Andrew Loomis Technique? WTF? (moved from Fine Art)

[Rischmidt]

(This isn't quite Fine art, but it is about the basics, so I'll use this board).

So recently I've been trying to imitate Andrew Loomis' way of constructing the face, because it's a proper formula. I'm stuck.
Usually what I do, is I free-hand draw the face and fix mistakes accordingly. This isn't productive. I've read a bit about Loomis' technique and tried to apply it by using a 3D rendered sphere with the cranium cut off, as an under laid base to draw from.



This is the result. The face is waay too narrow or elongated, but following the proportions and curves of the sphere, technically, it's supposed to be correct, isn't it? What am I doing wrong?

I might not be seeing the obvious, but I'm just confused right now. Any tips?

[Elwell]

What am I doing wrong?

The top third starts at the the hairline, which is on the same level as the top of the side plane, not at the top of the sphere.

[NoSeRider]

It's not only technique but you do have to draw what you see. The ear lobe should not be as high as the eyes. The hairline is closer to the eyebrow/temple. Basically, your jawline is messed up. Formula probably would work if you fix jawline/ear.

[Rischmidt]

@Elwell: Right, that's what my initial thought was. But following the sphere's curved lines, that (my drawing) is technically supposed to be the top third. Should I just ignore the curves and draw it above the side-plane? See, the sphere's curves make sense to me, because it's a round object. A face isn't flat. That's why I'm wondering. (Thanks for the video, I've looked at it previously as well)

@NoSeRider: According to the video Elwell posted, the ear is supposed to be located just above the X of the cranium of the sphere. That's why I've placed it there. Now, following thirds, according to the SPHERE, the jaw curves from the ear to the bottom red-line.. resulting in an elongated face.
I realise there's no rules for drawing a face exactly identical, seeing as we all have different faces, BUT essentially I should at least get the basic proportions of the face right with Loomis' technique. Which I am not.

[NoSeRider]

Unless you're trying to imitate Scott Campbell, realistic features suggest the earlobe should be aligned with the bottom of the nose, and the top of the ear around pupils of the eyes. Your initial drawing would suggest she's looking down instead of level with the viewer.

[Rischmidt]

I agree. But I don't think the placement of the ear is the problem. I think the rest of the proportions is the problem. As in the video, the ear is placed on the cranium X and it's perfectly proportionate to the rest of the face. There's something else going on. I think Elwell's got the answer. But the question is rather WHY. Why would those perfect curves from my 3D sphere not result in an proportionate face.

[JFierce]

People aren't identical cast molds of each other. Things can change, shift around. Shit doesn't have to be exact as long as it's in the general realm of believability.

http://blog.bowers-wilkins.com/wp-co...l3-298x300.jpg

http://prettyandfabulous.com/wp-cont...hair-style.jpg

http://0.tqn.com/d/menshair/1/0/y/E/...-top-front.jpg

Could probably find better examples but I'd rather not search google images for a long time looking at ears.

[Januz]

The nose line is for where the nostrils attach to the face, so the tip should go a little further down. Remember to draw curved lines, the earlobe should be a bit higher than the nostrils. The jaw looks a bit too pointy and the mouth is a bit too wide (use the center of the eyes to align it).

[Rischmidt]

@JFierce: "I realise there's no rules for drawing a face exactly identical, seeing as we all have different faces, BUT essentially I should at least get the basic proportions of the face right with Loomis' technique. Which I am not."

I get that proportions change depending on the person. But damn son, my narrow drawing-face don't make no sense.

@Januz: Lol. Sorry Januz, I think my problem was a bit unclear, 'cause hell, I'm confused. But, the issue is not about the general placement of features on the face, instead, how do I apply those features using Loomis' technique. Using thirds, using a sphere with curved lines.
(I appreciate the pointers immensely though. Thanks man ).

The sphere is too narrow for the size of the thirds. BUT! The sphere is a perfect circle (ignoring the cranium). If I increased the width of the circle to make up for this, it would defeat the point of using a formula. Again, I realise everyone's faces aren't a perfect circle, but even if it doesn't end up looking like this chick, it should at least be proportionate.

[Januz]

I've painted over your example where I think the lines should go in blue.
(btw I'm not a head expert, take it with a grain of salt )

[vineris]

Why are you following the sphere's curved lines UP in order to get your unit of measure rather than AROUND? Your result is that your entire sphere is two units high, but it's really obvious from the other pictures that it has to be more than two units high. If you divide it in two and it's supposed to be more like two and two thirds then yeah, your proportions won't be right.

[Rischmidt]

@Januz: BOOM! Now were getting somewhere! PROGRESS. Okay. So you've nailed it according to the vid about Andrew Loomis' method. But, that's a rough guess as to how the face curves. By using the curves generated from the 3D sphere, the curves are accurate. So in other words, your paint-over lines aren't matching up with the natural curves of the model.

So the question is. WHY. Why wouldn't I follow the 3D curves? Why doesn't it work if I do it that way?

@Vineris: With each row of curves, it goes around the sphere. So wouldn't it make sense to put the hairline way up top? Technically?


EDIT: Vineris, I get what you're saying. I think these sphere grids are just messing me around. I'll turn them off instead and draw the lines AROUND, instead of curving upwards.

Thanks for the help broskis. I appreciate it.

[Xopher]

Funnily enough A LOT of the FORMULAS for the Head actually result in a elongated head, and you can actually tell who has used a formula and who has taken the time to either measure visually or fix it themselves. You can find face beauty maps online and so forth that kinda make chars look more attractive. As for copying model I guess its finger on pencil at arms length kinda stuff.

Moatd has a great tut on this guideline vs what looks right, I didnt check but think this is the one: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mk84EpHmZKQ&feature=plcp .
Basically you can follow guidelines and formulas up to a certain point for your construction and even measure for accuracy but in the end you gut instinct will tell you what looks right. And I guess you already can as you have pointed this out in your 3d model.

Im finding this problem myself with learning perspective at the moment, at a certain point their is distortion outside of the cone of vision, especially with ellipses as wheels, and to most of us its fine, because in the film industry wide angle lenses and camera techniques take advantage of the distortion. But its still distortion.

Not relevant but I found it interesting lol...and Im bored and wanted to sound like I know what Im talking about a little .

[vineris]

@Vineris: With each row of curves, it goes around the sphere. So wouldn't it make sense to put the hairline way up top? Technically?

Not really. The cranium sphere represents your skull. Put your hand on your hairline (if you are bald borrow someone else's head ) and your other hand on top of your skull. If you move both your hands forward, keeping them level, you'll see that there's an inch or so of difference. You are not accounting for that inch.

I agree, turn the grid off for now and see if it helps.

[Johnscj]

I'll give my opinion, but i might be wrong or you already know this and it's useless..
So, the head is flat on the sides and the circle is just there to help on the construction. I remeber reading the loomis book about the heads and he said there are various ways of constructing the head with like the square.
And if you look at the cranium, on the front it doesnt really follow the roundness of the circle.

[sone_one]

hrm i confess i didnt read all of the argument, but the measuring is off.

you get the point between the brows by the deviding the sphere vertically. for the hairline you cut off quite a bit of the top (im sure loomis has numbers there) to get the hairline. use this measurement for getting the nose and chin mark...



if you look at loomis the sphere ends at the mouth line more or less... not the nose

[Januz]

@Januz: BOOM! Now were getting somewhere! PROGRESS. Okay. So you've nailed it according to the vid about Andrew Loomis' method. But, that's a rough guess as to how the face curves. By using the curves generated from the 3D sphere, the curves are accurate. So in other words, your paint-over lines aren't matching up with the natural curves of the model.

So the question is. WHY. Why wouldn't I follow the 3D curves? Why doesn't it work if I do it that way?

BAM! Because the head isn't a perfect sphere. The face is more like a curved plane mounted on the sphere (AKA skull). Also, everyone's head is different and you have to keep foreshortening in mind. Don't get trapped in the formula, follow your eyes more.
The lines are useful to figure out perspective, direction and get an idea of where things go. Then you throw some carefully measured primitives, and it's all observation from then on.

[Rischmidt]

FFFFFF, you guys are cool. Thank you!

[Elwell]

The downside of the Loomis method is that if you don't understand the basics of how to divide a sphere in perspective (properly eyeballing the centers and ellipses, etc), it becomes confusing. This thread is a perfect example of that. Go back and watch Stan's video again, and his others on constructing the head as well. Your use of that 3D model threw you off by giving you a misguided sense of accuracy.

[Medelo]

I really would recommend taking a look at other methods of head construction as well, for example Reilly, and the Michael Hampton book, and others (Ron Lemen has some stuff too in that Anatomy booklet published by IFX). That way you can cross-reference the similarities and differences in construction technique. Also, do get a skull copy somewhere, if you are serious about learning how to draw heads and faces that is very helpful if only for reminding yourself that we do not really have perfect tennis balls inside our heads.

[Elwell]

But following the sphere's curved lines, that (my drawing) is technically supposed to be the top third.
(snip)
Now, following thirds, according to the SPHERE, the jaw curves from the ear to the bottom red-line..

Here's your problem. It has to do with the polygonal modeling of that sphere. The horizontal center of the sphere is like the equator on a globe. The lines (ellipses) that define the hairline and nose line will run parallel to the equator, like lines of latitude. But, because you have your sphere on its side (to facilitate cutting off the side planes, no doubt), you're following lines of longitude, which radiate out from the poles. A ping pong ball and a black marker will probably teach you more than all the 3d models in the world.

[Alice Herring]

A ping pong ball and a black marker will probably teach you more than all the 3d models in the world.

.....oh for the love of...why didn't I think of this idea!? Would have helped me solve a lot of problems. So. freaking. simple. Argh! Thanks Elwell

[Xeon_OND]

The Loomis and all construction methods are only guidelines, not perfect formulas.
That's what I found out some time ago when I tried to apply the Loomis head method in a life drawing class on a real model. The differences were starking!

[sone_one]

The Loomis and all construction methods are only guidelines, not perfect formulas.
That's what I found out some time ago when I tried to apply the Loomis head method in a life drawing class on a real model. The differences were starking!

not if applied correctly >.< and they cant be 100% fitting the subject. its just a way to design and break up into digestible parts whats infront of you.

[JFierce]

If you know Loomis well you can probably construct faces well. But you still need to look around because peoples features and proportions fluctuate, some quite a lot. Don't want to be stuck in the 'all my faces look the same' mode. I was watching some asian horror movie from 2005 with a friend. This one character..... his face.... .. it was just really ..... long. The space between his nose and eyes felt like they had a bigger gap.

But blah blah blah. Personally I like seeing random google images of a bunch of peoples faces and seeing the drastic differences in some.

All Asian but still interesting.
http://img188.imageshack.us/img188/4043/71199293.jpg

[dpaint]

You didn't use the sphere correctly here is the Loomis Ball from Fun With a Pencil. The bottom edge of the ball passes through the mouth not the nose. The hairline is below the top edge of the ball. The larger ball makes the head wider.

[MastaFran42]

Aren't the eyes usually on the line of the sphere?

[Arshes Nei]

I went back to Proko's blog and something very funny popped up during my reading of it...which pertains to this thread.

Step 3 – Add the jaw

A common mistake at this point is to make the jaw too long in comparison to the ball. Make sure to measure your thirds correctly and that they relate correctly to the ball. Notice how the shape of the jaw changes from various angles.

http://www.stanprokopenko.com/blog/2...ead-any-angle/

[Elwell]

http://www.stanprokopenko.com/blog/2...ead-any-angle/

The two comments from December 4, 2011 are awesome!

[Kolbenito]

Measure with your thumb and index finger the distance from under your nose to the bridge of your brow between your eyes (glabella). If you move it up to your brow you should be touching your hairline. If you move it down under your nose you should be touching the bottom of your chin. Move that measurement over to your ear and see that it is approximately the same. Not everyone is going to match this exactly but most people are close. That is all Loomis is showing you.