CA lose its touch?

[Velocity Kendall]

do it kids i have sweeties and puppies in my creepy van

[Maledict]

Hold on. The CG hub link was censored.
Fucking seriously. Real classy.

What the shit? Really?

[Andrew Sonea]

What the shit? Really?

Yeah... at times there is a surprising amount of censorship that goes on. I remember a few drama episodes where it was damn hard to follow what was going on because a ton of threads/posts would get deleted almost as soon as they were posted. Higher-ups don't like people talking shit I guess, and instead try to downplay everything and pretend nothing is wrong :/

[SmallPoly]

For what it's worth, it does appear that some amount of censorship is going on at [REDACTED] as well. A search for "Jason Manley" doesn't bring up any of the drama that Duke was mentioning, just a couple threads where Jason's name is mentioned then a mod quickly closes the thread to prevent rage posts. It is still kind of odd that links to [REDACTED] are blocked here.

[Star Eater]

do it kids i have sweeties and puppies in my creepy van

[Velocity Kendall]

maybe i shouldnt have written that stuff down the side tho.

[Januz]

Seriously, links to CG hub are blocked?

I've made a crude mockup with some of the ideas from this thread. There's a slider for the challenge winners and a discovery area which is basically the lurk tool (so not only teh proes get shown in the home).
Oh yeah, I also tried to bring some of the poo back in the colors.

[Candra H]

Complete with ferns. I like it.

I wont comment on the link thing because thats none of my business, but I wanted to say a thing or two about what looks like bitching from where I'm sitting. I wasnt around when all the stuff people are talking about kicked off and I've not had any dealings with Jason Manley so like someone else said, I don't have a beef with him. He seems like a decent guy with cool ideas about art education and the balls to pull them off. That video link someone posted a page or two back was also just an ad he did for a creative project with Dell (see the top of the page for the banner). It's not like he was giving an oscar acceptance speech where thanking everyone and their Gran is a necessity.

I dunno. I get that people get unhappy about things and disagreements happen but it just seems a bit trite and petty to keep bringing them up months and years down the line. Maybe it's time for people to let bygones be bygones and move on. We're all here using the guy's forum for free, after all.

P.S. I've been reading that Nibru thread someone linked to and I don't think I've ever seen anything so cool and crazy in my life. Brilliant.

[Velocity Kendall]

I like the idea above where recent winners etc get their stuff up there.
I think J's a top bloke to be honest. Maybe those other lot have legit reasons to have a problem, maybe not, I dont really care. I hate office politics its why I work from home. call me a sycophant if you like but I like CA its fun and I fucking love my TAD days theyre superfun.

[JFierce]

I think we need a FOW section. Fern of the week.

[Velocity Kendall]

Fern The Win

[Black Spot]

[Velocity Kendall]

smash it?

[Izi]

The problems are:

1. Very bad manners - neither Jason nor anyone else should have to deal with the kinds of nonsense that goes on around here. Banning is quite alright.
2. Absence of most of the people listed at the top. (I see that was fixed - good)
3. Public access - I do not want to deal with the public on this level of swarming masses unless I am getting paid or I have to go to the airport.
4. No one appears to be at the helm - try losing your password and email address. You will get a queer link offering help that goes to a broken page.
5. Very good old threads mysteriously disappear, archived or deleted, for no other reason than they are old. Either way, they can't be found. A forum shouldn't throw out the baby with the bathwater.
6. Hooligans.

This does not create an inspiring and inviting environment in which to bask, browse and stay. If CA was a bank, it would be rather overdrawn - sure, more good goes in everyday, there's no denying that, however more careless withdrawals seem to be being made than elsewise. It just needs some simple fixes to be refreshed again like a good fountain.

This forum is behaving exactly as a number of other closed forums did before their closure. Either the owners got fed up with the unwieldiness of it all (as forums are rarely monetarily profitable in and of themselves) or people just left in the wake of bad habits, leaving an empty hall. A forum should never be down for more than an hour at a time, unless it is absolutely necessary. It kills the best kind of traffic - people who simply don't have a lot of time to spare as they are in high demand. So try not to do that.


The solutions are:

Put a strong willed, innovative and determined person at the helm who has the time to spend on improving the forums, and only the forums. They should not have any other responsibility. They should be an artist and have good manners and good breeding, and have experience with the backend of vbulletin.

Next, this person will decide which forums and subforums should be accessible to the public, and which shall be for proven artists - good enough to create a work worth putting in "Finally Finished". You can turn this into a sideshow of sorts, by publishing works recieve as a test answer for their graduation to full registered member.

The public may register as usual, and read, but not post in restricted areas.

I don't think the people "sore about tad" are the issue. How would anyone find fault with opening an art school?

[Stoat]

I just like looking at pitchers.

[Flashback]

You've changed, man! You used to be cool!

[QueenGwenevere]

Next, this person will decide which forums and subforums should be accessible to the public, and which shall be for proven artists - good enough to create a work worth putting in "Finally Finished". You can turn this into a sideshow of sorts, by publishing works recieve as a test answer for their graduation to full registered member.

The public may register as usual, and read, but not post in restricted areas.

Oh god no. That would turn it into yet another hermetically sealed dead-end "art clique" site and kill the whole community aspect, which was always the one really good thing about this place.

"Art clique" sites are pretty to look at, but beyond that they're just blogs. Nice pictures, interesting articles maybe, but... just another blog. No community, no feedback, they never really grow or evolve, and they offer no reason to hang out there on a regular basis. And then when members of the inside clique drift off, the site stagnates.

Plus, you're going to run up against that always problematic question, who decides who's worthy? And who decides who's worthy to decide who's worthy? And how do you keep it from devolving into favoritism and nepotism? (Answer: you probably can't, so it's gonna be a collection of the Super Elite Judge's best friends.)

No thanks. I like CA the way it is. It's the closest equivalent I can find to the stairwell in art school, where you can hang out and shoot the breeze with like-minded people.

[Izi]

I run a pretty large vbulletin forum that has brutal admission requirements, and yet people are banging down our door to be let in - even most of the banned members. The reason for this is you can click on practically any thread and find a fascinating discussion. Stupidity is not tolerated, nor ill manners.

"content is king"

It may be too late, but I don't think so. No forum will be able to compete with the wake left by Facebook and Google +'s ascension which allows people to meet locally more easily than ever, so the best focus for the future is small and dynamic, rather than big and bloated. The market there is certainly cornered by those with more funding.

Stairwells at art schools still exist, btw. People are generally more well behaved when you can physically attack them, so they're usually more enjoyable than the open internet.

Plus, you're going to run up against that always problematic question, who decides who's worthy? And who decides who's worthy to decide who's worthy?

Jason Manley I suppose, or his wife or someone with a vested interest in the site, chooses who. They should be someone with good character and good manners. It's his baby so he should take care of it.

Paid membership is an option, but at this point - don't get me wrong, I love CA - I wouldn't pay for this. That could be fixed.

One great example of a success in this is gotheborg.com. It's a very successful site. I would love to pay a membership fee to get access to high quality info and possibly critiques. $20 per work is what they charge - to appraise pottery. I would pay that for a critique from someone - I think I paid more than that at my atelier on average.

And these critiques can be public of course, so, people are paying you to create content, which attracts visitors and improves the site.

[QueenGwenevere]

I run a pretty large vbulletin forum that has brutal admission requirements, and yet people are banging down our door to be let in

I hate to say it, speaking as a casual passer-by, my first impressions of that forum are "generic-looking" and "wow, there's nothing here." Lots of threads with "0 posts" and "Private" don't exactly invite me to explore. I would hope CA never gives that impression.

Stairwells at art schools still exist, btw. People are generally more well behaved when you can physically attack them, so they're usually more enjoyable than the open internet.

No duh. But I'm not IN art school anymore, is kind of the point... And I miss the old stairwell. So this is the next closest thing. And I honestly don't have a problem with the behavior of people on this site. I LIKE the crowd here, it's why I'm here. If I didn't like 'em, I wouldn't hang around.

They should be someone with good character and good manners.

Yeah, and there's the problem. Who decides what's "Good Character", and why are they entitled to judge...

One great example of a success in this is gotheborg.com. It's a very successful site.

Never heard of it. And it looks like it's not even remotely an art community. It's not the same kind of site or audience as CA, so I don't see the comparison.

There's a reason why most of the big, popular, super-successful sites on the web are free... People tried to go the paid content route in the early internet days, it bombed.

[Izi]

Yes, well part of our job is scaring away the timid and the flippant, certainly. The general public of that sort has no business being there, they tire use endlessly. Yet the quality of its content has improved immensely from when it was a level 5 site 2 years ago, for those whom it is intended to be a haven. It is an invaluable resource to those who must have a lab for that subject.

I am certainly not interested in stairwells or chatting, I am interested in art and making art, when I go to an art forum. Certainly there are areas on CA where you can yammer on as long as you so please, and this wouldn't change a thing about that. At any rate, is it good for CA to be known as a place to loiter about and chat, while someone else pays the bandwidth bill? That seems a bit selfish. I certainly do not want to listen to idle chatter when I am working on an art piece. What I am proposing would allow members to have their cake and eat it too.

If you listened to what I had said, you would see that I stated exactly what gotheburg.com was. In its own circle of antiques and appraisals, it is quite well known. Solipsism is quite one of the problems of the sort of chattering that goes on here.

[Arshes Nei]

1. I have to ask before moving any forums order. They may be set up a certain way for other reasons.

2. Some of these "Suggestions" make me want to bang my head against the wall. Not the ones about pushing the challenge areas though, those are great. It's the reason I started lurking on CA. I bought Mat Dixxon's book after seeing his entry which is the staple of COW It's just it may be set up for other reasons why I can't move the forums (see 1.) . There's also broken stuff during the move so I have to get in touch with IT to find out what happened to the icons and other missing stuff.

[Maledict]

The problems are:

4. No one appears to be at the helm - try losing your password and email address. You will get a queer link offering help that goes to a broken page.

This forum is behaving exactly as a number of other closed forums did before their closure. Either the owners got fed up with the unwieldiness of it all (as forums are rarely monetarily profitable in and of themselves) or people just left in the wake of bad habits, leaving an empty hall. A forum should never be down for more than an hour at a time, unless it is absolutely necessary. It kills the best kind of traffic - people who simply don't have a lot of time to spare as they are in high demand. So try not to do that.


The solutions are:

Put a strong willed, innovative and determined person at the helm who has the time to spend on improving the forums, and only the forums. They should not have any other responsibility. They should be an artist and have good manners and good breeding, and have experience with the backend of vbulletin.

Next, this person will decide which forums and subforums should be accessible to the public, and which shall be for proven artists - good enough to create a work worth putting in "Finally Finished". You can turn this into a sideshow of sorts, by publishing works recieve as a test answer for their graduation to full registered member.

The public may register as usual, and read, but not post in restricted areas.

Pretty much definitely agree with Naomi on this - There really doesn't seem to be anyone at the helm. Forums were down twice as I recall, and there was a bit of confusion as to what was going on (It's not difficult at all to put a simple "We're down for the moment. We'll be back soon, the gremlins are attacking. Sorry! " simple message as a temporary measure - getting vbulletin error codes is not going to go over well, perception wise, at all.

Even though I guess by pure numbers and statistics, ca.org gets more visitors and traffic than, say, cghub - it just "feels" dead to me.

And in regards to the censorship thing - that's absolute bullshit. If you did something wrong, take the hit. Censoring *anything* about the past will make people like me, who may not know anything about what happened, enraged. I don't tolerate censorship, EVER. Self censorship, yes, fine. But censoring others for bringing up what they believe to be valid points, that you don't want discussed because it could be potentially embarrassing? Bullshit.

[Raoul Duke]

Izi- Groan Button! Groan Button! Nothing but terrible ideas dude. The very suggestion that you should pay for crits means you are missing the point. There is a payed membership based section. It's called TAD. If bandwidth is really a problem, then we can do external img links. Many of us already do. No big deal, just paintovers will be a little less casual.

[Velocity Kendall]

I just like looking at pitchers.

eggzackly

[QueenGwenevere]

The very suggestion that you should pay for crits means you are missing the point.

Exactly. This is a site where a lot of art students come to mingle and share experiences and learn, art students are broke, art students are NOT going to pay for casual crits and feedback, and they shouldn't be forced to - if they need to pay, they'll simply go to the next site over where they can do it for free. This is pretty much why the crit system on DA failed, all the people who really need it can't use it because they can't afford the membership fees. So, it doesn't get used.

If people really want in-depth feedback from a teacher, that's called "taking a class", and yeah, that would be TAD. Or buying the downloads and streaming content.*

I really can't get behind this whole "keep out the impure riff-raff" attitude. I know too many people who started out as awkward annoying seemingly hopeless teenage beginners and eventually blossomed into stellar talent. If they'd been treated as "riff-raff" in their early days and had no chance to rub elbows with more seasoned artists, that might not have happened. Or it certainly wouldn't happen here. I'm for being open and encouraging new artists. You never know who's going to turn into what.

*(Okay, the streaming classes being unavailable is actually the one real gripe I have with the site right now. But I assume they'll be back eventually.)

**(And no, a site aimed at antique collectors looking to buy and sell their antiques is NOT the same business model as an art forum for artists and students who want to share information. What works for gotheburg.com is not necessarily what will work for CA.org. Apples and oranges.)

[Velocity Kendall]

Oh god no. That would turn it into yet another hermetically sealed dead-end "art clique" site and kill the whole community aspect, which was always the one really good thing about this place.

"Art clique" sites are pretty to look at, but beyond that they're just blogs. Nice pictures, interesting articles maybe, but... just another blog. No community, no feedback, they never really grow or evolve, and they offer no reason to hang out there on a regular basis. And then when members of the inside clique drift off, the site stagnates.

Plus, you're going to run up against that always problematic question, who decides who's worthy? And who decides who's worthy to decide who's worthy? And how do you keep it from devolving into favoritism and nepotism? (Answer: you probably can't, so it's gonna be a collection of the Super Elite Judge's best friends.)

No thanks. I like CA the way it is. It's the closest equivalent I can find to the stairwell in art school, where you can hang out and shoot the breeze with like-minded people.

Hail Queen Gwenevere and long live the anarcho-communist liberal utopia of the stairwell, yo.

By the way Izi, if everything is doomed as you say, make the most of it, innit! It might all be gone tomorrow and Id miss you!

[Izi]

Izi- Groan Button! Groan Button! Nothing but terrible ideas dude. The very suggestion that you should pay for crits means you are missing the point. There is a payed membership based section. It's called TAD. If bandwidth is really a problem, then we can do external img links. Many of us already do. No big deal, just paintovers will be a little less casual.

I suppose I wasted my money for years getting critiqued by a master artist then. What is the point I am missing? That master artists should be altruistic, willing to drop everything when I need an in-depth critique? People are more willing to give of their time if they are getting some token of respect and recognition in return. I am not sure why new and young artists would be treated as riff-raff, or that free critiques would not also exist in a more formalized enviroment. I am also not at all certain art students are broke - the money, or compensation, to pay for the schooling comes from somewhere - in the case of grants, from the school's bet on the student's performance. I was offered pay to do a class at TESC, and I told them I would just do it for free, so I am certainly not against free crits.

It would save me time and thus money to be able to choose who I wanted a crit from, and when, and receive the assurance the person was getting compensated fairly for their expertise. I do have the means to get many free crits from many people, but a master's critique? That is a rare thing, and well worth paying for in my opinion. I learn more from a good master's critique of another person's work than I do from a fellow student's critique of my work - though alot of that can be helpful, it is no comparison for those familiar with the atelier environment. They are teachers for a reason.

You're taking this all way too personally, Queen Gwenevere. I am not saying you are "impure riff raff", so kindly stop trying to typecast me as this villain who is trying to oppress you.

[Velocity Kendall]

Do you teach the class?

[Raoul Duke]

Izi-
If you feel it was money well spent, then it was money well spent.

I would never pay for a crit, because it's just an outside opinion. Even if it is a helpful expert opinion. A lesson with instruction, demonstration and back and fourth interaction is worth paying for.

A critique does not cover fixing what you are having trouble with. It only points out the mistakes and might have a few ideas on how to fix them. You have to fix those problems with pre-existing skill.

[Ian Barker]

A bit off topic, but does anyone know what happened to the jobs section of CA? It was really helpful.