very good

Gabriel Garza

[Nortenyo]

I know this isn't completely right either, but I saw that the right heel is most likely not on the ground, which would mean the leg is lifted...in order for you to have that contre posto pose in the figure. "the S curve" I added some more muscaluture, and noticed how the left hand was weird. It may still be weird, but the anatomy is better. I think I would have changed the arm pose so as to not lock the elbow joint, but I was too lazy to redraw the arm. Overall I was just trying to make your pose work, but I think some of the problems are in the basic gesture/positioning of limbs. Damn...I'm tired....'night.

[krispee]

that`s excellent work nortenyo....works for me i think, looks like she is in mid walk cycle.....the centre of the body is off centre which would be right if she was walking....
love the rounded way you`ve done the musculature...reminds me a little of hogarth....

i tried this last night.....being on the ball of her foot would straighten her leg wouldnt it?....have included another set of lines on her leg to illustrate what i`d drawn first....



krispee

[cuzzo]

this is a very helpful post... thx a lot

[Chris J. Anderson!]

Nortenyo: Great stuff. You made me think a lot about if this pose really worked or not. So what I did was, I physically got into the pose myself and stood in front of mirrors to judge it. I was mostly analyzing if my arms could do what this figure was doing. Then I had my wife get into this pose as well, but the complete pose. I found that my pose is correct, but it is tense. The deltoid muscles will be tense, and the wrists will be tense because it is as far as they can go, and the weight would be on the left foot, like you pointed out, but the right leg can be planted. This pose is like a muscle stretch. The hip would also be stretching the buttock up and outwards. The back is bent inward, helping the hip to tense up more.

After I got into this pose, and had my wife pose, I realize why the body is more flexible than one might think. In the sketch, I indicated the blue line down the spine revealing the slight S-Curve in this pose. I think that it is sometimes difficult to know if your imaginary figure is correct or not. The best way to know, is to get into the pose yourself after y've drawn it, and using the correct CAMERA shot, because the pose also looks a certain way depending on the angle your looking at.

I pushed my wifes arms and hand around and saw that even though she got into the pose, I saw where her wrists could turn no more, and how far back her arms could actually go. And I felt the burn in my deltoids when I kept my arm twisted in that pose.

[Chris J. Anderson!]

Nortenyo: You mentioned

I think I would have changed the arm pose so as to not lock the elbow joint,

After I put my wife into the pose, I saw that the arms worked. Here is a blocky drawing I did to try to show my thoughts on this.

The left arm can go about this far towards the back, but it can't go to futher. This is the arms limit. It can't go as far as to be perfectly perpendicular from the back, it can get close, but the muscles and bone in the shoulder and back won't let it.

[Chris J. Anderson!]

Nortenyo: You pointed out

and noticed how the left hand was weird.

I redrew the left hand in that pose, I looked at my own hand to draw this and realized that the hand can be in that pose. It is at it's most twisted and stretched limit, but hands are meant to do this function. I think, maybe I should have used more precise lines to demonstrate the hand better with the right lines in the first sketch.

I noticed that the arm and hand can look differently depending also on the angle your looking at.

I may have twisted the wrist slightly too much in the very first sketch though. I do have a habit of exaggerating a little bit too much.

[Chris J. Anderson!]

Here's the right hand. I think I should not twist the wrist so much.

Nortenyo: After your comments, and all of this, I realize I should keep an eye out for how far the body can really bend or twist.




Nortenyo, what are your thoughts?

[Chris J. Anderson!]

I had a disscussion with another artist about length and size proportions of the body, and limbs. He said I need to work on that more, in terms of making sure they are correct.

I thought this study could help some of us out to see how some proportions on people can be. Some of you may already know this. I concentrated on the arms here. I learned something that I knew before, but didn't know in pure detail. I learned that body proportions are not the same on everyones body. Like arms for example........not everyone hands fall at the same place on the thighs. Nor do elbow and wrists fall perfectly the same way on different people. Some elbows bend near the belly button, and some bend far above that near the upper chest. I noticed my wifes hands stop farther up her legs than mines. I thought maybe thats because I'm a dude and she's a chick, but then I noticed in different nude figure books that their were differences in the women to other women , and the men as well.

Maybe there should be a figure drawing class where the instructor stands ten nude people next to each other so artists can clearly see the differences. Because it's difficult to see that if you only have one figure to draw pur day.

[Chris J. Anderson!]

About proportions, I also think that proportions isn't something to always take incredibly seriously all the time. Since people proportions vary, it's good to know the extreme degrees of how proportaions can be, and if you exgaggrate a little or a lot, it should still be from good figure knowledge.


Disney really exaggerates their cartoons. Look at those thick legs and that waste. But they are still cool, and believable.




Kim stylizes his illustrative detailed anime-ish characters......she's got looong legs. But it adds more to the character in this style.




Robert McGinnis's realism in his illustrations are great. At the same time, look at how he usually illuatrates a certian type of womans body type. The beauty here for each chick is all the same proportions, or at least, similar proportions. But thats his style, even though it's realism. Sexy stuff.




I know many of you already know this, I just thought it would be good to show, keep the mind aware of proportions and their pupose. So enough of this, back to the imaginitive figure drawing.

[kasap]

nice studies chris, i personaly think more about the feeling of the person and work from there. im looking for tension points in the body that you have your mad or happy and try to push it without losing the feel of it and maybe sacrificing some anatomical rules along the way.




did my own version of Nortenyo's woman, pushed the right leg more inward, gave the arms more purpose and they are supporting the weight more now.

[mentler]

This is in response to Krispee's post of the profile figure!
Just ran through how I might approach a profile pose.
The first things I think about are the line of gravity, the middle of the pose and the angle of shoulders.
Then like Chris and others I look of the position and rhythm of the spine and the leg supporting most weight.

Next I establish major masses which for me are the rib cage, pelvis and then the legs (usually the weight baring leg first)
then depending on the pose (this is important because different poses require different solutions) I position the arms and the head.
NOTE: I ALMOST NEVER DO A POSE THAT IS A STRAIGHT PROFILE!
This may be the most important aspect I am trying to demo here!!

I then keep going through the whole pose adding more information each time through ~ I make massive changes during this process even though I work directly with ink or wet media a lot. I often, but not always, work with progressively darker colours or values as I proceed i.e. ocher to sanquine to Payne's gray being my favorite palette.

This is not a final phase by any means but it is to a point that I can see where I would like to go with this figure. There are a lot of anatomical and proportional mistakes here that need to be corrected, I would push the iliac crest up closer to the rib cage of instance. I would make the hands smaller, which is something I always have to do.
Anyway Chris, Krispee et all, I hope this is the kind of thing you are looking for here.
Kasap ~ great foot in your post!!

[krispee]

mentler: i like the loose way you do your figures....i have trouble letting go in that respect, and just drawing......they are a bit hard to see though, kind of difficult to make out what exactly is going on.....the process is nice, i`m gradually getting the line of gravity thing....i haven`t had any formal training so it`s sometimes difficult for me to remember these kinds of ground rules....and make them a part of your drawing regime, if that`s the right word....

chris: that girl has some well developed triceps muscles (sorry, just showing off there)......but you`re right, it still makes anatomical sense doesn`t it....i`ve always believed that the human body has quite large parameters(anatomically speaking) into which the body can fit and still be acceptable to those viewing it......and it`s amazing how diverse i really is......
some good work there dude.....i`ll have to try and be a bit more imaginative....

and agree on kim(love his stylised work) and mcginnis.....pretty much the same but beautifully done......

krispee

[Tetsuo]

must post more...must do this again...must....

very interesting approaches to the firgure from all of you. And yes the proportion thing being different between people sometimes throws me off like crazy. Especially when drawing women from life....I have to keep reminding myself that I must pay better attention to the torso area (in particular the abdomen) and how it relates to the head, shoulders, and length of arms. Forgive me if this seems like babble but going to bed at 3 am after playing some unreal tournament isnt really helping my brain cells LOL.

[StudioPC]

Do the figures have to be nude, or can we clothe 'em?

[StudioPC]

must post more...must do this again...must....

very interesting approaches to the firgure from all of you. And yes the proportion thing being different between people sometimes throws me off like crazy. Especially when drawing women from life....I have to keep reminding myself that I must pay better attention to the torso area (in particular the abdomen) and how it relates to the head, shoulders, and length of arms. Forgive me if this seems like babble but going to bed at 3 am after playing some unreal tournament isnt really helping my brain cells LOL.

I realize I'm new, but I think of proportion like this:
Draw the head.
Neck length is roughly the length of the eye to jaw
Elbows at the bottom of the rib cage, hands halway down the thigh. Upper and lower leg is the same length. Feet included. The whole body length should be equal to six and a half of heads of your figure for an average type, more if he or she is heroic and whatnot.

[Nortenyo]

Here's the right hand. I think I should not twist the wrist so much.

Nortenyo: After your comments, and all of this, I realize I should keep an eye out for how far the body can really bend or twist.




Nortenyo, what are your thoughts?

Chris,

Thanks for the feedback...I think you are right...I may have defined some forms a bit too much...like the backs of the legs. It works for notation, but to make it more real, it should be smoother and have fat deposits. It's fun to analyse the pose, isn't. You don't really get a chance to get this kind of one on one feedback, so I thank you for participating with me on this. I think as artist we can't help but put figures where WE want them, and can easily forget where THEY really want to be, if you catch my meaning. I think it's good to start out with what you want, but then analyze it and make more real, correcting it if you can. I think the best poses capture the essense of the action, whatever that may be. Otherwise it tends to look a demo for a figure drawing class. You know what I mean?

[Nortenyo]

I really think this thread is working, when we all work on the same figure, or two. It's great because it's not just a show-off thread, but there is some real education going on here. I like to see how we all aproach the SAME pose. It's hard to see what others see until you see it for yourself. Post more!! (I can't yet, but I will later)

[Joachim]

Hehe, time to answer, since I promised I'd do it over the weekend. But, my house required too much work so I never got time....anyway, here goes.

Like said, love this thread and the idea of doing fairly real people from mind. I think that's an important ability and thing to do, even if you're an artist mostly working from reference. I'm no expert at this, I don't know all about anatomy and even though I studied some anatomy I mostly work from intuition and taste and I often just draw without thinking so deep while drawing, but I guess that's what a lot of artist do so...

Chris, I think you've done some very nice attempts. I don't want to start nitpicking minor anatomically things, as I'm no anatomy expert...But, when I look at your characters as a whole I see you work a lot with curved lines. Personally I think you can focus more on mixing hard and curved lines to bring out joints more. Also, I think it could be a good thing for you to draw more male figures, as they have less curves and then probably for you are more of a challenge...dunno if you agree ?

Mentler, you have a very interessting and distinctive style, it looks like it's been digged out of history, like some old study from DaVinci or something I don't know if you disagree with this, but for this thread, it would be cool if you tried doing separated characters doing simple poses as naturally and little extreme as possible, that is of course if you are willing to give up a bit of your very cool style for a moment.

I don't want to critizise everyone else, as I'm no teacher....but here are a few of my thoughts :

This goes for all I think, is to draw more FULL figures, then I mean from feets to head, don't leave anything out, and do simple poses. Not so much dynamic curvy poses. I know they are a lot cooler to look at, but for exersice it's very important trying to do simple boring poses and get them to look good and interessting. Do people standing straight up and down, different angles and minor differences in legs and arms and head are nice of course, but keep it simple....doing this it's actually easier to spot anatomical errors, because there's nothing "hiding the drawing" in a way.
Another thing I think is important is to do heads with angles you are not used to do. From top or below, from sideview below, heads from almost behind etc...this is something a many artist regulary stay away from, maybe not intentionally, but its more rare too see, but if you see and artist that have full understanding of this, usually most of his head angles look better, because he then understands how the head works from all angles. Have you ever thought about people doing sideview faces, sometimes you can feel that the head has two sides even though you just see one side ( a good depth) and sometimes you see sideview faces from artist and it really feels like the head has only one side (flat) because the artist doesn't really understand how to make the lines and light to create that depth the face really has.
Uhm, I don't know if any of this makes any sense to any of you, but these are just some of the thoughts I've had over the time when drawing humans

Here are a few I've made, though like I said my anatomy is very much based on feelings and intuition more than pure knowledge...and I'm sure they have plenty of errors

[mentler]

Here is my take on your forearm wrist question!

The general rule of thumb (excuse pun) is 90% up and down (see thumbnail) and 30% side to side. However this varies so much from person to person it is almost useless. Some people are not close to the 90% flexibility ~ others can touch their wrist with their fingers.
Also do not forget that this flexion is considerably different in pronation and supination. A couple of other things of note: (A) The position is wrong on your ulna furrow. (B) Length of the lines of the metatarsels to the knuckles
are to long, they should go about half way (put a pencil between your figures and make a fist)
Also note the triangle made by the ulna and the inner and outer condyles of the humerus. The width of these condyles side to side is about the same as the width of the hand at the end finger end of the metacarpels.
Just a couple of little things but they might come in handy sometime, know what I mean!

[ozan]

wow chris, this thread is moving fast. very interesting. this is a little messy, sorry. drawing with just line is my weakness. okay, one of them.

[kasap]

Joachim- im feeling your figures man, they have great balance and rithem and if you made the whole body black they still looked good. I agree with what you said about drawing more simpel poses, it is easier to draw something very dynamical cause you can push the body more but its harder to make a more subtle pose work.
mentler- thanks im trying to think about the heel and the palm? of the feet more lately which helps alot. could you post the wrist thing a bit bigger, it looks solid but i like to see ehm bigger.




think the girl works from both views but the shoulder and neck area are still messy and a bit off though. with the man i tried a look from above wich was harder to do.

[bonedog]

Wow. Thanks everyone for making such a great thread.

Joachim, I agree with all your comments, and those are some great drawings! I think the second figure has a much better sense of weight/balance than the first one. The head looks too big on the last one. Overall they're really nice, though. If you wanted to push it further you could do a longer study... with quick sketches you can just ignore a lot of detail and the viewer won't think twice about it.

Ozan: Nice drawing. Really solid... good proportions and gesture. I saw a few anatomical details that could use some work, though.

Kasap: That last one with the blue lines looks very cool. A little bit stylized and simple for the purposes of this thread, but looks good nonetheless.



Figure drawing without reference is really hard for me so I never do it... so this thread is a great opportunity for my lazy ass to improve. I figure if I could learn one or two things a day it will be well worth it. Tear me to pieces.


-Bonedog

[Lynchpin]

loving it guys, keep posting! If i produce anything of worth ill post it up.