Artist cheating clients out of money.

[Mr.Thorns]

I often frequent Deviant Art's Job Offers Forums (Yes I know...) and ran across this posting where a client was "Looking to spend $50-75 depending on skill level and quality". I decided just to check around some of the people who were applying when I ran into a interesting exchange of comments.

"I'll do it for $20 I'll sketch it up and show you if you don't like you won't have to pay then I'll upload a low quality pic if you don't like you won't have to pay then I'll upload a high quality pic you'll have to pay"- This comment came from a very new artist with...Er...Not the best of work. (Not trying to be rude!) Who I say normally charges that much.

In responds he got this "if the client is offering a rate you shouldn't go lowering it to the floor. if you want to apply, show your portfolio. but if the client doesn't ask for bids you should refrain from the unethical behaviour of offering the work for peanuts,
and much less for free, if you don't need the money go to the projects forum where people look for artists but can't afford one."

What are your thoughts about people who over charge clients just because of their budgets? IMO I think an artist should always stick with prices and not alter them based on client. I mean you come up with your prices based off of how much time/complexity/profit you would like to make, so why charge more just cause you can? I think it really takes a hit at the integrity of that artist. I hardly see it as undercutting.

*I also mean this not in industry standards but in terms of DA (Young non-professional artist/not commercial jobs)

Edit* Maybe I'm really saying this weird??? I'm asking would it be correct for this guy who is a beginner (DA beginner, not industry beginner) to charge 2-3 times more because the client has that much money

[Mr.Thorns]

Er- Also I'm sorry if this is in the wrong location! Wasn't sure if it was better to ask here or in the General Off-Topic

[dpaint]

Artists should have a base rate they charge for their work and it should be set at industry standards. Having said that though if a client wants to pay more than that rate then that is the clients decision and the price could be affected by many things, time frame to complete the project, complexity of the project, Licensing rights- its not a black and white issue. If you are offering work for less than industry standards then you are a scab. In the USA industry standard is at least 25 an hour.

[Mr.Thorns]

The client just said "Looking to spend $50-75 depending on skill level and quality" not that he spending that much on whoever he hired though. I mean it's fine if the clients doesn't mind paying more but my issue is artist are greatly increasing their rate just cause of that. It's like if I drew stick figures my rate should be lower than other more experiences artist. It really seems more like misleading the client into thinking they charge that much rather than the client deciding they want to spend their whole budget on that said artist.

[Elwell]

IMO I think an artist should always stick with prices and not alter them based on client. I mean you come up with your prices based off of how much time/complexity/profit you would like to make, so why charge more just cause you can? I think it really takes a hit at the integrity of that artist.

So, if I do an a job for an ad agency with millions of dollars in billing annually, I should charge them the same as if I do a flyer for a local club? Give me a fucking break.
If a client has a budget, and you do work for that budget, BY DEFINITION you aren't overcharging them. And if your work isn't professional quality, the way to get work is to make your work better, not try try to be cheaper than anyone else. The response that poster got was ABSOLUTELY the right advice.

[Mr.Thorns]

Artists should have a base rate they charge for their work and it should be set at industry standards. Having said that though if a client wants to pay more than that rate then that is the clients decision and the price could be affected by many things, time frame to complete the project, complexity of the project, Licensing rights- its not a black and white issue. If you are offering work for less than industry standards then you are a scab. In the USA industry standard is at least 25 an hour.

I can understand that if this was on CA but on DA these jobs aren't really professional. In this case it was a small time commission for non commercial use with lots of nooby artist applying. It would be insane for them to charge industry standards. (I suppose I should have specific the level of work they were looking for)

[Elwell]

The client just said "Looking to spend $50-75 depending on skill level and quality" not that he spending that much on whoever he hired though. I mean it's fine if the clients doesn't mind paying more but my issue is artist are greatly increasing their rate just cause of that. It's like if I drew stick figures my rate should be lower than other more experiences artist. It really seems more like misleading the client into thinking they charge that much rather than the client deciding they want to spend their whole budget on that said artist.

Trust me, of all the problems in the world, artists overcharging for work is about number 148,623.

[dpaint]

No you don't understand what goes into a job. Its not what the end result is, its client satisfaction and creativity. Saul Bass was paid hundreds of thousands of dollars to millions of dollars to design logos. Its not always about how hard it is to draw. Here are just a few of them
http://annyas.com/saul-bass-logo-design-then-now/

Bass was paid 2 million to develop this logo in 1968

[Elwell]

DA ≠ anything resembling the real world.

[Azu]

This is a deviantart job for a random person who will probably use it for a fanfiction, not a multi-billion dollar job. I can understand everyones logic if this was in a proffessional setting.. but from the looks of OP, what it seems like is someone charging someone else 75$ even though they normally charge $20 just because the client has the money. You cannot expect someone who just picked up anime art yesterday to charge industry standard prices, or expect anyone to pay industry standards when its nothing but small time individual jobs for 15 year old girls.

In a more individual setting, if I was the client, I would see it as "This fuckers charging me triple just because I have the money"

[Mr.Thorns]

I do agree with you Elwell when you put it into the sense of the real world but I was more asking in the example I gave. I mean I really do understand for real jobs it is very different but for DA terms I really find it kind of crappy to try and charge a lot just cause you can. This isn't any type industry jobs posted on DA so you can't really take how they work into DA standards.

(Looking at my opening post I see I prob should have been a bit more specific as to the terms of everything >> Just wanted to avoid a textwall)

[Elwell]

The original job listing was for "$50-75 depending on skill level and quality." So, I assume they had an idea of the quality they were looking for, and what (to them) a fair price was for it.

[Mr.Thorns]

Exactly, that's the thing though. If someone who already does MUCH lower level art then how is it undercutting? It's them giving their prices based off of their level so it's not like their taking a job from anyone or really any threat. That's why I said imo it would be a wrong to charge $50-$75

[Elwell]

But if their art sucks, they're not going to get the job anyway, so what they would charge is a moot point. And if their art doesn't suck, they should be paid fairly.

[Azu]

But if their art sucks, they're not going to get the job anyway, so what they would charge is a moot point. And if their art doesn't suck, they should be paid fairly.

Thats going beyond the point to a different point. From the looks, it looks like some guy was charging his base price of $20 which was a normal price for his level of art. Then he got attacked because he was undercutting others who were charging more, despite the fact that they drew better anyways. Thats the basis of the question, would it be correct for this guy who is a beginner (DA beginner, not industry beginner) to charge 2-3 times more because the client has that much money.

It seems more of a situation of people charging much more than they normally do because some guy has money. Thats kinda like a carnival altering their admission prices depending on how much money each customer has.

[Mr.Thorns]

Thats the basis of the question, would it be correct for this guy who is a beginner (DA beginner, not industry beginner) to charge 2-3 times more because the client has that much money.

Well shit, Azu. That's exactly what I was trying to ask. Maybe my my brain is going stupid from all my coffee and I worded it all weird. Glad you got it though!

[Charlie D]

Exactly, that's the thing though. If someone who already does MUCH lower level art then how is it undercutting? It's them giving their prices based off of their level so it's not like their taking a job from anyone or really any threat. That's why I said imo it would be a wrong to charge $50-$75

The $20 quote is probably more a result of them having little idea about the costs involved running a business.

[dpaint]

some guy walks up to you and offers you 100 bucks for your backpack. You say its only worth 25 bucks and he can buy one at Walmart for that price. He says I don't care I want yours and I'll give you 100 for it. You refuse to sell it because you think your cheating him and walk away. Who's the idiot in that scenario?

[keeptime]

I took a gander at that thread. This is direct from the customer: "I'm looking for someone who has the skill, talent, and expertise to charge at minimum $40+ for their time and effort". This artist shouldn't even be applying for the job in the first place if he doesn't belief he has the qualifications to do it (and he definitely doesn't. His gallery is full of crap sonic recolours and bad manga ripoffs). Just because I can put a table together from IKEA doesn't mean I can apply for a job to build a house.

[Azu]

some guy walks up to you and offers you 100 bucks for your backpack. You say its only worth 25 bucks and he can buy one at Walmart for that price. He says I don't care I want yours and I'll give you 100 for it. You refuse to sell it because you think your cheating him and walk away. Who's the idiot in that scenario?

I think you're missing the point. It's more like someone going "I have 100$ to spend on a backpack" and some guy with a ripped up stained one says "Take this one for 20$ dude" and everyone yells at him "YOU SHOULD CHARGE $100"


In your scenario it would be correct if the client went to the small time artist and offered him 100$. It was the other way around, its someone going to a listing and offering them shit FOR 100$. Whether the client declines their offer or not is a different point all together. The entire point is "Is it okay for that artist to overcharge and pretty much deceive the client into thinking thats how much he always charges, because the client can afford it" It matters not if he would get the job or not. It's more on morals.

[Mr.Thorns]

Yea but that's not really the point I'm after (Not to mention on DA it's a losing battle trying to get artist to think before they post)

[Charlie D]

The person could have spent 5 hours on that Mr Thomas. Should we pay him/her a fair price or slave wage??

[dpaint]

Its the decision of the person with the money, period. Anyone can apply for any job they want. It doesn't matter you think they aren't qualified.

[Azu]

some guy walks up to you and offers you 100 bucks for your backpack. You say its only worth 25 bucks and he can buy one at Walmart for that price. He says I don't care I want yours and I'll give you 100 for it. You refuse to sell it because you think your cheating him and walk away. Who's the idiot in that scenario?

Thats backwards actually. It's more like someone saying they have $100 and wants to buy a backpack, and some guy with a crappy ripped up stained backpack says "you can have this one for $25" and everyone rages at him because he should charge $100 because thats how much money the guy has.

In OPs story, the client didnt go to the artist, the artist applied to a listing and charged what he normally charges. Then other artists got mad for not overpricing his work 3-4x. By that logic everyone should charge EXACTLY the same. EVERYONES price will be identical regardless of skill.

[Mr.Thorns]

Dude that is another point and I wasn't even debating over that...I was asking should it be correct for this guy who is a beginner (DA beginner, not industry beginner) to charge 2-3 times more because the client has that much money. Not if he should be applying for the job int he first place.

[dpaint]

Hes not charging more after the fact he is applying for a higher paying job. He isn't setting the rate, the client is, so he's not charging the rate, he is accepting the job if he gets it. You must not support yourself because anybody can see that is how you make more money. If you work at Joe Blows Coffee and they pay you minimum wage and the guy from the Starbucks down the street comes in and says come work for me I'll pay you more and give you benefits for doing the exact same job you say no?

[Azu]

some guy walks up to you and offers you 100 bucks for your backpack. You say its only worth 25 bucks and he can buy one at Walmart for that price. He says I don't care I want yours and I'll give you 100 for it. You refuse to sell it because you think your cheating him and walk away. Who's the idiot in that scenario?

Thats backwards actually. It's more like some guy saying he has $100 and wants to buy a backpack, and some dude offers his shitty beat up torn backpack for $25. Then everyone else rages at him for not charging $100.

In OPs story, the client didn't come to the artist, but the other way around. The artist applied to a listing, and offered to charge his base price of $20 when OTHER artists got pissed that he didn't overcharge 3-4x just because the person who made the listing could afford it.


Should the artist have applied in the first place? No, hes not ready. But the original questions was if he should have risen his price, not if he should have applied.

[keeptime]

Right, I'm just saying if the client wants someone who charges at least $40 and you think your work is worth only $20 there's probably a huge gap in expectations and you won't get hired anyways. What do I know though, I don't do commissions.

Anyways, I don't really understand what the big deal is here. dpaint and elwell covered it just fine. If someone's willing to pay you more, let them. If you don't think you're worth that pay, don't apply to the job.

edit: aaah this thread is moving so fast

[Azu]

Thats assuming the client was going to spend that much on a single drawing. The client said they were looking to spend of that much. It does not mean "Im going to pay you this much" It just means "Try to keep your prices around this much, but I can't afford much higher"

If someone wants to spend $50 on art, it means they will spend that much. Not that they will pay someone that much for lets say a single character design"

Thats like if someone offered you a job that paid $5000 and you told them thats how much you charge for a single piece. You don't know if the client wants multiple illustrations/etc. All you know is how much they want to spend, so then why would you increase your prices to match it exactly?

[Mr.Thorns]

@ keeptime
Yea it really is moving fast >>

That's still going beyond the point though. I know they aren't going to get hire anyway most like but I wanted to know a more moral point, I suppose, if he should jack up his prices because of the budget.

Dpaint and Elwell points are completely different though. They are under the assumption that the client is approaching them. When in fact it's the artist going to the client and being attacked to "stop undercutting" What they said didn't really answer my question of would it be correct for this guy who is a beginner (DA beginner, not industry beginner) to charge 2-3 times more because the client has that much money. I'm not looking for anything else liek he wouldn't get hired or stuff like that. Just based off the question should he rise his prices?