Anti-drug-college-students

[Anthonycarey]

i think one of the big problems is "drugs" is used to encompass harmless or only slightly harmful things like weed and mushrooms and e, and very dangerous ones like heroin and crack.

its like saying you shouldnt have a house cat because tigers will kill you, ie scaremongering.

That's pretty much exactly it.. And I have to say as a tattoo artist I'm almost constantly meeting people who do or are on drugs and generally they only ask once if you would like to participate and once I politely decline it's almost never brought up again, I don't think ive been pressured to do a drug in my adult life.. I'm sure as teenagers there's a lot of pressure because you want your friends to be into the same stuff as you but as an adult that kinda fades and is much less of an issue.

And I wish people would stop using college students as examples, there is an entire other world besides college. College seems like its own universe where people act retarded and do stupid things in abundance, even the students not using drugs. It's like that perfect age where your hormones completely over ride your logical thinking.

I've seen a lot of things in my adult life, but some of the things people are saying about drug users seem like some crazy stuff out of a made for tv movie or an afterschool special.. In my line of work I'm around drugs users most of the time and most of them aren't crazy addicts or retarded from brain damage, they are regular people with jobs and families.. You know who the jobless failures at life I see are, they are the alcoholics. People who convince themselves they need to drink to function, then continue to drink until they can't function.. The only people I've known to overdose, overdosed on Xanax and loratabs..

This is just personal experience living very close to that type of culture, but not participating in drug use myself.

[Velocity Kendall]

this'll make you cry

[Kamber Parrk]

I'll basically go with Kev on this. But, VK is pretty spot on re his analysis on various intoxicants.

But, DANG, VK, yer pretty harsh in re MY favorite intoxicant-- alcohol!

I can handle it. And, I likes it fine.

But, re the American way: were it not for "John Barleycorn," many of my fellow American citizens would would not be able to pin badges upon their blue uniforms and draw generous salaries and kick-ass benefits for tasering into submission their fellow citizens who've had a "few too many!"

All Part of God's Great Plan, doncha know!

[Dusty]

But, DANG, VK, yer pretty harsh in re MY favorite intoxicant-- alcohol!

I am not sure where his chart came from, but it was based off of some study last year some time (I recall the facebook posts popping up by all of my friends). A lot of debate about alcohol being on the top, definitely.
But I think the idea is that out of all of them, it has the highest chance of killing you or someone else if you abuse it.

*IF YOU ABUSE IT* being the key for every drug ever, of course.
"I can handle it" doesn't really matter, though, as clearly millions of people abuse alcohol every day, ruin their lives and the lives of their friends and family by being irresponsible with it.

That said, I love it and drink often. Too bad my body is starting to tell me to fuck off about it, though.

[D.Labruyere]

Running through a forest with a Grizzly in hot pursuit can be a mind expanding, life altering experience, too.

If I find myself in the position that I want to run through a forest with a Grizzly ready to bite my leg off I should be able to buy a ticket to North America climb through frost, snow and ice towards the nearest cave around 2000 meters high, while my frostbitten hand holds a stick ready to poke Miss Grizzly and her cub, Grizzly Junior with the soul purpose to find out the result. And I should be able to do that without anyone telling me I am not allowed to do so because i might hurt myself. However, the other way is equally true, if someone thinks it is a good plan that I use a hypodermic needle to inject a chemical compound into my blood veins because it will make my brain go Whoopee! he to can go fuck himself. I don't think anyone needs a law or a person who decides what advice you should follow concerning drugs because I think there is not a single person on this planet who is capable of making that decision for you.

That said, I totally agree with you that drugs will not make you a creative person or an artist or anything that remotely looks like that.

[Velocity Kendall]

i dont need to link to that bill hicks video where he makes this point, cos youve probably seen it as many times as i have.
so how about this interesting for and against article about drugs in music, and this amusing and very true to life ode to acid by the great Jeff Lewis:

[OldJake666]

Hi everyone,

I don't really participate in this community anymore but I decided to post in this thread because it's a subject very close to my heart. Drugs are certainly a complex issue with many factors to consider. We must consider the particular drug, the person using it, how often they are using it, in what context they are using it in, and, perhaps most importantly, what their intention is. Drugs have the potential to be negative if one of those factors is out of alignment, but regardless, psychedelics completely changed my life in a dramatic and positive way and I advocate their use to anyone that is mature enough and capable of utilizing the psychedelic experience.

The most important thing to note is something VK already has, which is that we put a great number of extremely different substances, ranging from tobacco, to heroin, to Benadryl, to LSD, under the stupidly broad label "drugs." It's somewhat akin to the art world. How can we seriously put the Mona Lisa, DuChamp's The Fountain, the Eiffel Tower, and a hipster chick masturbating into a can of beans under the same label? And yet it's all "art." My interest in drugs lies solely in the visionary compounds, the psychedelics. And I will try to be as specific as possible in labeling them as psychedelics and not "drugs" to alleviate the mass confusion that is bound to happen when we lump together these extremely different things.

It's rather disheartening to come upon a thread about drugs and to not see any mention about psychedelics used as a spiritual or therapeutic device. It's the cultural bias to look at those using psychedelics as "just getting fucked up" and even some people who take them have this perspective. But that is because most people don't comprehend the gravity of the experience they are having. They don't understand the sacred significance of the event.

Psychedelic drugs, such as psilocybin mushrooms, Peyote, Wachumo (San Pedro Cacti,) Soma (Fly Algaric Mushroom,) and Ayahuasca have been used as visionary catalyst by shamans of native tribespeople for the greater percentage of the existence of our species. It's only more recently (over the past few thousand years,) after the church repressed a great amount of knowledge of these practices in both the new and old world, that the common people lost touch with those practices. But before then the use of those sacraments was the basis of essentially all world religions. They were a direct link to the realm of spirit, and to gods, and sources of knowledge that exist outside the boundaries of material reality.

The link between spiritual practice and psychedelics has not been limited to shamanistic religions alone. In the 1960's, the use of LSD, mescaline, and other psychedelics provoked spiritual awakenings in a great number of people, and led to many pursuing a spiritual life. The term that has been given to a psychedelic used for a spiritual purpose is an "Entheogen," that which generates the god within, or that which points towards inner divinity. There are many books about this subject, the most famous being Be Here Now.

Even if not used in the context of spiritual transcendence, psychedelics hold the potential for dramatic positive psychological growth. LSD and psilocybin have been given to fatally ill cancer patients to help them cope with death, and they have been used to treat schizophrenia, OCD, PTSD, and a variety of other psychological disorders. For me, my early experiences with psychedelics two years ago opened me up to and reminded me of a loving energy that was the core of my being. This was an energy that I hadn't felt since I was a child, and the experiences completely shifted my emotional framework from a place of seeking to a place of giving love.

And that is only one of an astoundingly large amount of positive shifts that have taken place as a result of using psychedelics, of which I've taken a variety (LSD, psilocybin, DMT, 2C-E, among others) with some regularity over the past two years and continue to do so. One of the most dramatic have been creative and artistic shifts, and this is a place that I don't even understand the debate about on an art forum. Psychedelics DRAMATICALLY enhance creativity. Of course this could be to some extent dependent on the individual but for the most part is very blatant and apparent. A great number of my favorite artists, including Android Jones, HR Giger, Robert Venosa, Ernst Fuchs, and Alex Grey, have been HIGHLY influenced by the use of psychedelics. A certain digital visionary, who's name I won't mention out of respect, dubbed them "artistic steroids." And if we were to list musicians that were influenced by them we'd need a whole new thread to fit the space! Steve Jobs also acknowledged his experiences with LSD as one of the most important 2 or 3 things he ever did in his life and very much attributed his creative abilities to those experiences.

And so I can only encourage other artists to take psychedelics, if only once in their life. But don't jump blindly into the experience! Read essential psychedelic literature like Huxley's Doors of Perception. Know what you're taking! Read up on dosage and tips for safe practice on Erowid and other websites. And make sure what you're taking is from a trusted and reliable source, and is actually what they say it is (you can purchase drug tests online to check this.)

But most importantly, know yourself! I came into the psychedelic experience as an extremely introspective person, and I had already been practicing meditation regularly for about a year and a half so I knew my psychology very well prior to the experience. I also came to it with the entheogenic perspective in mind which very much impacted my experience. I did it alone (I still journey alone most often) but being with a caring friend can be very helpful if things become difficult.

I know this is a touchy subject, but I wanted to lend my perspective to this discussion. We all know the harms that can be inflicted by irresponsible drug use, but the positives are too often overlooked.

Love,
Jake

[Stoat]

You can't unring a bell. Some drug experiences change you -- the psychedelics often do -- and you might have been better before the changes. There are half a dozen youthful experiences I wish I could take back, and a couple that I really wish I could take back.

[Velocity Kendall]

great post Jacob

[OldJake666]

I'm also very open about my experiences and if you send me a private message I'd be happy to talk anyone about this over Skype or phone. Especially because I know how difficult it can be to be alone with this perspective and a psychedelic community can be very helpful to integrate these experiences.

[s.ketch]

Why do we have to do special pleading for drug use but we can generalize everywhere else? Would you feel the same way for guns VK? Does it not depend on the gun and the person?

We generalize drug users because they are susceptible to the same statistical analysis everyone else is. We do it because it works. Take a look at what actually happens with drug use rather than taking Terrance Mckenna and Timothy Leary's word for it. It's quite fallacious to say the effects of drugs depend on the person because they worked for you. Which is what drug activists constantly say, look at the individual, not the big picture. Why? Will we see something you don't like? And we're supposed to take the word of people who openly consume drugs and readily admit it changes their personality and way of thinking? Do you realize how crazy that sounds?

[Oden]

Why do we have to do special pleading for drug use but we can generalize everywhere else? Would you feel the same way for guns VK? Does it not depend on the gun and the person?

We generalize drug users because they are susceptible to the same statistical analysis everyone else is. We do it because it works. Take a look at what actually happens with drug use rather than taking Terrance Mckenna and Timothy Leary's word for it. It's quite fallacious to say the effects of drugs depend on the person because they worked for you. Which is what drug activists constantly say, look at the individual, not the big picture. Why? Will we see something you don't like? And we're supposed to take the word of people who openly consume drugs and readily admit it changes their personality and way of thinking? Do you realize how crazy that sounds?

I can't speak for myself, but if it's really true that 'drug activists' constantly say 'look at the individual, not the big picture', perhaps it's because the 'big picture' with regards to drugs represents not so much a lucid, rational, and/or scientific view of the potential harm and benefits associated with specific drugs, as a big fucking gong-show of cultural values and biases, paranoia, propaganda, emotional decision-making, cherry-picking of data, and ignorance. And I admit that goes both ways.

[Velocity Kendall]

Why do we have to do special pleading for drug use but we can generalize everywhere else? Would you feel the same way for guns VK? Does it not depend on the gun and the person?

We generalize drug users because they are susceptible to the same statistical analysis everyone else is. We do it because it works. Take a look at what actually happens with drug use rather than taking Terrance Mckenna and Timothy Leary's word for it. It's quite fallacious to say the effects of drugs depend on the person because they worked for you. Which is what drug activists constantly say, look at the individual, not the big picture. Why? Will we see something you don't like? And we're supposed to take the word of people who openly consume drugs and readily admit it changes their personality and way of thinking? Do you realize how crazy that sounds?

yes, i do realise how crazy that sounds. i didnt understand any of it.

guns, generalisation, timothy leary, indivduals, drug activists, taking someones word for it... huh? you totally lost me with your post.

all i said was everyone should make up their own mind on drugs, but i like some of the ones lower on that graph quite a bit, and i explained what id found them to do. take it or leave it. kev likes social drinking and says it ok to too. I agree with him. if you feel youre the type of person who enjoys flying around in their imagination and looking at the world around them, take mushrooms, you'll like it. if that doesnt sound like you, dont take em.
some people like to travel, others like to stay home. i like travelling, but i dont really mind whether you do or not.
if you want to seriously mess up your life, take smack. if not, dont. up to you.
i wasnt expecting anyone to take anyones word for it dude.

[kev ferrara]

Why would anybody listen to Timothy Leary or Terrence McKenna? They're just a couple of old drug users who died, (probably in part from issues arising from their drug use). They didn't liberate anybody. The idea that you are expanding your mind or getting religion by hallucinating is childish, pseudoscientific bullshit. All Leary and McKenna did was build a cult of personality around themselves, supplemented by some eye-roll worthy stoner philosophy, so they could continue to get fucked up while credulous sheep paid their bills. Oh, those great men who got high! Such a contribution they have made! And what happens to all the sheep who don't get income from other sheep to pay for their addictions? They just add drug addiction to their list of problems. What a joke.

Velocity, do not PM me anymore. Your taunts don't work. They're childish. I think you are a completely negative presence on these boards.

[Candra H]

I havent read all the posts in here but it is pretty interesting that a discussion about drugs gets so much attention while other stuff goes unnoticed. Heh. That's just funny to me.

I used to take drugs a lot and for a long time. Nothing major like heroin or cocaine but I dabbled in lots of other things. I also drank (still do occasionally - maybe once or twice a year) and smoked. All of that from around twelve years old until I hit thirty. I had a lot of bad trips and weird and wonderful experiences but what stuck with me most is the feeling that I wasted a lot of my life getting wasted.

It got to the stage where I couldnt function as a normal human being and I knew it was time to give it all up, get my head straight, and grow up. I cant speak for anyone else but for me, drinking and getting wasted is what I did when I was young and hadnt figured life out yet. As I got older, I got wise to it and recognised it's all just a distraction from reality.

Absolutely, it's fun as fuck at the time, and when we're young, we want to push boundaries and try things out and experiment, or experience things we're not supposed to. It's all part of growing and learning. And that's fine. But one thing I would never do is encourage anyone to try drugs for any reason. They'll have to figure that one out on their own.

Anyway, just my two bob's worth.

[Velocity Kendall]

I think you are a completely negative presence on these boards.

huh why?

[Qitsune]

Why do we have to do special pleading for drug use but we can generalize everywhere else? Would you feel the same way for guns VK? Does it not depend on the gun and the person?

I tried shooting someone with psylocibin once, nothing happened. Did you look at the chart posted where the pale blue line is the harm done to others? Yeah alcohol was very bad and other substances like heroin. But say, mushroom and mdma, lsd? not really any harm to others, why is that? Maybe because the most harmful thing someone on mdma is liable to do is hug you and pet your hair. I have been at several raves over the years, around thousands of people on mdma or mushrooms or other recreational drugs and I have never seen a single fight, a single act of violence.

[Shahan]

this keeps showing up in my profile's thread post feed or something. This is getting way more attention that it should.
Lets watch this guy's videos...

[Velocity Kendall]

And what happens to all the sheep who don't get income from other sheep to pay for their addictions? They just add drug addiction to their list of problems.

you cant get addicted to mushrooms or LSD... and i've repeatedly advised people avoid coke and other addictive drugs.. so what actually is your beef here Kev?

reading back all you've done in this thread is say i'm stupid, anyone who listens to Terence Mckenna is stupid, anyone who experiments with hallucinogenics is stupid (which Jacob above clearly is not) and ranted about things that no one actually said like drugs are cool, or drugs will turn you into a creative person.

Considering you're accusing me of being a negative influence, you say a lot of horrible negative things that seem designed to bum people out and make you look big, and them small. the only positive thing you said was that its absolutely ok to drink socially. thats literally it. the rest is just abuse and ranting.
Your attitude seems to be, Im Kev Ferrera, unknown comic artist, troll, i know best about everything, youre all sheep, and if you disagree with me Ill follow you around saying stuff like "youre a completely negative influence on these boards" because I can. its really strange.
sort of the exact opposite of the plurality of experience and opinion these boards represent actually...

for example, its ironic that you claim "expanding your mind .. by hallucinating is childish, pseudoscientific bullshit" and a lot of other angry swear-filled ravings, and you seem like a mean jerk that just says nasty things, but Jacob who likes hallucinogens and ascribes to them some positive effects seems like an open, interesting, peaceful, nice young man. Who's mind is more expanded there?

word to the wise, never do drugs at parties around self righteous trolls like Sir Kevin Bringdown III here, they will trap you in the kitchen droning on and on uncaring that theyre dragging you into into horrible paranoia and ruining it for you.
Theyre called nut doers, they were sent by Satan to drink too much and harsh your buzz and its not a good look: Avoid at all costs, the funny gay people are probably sitting in the bath with the hot girls making them laugh right now, literally grab whoever youre with and bail at maximum velocity! theres fun and possibly boobs/willies in the other rooms, so GO GO GO!

Shahan i heart cyriak. ill write to him see if he wants to come to the London workshop and lets meet him! Hes from Brighton isnt he?

[Dusty]

Why would anybody listen to Timothy Leary or Terrence McKenna? They're just a couple of old drug users who died, (probably in part from issues arising from their drug use). They didn't liberate anybody. The idea that you are expanding your mind or getting religion by hallucinating is childish, pseudoscientific bullshit. All Leary and McKenna did was build a cult of personality around themselves, supplemented by some eye-roll worthy stoner philosophy, so they could continue to get fucked up while credulous sheep paid their bills. Oh, those great men who got high! Such a contribution they have made! And what happens to all the sheep who don't get income from other sheep to pay for their addictions? They just add drug addiction to their list of problems. What a joke.

Velocity, do not PM me anymore. Your taunts don't work. They're childish. I think you are a completely negative presence on these boards.

I think you are normally a very POSITIVE presence on this board and I always enjoy your posts.
That said, you seem to be the only one in this thread that is adding a negative tone.

It's not like anyone is saying "GO DO HEROIN! NOTHING BAD WILL HAPPEN TO YOU! YAAAAAAAY, KING HEROIN 4 LYFE!"

You know?

[Shahan]

people like Sir Kevin Bringdown III, they will drag you into horrible paranoia and ruin it for you while going on and on about how enlightened and clever they are. theyre called party ruiners, and its not a good look.

i heart cyriak. ill write to him see if he wants to come to the London workshop and lets meet him! Hes from Brighton isnt he?

LOL Sir Kevin Bringdown III reminds me of buzz killington....



and aaggggh i wish i could goto the workshop. never been to anything like that... except.. nycomicon? been there once.. was awesome.. wanted to see Amano.. didn't get to... cyriak's stuff looks like he puts SO much work and time into it... crazy... would love to see a 'how to' by him... bet that'd also be all trippy haha.

oh and this may belong here... really belongs in any heated internet discussion:

[Anthonycarey]

huh why?

I don't think that guy likes you very much..

[Anthonycarey]

I think you are normally a very POSITIVE presence on this board and I always enjoy your posts.
That said, you seem to be the only one in this thread that is adding a negative tone.

It's not like anyone is saying "GO DO HEROIN! NOTHING BAD WILL HAPPEN TO YOU! YAAAAAAAY, KING HEROIN 4 LYFE!"

You know?

Actually I think I said those exact words like 3 times.. I actually knew a guy that died because of heroin, he didn't overdose though.. He was hit by a car on his way to his dealers house on his bicycle..

[OldJake666]

Depressive and cynical art-geek that lurks on Internet forums and has extensive trivial debates about production art for video games, or optimistic drug-user that is open to new experiences and finds great joy in exploring visual creation in new and experimental ways that translates to the viewer transpersonal states of conciousness so that the viewer may themselves access those trancendental states? I don't know about you guys, but I'll take the latter... (And I've been on both teams. )

Don't forget about kindness, though. Whether or not you use drugs, love, kindness, and interconnectedness is the most important thing in life. Everything else is grist for the mill...

I hope everyone enjoys this beautiful winters day and doesn't let their opinions get in the way of connecting with this wonderful community.

Jake

[Velocity Kendall]

Whether or not you use drugs, love, kindness, and interconnectedness is the most important thing in life.

Jake, you say it far better than i ever could homes.
i do love a trivial debate tho, and im not crazy about rainbow coloured fractals... can I pick and choose? ;P

"and aaggggh i wish i could goto the workshop. never been to anything like that... except.. nycomicon? been there once.. was awesome.. wanted to see Amano.. didn't get to... cyriak's stuff looks like he puts SO much work and time into it... crazy... would love to see a 'how to' by him... bet that'd also be all trippy haha."
-shahan

Dude i know. Im a noob too, thisll be my cherry popping con, im super excited and its months away. 4 days of lectures, finally meeting people, partying, and drawing. slightly nervous if im honest, but im sure itll be dope! if anyone has any specific questions for the folks on the instructor list ill do my best to seek them out!
is amano the vampire hunter D guy? works looks a bit like klimt? if so he is one sick puppy.

http://conceptart.org/forums/showthr...nstructor-List

Anthony, Im starting to think maybe youre right about that bud!!

[Anthonycarey]

Jake, you say it far better than i ever could homes.
i do love a trivial debate tho, and im not crazy about rainbow coloured fractals... can I pick and choose? ;P

"and aaggggh i wish i could goto the workshop. never been to anything like that... except.. nycomicon? been there once.. was awesome.. wanted to see Amano.. didn't get to... cyriak's stuff looks like he puts SO much work and time into it... crazy... would love to see a 'how to' by him... bet that'd also be all trippy haha."
-shahan

Dude i know. Im a noob too, thisll be my cherry popping con, im super excited and its months away. 4 days of lectures, finally meeting people, partying, and drawing. slightly nervous if im honest, but im sure itll be dope! if anyone has any specific questions for the folks on the instructor list ill do my best to seek them out!
is amano the vampire hunter D guy? works looks a bit like klimt? if so he is one sick puppy.

http://conceptart.org/forums/showthr...nstructor-List

Anthony, Im starting to think maybe youre right about that bud!!

Oh goodness look at you being all fancy. I didn't know you were famous and stuff.. Kudos on the teaching spot, hope it goes well.

[Velocity Kendall]

oh you! blind leading the sighted! but thanks! im super buzzed to meet all the folks I only know through CAO tho, and maybe some of my TAD crew if they can make it. theyve been good to me and itll be fun to give back a bit. im not 100% certain how its all set up, but if its possible ill get a camcorder and Ill try and bug as many of the big names as I can. like i say if you cant make it but have questions ill do my best.
that might not be doable but in any case its gonna be fun on the bun!

if i was famous youd know tho. by definition. for one thing id be trying to sell you (buy my sports drink) something right now.

one thing I do have to blame dorgs for; before hearing Skyscraper at a party I was absolutely certain it was stupid crap. Now i think its a work of towering good natured hair metal genius and theres nothing I can do about it. Im not getting those years back.

[bill618]

One of the most dramatic have been creative and artistic shifts, and this is a place that I don't even understand the debate about on an art forum. Psychedelics DRAMATICALLY enhance creativity. Of course this could be to some extent dependent on the individual but for the most part is very blatant and apparent.

Again, a lot of people confuse creativity with distorted nonsense.
Many people also confuse imaginativeness with creativity. The former is an essential part of the latter but it is not the latter.
You might find this interesting:
http://www.apa.org/monitor/nov03/creativity.aspx

I don’t do drugs, I am drugs. – Salvador Dali

Snippet of an interview with ‘psychedelic’ artist Mati Klarwein:

David[interviewer]: How have psychedelics influenced your work?
Mati: They haven't. It was more the spirit of the times. I think it all goes together. I painted psychedelically before I took psychedelics. When Tim Leary first saw my work he said, "You don't need psychedelics." And that was before I took them.
David: How do you account for the fact that people who do psychedelics are so attracted to your work?
Mati: Because it's like what Dali says, "I don't take drugs. I am drugs."
David: How do you feel about being classified as a psychedelic painter?
Mati: I think it's subjective. Anybody can classify me as they wish. In the fifties I was classified as an illustrator, even though my work consisted of paintings. And in the sixties my work was classified as psychedelic. So I took psychedelics to find out what it was all about. I found out I couldn't paint on them. …When I take psychedelics I get very horny, and I start going out to nightclubs and cruising."
http://www.mavericksofthemind.com/mati.htm

[s.ketch]

I tried shooting someone with psylocibin once, nothing happened. Did you look at the chart posted where the pale blue line is the harm done to others? Yeah alcohol was very bad and other substances like heroin. But say, mushroom and mdma, lsd? not really any harm to others, why is that? Maybe because the most harmful thing someone on mdma is liable to do is hug you and pet your hair. I have been at several raves over the years, around thousands of people on mdma or mushrooms or other recreational drugs and I have never seen a single fight, a single act of violence.

Did you notice the part where Cannibis is more harmful to others than Cocaine and Meth? When's the last time you saw someone on pot kill someone or steal from their mothers to keep the habit? What's that? Did you just get me? Did you just catch me admitting that pot isn't harmful? Ha! You win.

Poorly thought-out sarcasm supported by anecdotes aside, maybe there is more than what meets the eye here. Maybe our preconceptions and stories of LSD-fueled transcendental enlightenment aren't enough. Maybe the chart isn't all that accurate despite how much it confirms that our love for niche drugs aren't as harmful as the widely accessible evil that is alcohol. Maybe if most of the population did mushrooms just as they drink, there would be more data on how harmful it actually is. Maybe the guy who made that chart got fired from the drug-hating/anti-science/prude government because he's actually pretty bad at statistical analysis. Of course I'm sure you're just going to snark and turn this around on me because anti-drug people are the only ones with any bias or preconceptions in this situation. As it's been proven in the latest post, if you throw in enough feel-good, lets-hold-handsism, people will like what you have to say and consider you truly open minded.

So I hope we can all just get along and come together as a community and appreciate the true beauty of the world through fellowship and mutual understanding.

I can't speak for myself, but if it's really true that 'drug activists' constantly say 'look at the individual, not the big picture', perhaps it's because the 'big picture' with regards to drugs represents not so much a lucid, rational, and/or scientific view of the potential harm and benefits associated with specific drugs, as a big fucking gong-show of cultural values and biases, paranoia, propaganda, emotional decision-making, cherry-picking of data, and ignorance. And I admit that goes both ways.

I'm glad you admit it goes both ways. Values inform policy. Drug legalization, as policy, is also informed by values of the people pushing it. Biases: Just look at this thread. Preconceptions about people who are anti-drug abound. All supported by personal stories and feelings. Paranoia: The government is purposefully ignoring good science in favor of enacting archaic drug legislation to unjustly imprison me and people like me. The oppressive majority is against me which is why my views aren't widely accepted or enacted into policy, it can't be that my views are wrong.

Lucid, rational science? It certainly can't be found in pro-drug literature. Inducing delusions is good science? Fighting the man is good science? Putting things in our bodies to change the way we think so that we reach a higher level of understanding? Who's scientific method is that? This isn't about good science, or science at all. It's a political battle. It's a battle of values. Just like in any political debate, science is used and abused. Statistics too. I didn't realize a concise scientific argument consisted of who can find the most poorly constructed charts.

(Velocity, you won't get this post either, so just don't read it)

[Velocity Kendall]

You were right, i didnt get it. I wish youd put your notes to me at the start of your word mulches, not the end.

Seriously though, I really dont get it. Theres so much anger in what you and Kev write. Why is that?
You spit your words out, you posts are full of viciousness, rhetorical questions, it always sounds so shrill. Far too many explamation points, and instances of the exact misfiring sarcasm you say you dislike (for example Sketch yor bitter jab at mutual understanding)

OK, you dont like heroin and methamphetamine. Neither do I. Their propensity harm is self evident. Im not advocating their use in any circumstances. Grouping those chemicals with things like mushrooms and caffiene under the umbrella of DRUGS is absurd, something we've already looked at in some depth.

You dont like hallucinogens. Again, OK, dont take em. End of story. Personally I think youre missing out, but its your choice. On the other hand, maybe your preconceptions and stories are'nt enough. in which case, why not try some and find out? You never know you might like it. Saying someone has or hasnt found an experience enlightening when you yourself have never properly tried is misguided at best, and not convincing.

Thats pretty much the end of my interest in this discussion. Much as I love verbal sparring being trailed around by Kev is somewhat trying.

Im am tho fascinated why in a subset of people, things like LSD cause them to flip out so fervently. As the guy Ferrera hates so much, Terrence McKenna once said

"LSD is a psychedelic drug which occasionally causes psychotic behavior in people who have not taken it."


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As for that graph, there are plenty of reasons to be skeptical of specific details on it. I suppose the harm to others thing might be due to second hand smoke, but who knows.
Here is a much more sophisticated critique of some of its shortcomings: http://transform-drugs.blogspot.co.u...ng-bigger.html

on the other hand, it was compiled by people far more expert than I, or you, or even the all knowing Kev Ferrera, who have devoted, and recently in the case of Dr Nutt, derailed their careers in the persuit of fair and real drug information. and therefore Im willing to at least look at it.
You claim the charts is poorly constructed, but you havent offered any kind of counter example.. I think you sided with Kev by default because hes smarter than you, and didnt give it any further thought.

"Putting things in our bodies to change the way we think so that we reach a higher level of understanding? Who's scientific method is that? "

i suggest you read up on the effect the opening of the coffee houses had on european thought. (hint, it was the industrial revolution and the invention of the scientific method)

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Drug legalisation is a hugely politicised field which Im not that interested in. I can get any drug I want right now. I will say I support decriminalisation of LSD and Ecstacy simply based on the fact the prohibition hasnt worked. use is up, demand is up, prices are down. So I think its time for a rethink. Criminalising young people for possession is clearly a mistake. however, as I say im not that bothered one way or the other.

The fact is drugs are here, and whether you like them or not, kids do. Personally, I think explaining that the drugs on the lower portion of the graph probably wont lead to your life being ruined or curtailed, but the ones on the upper portion could very well do so (which is an undeniable fact), is a useful thing to do. Do you disagree? if so why?