Stop apologizing already!

[Kashmir]

No, they would rather act like blood thirsty wolves and complain about people being polite. Maybe people wouldn't feel the need to be sorry if you guys didnt act like beasts. I always see complaints about X questions that people have, and how its such a bother to answer. Of course it causes some people to apologize for asking something! Hell, I feel sorry everytime i visit this subsection of the forums. In some places being sorry for taking someones time is polite. I dont believe someone trying to be polite is cowardly, If anything, trying to talk to some of you people is a feat of bravery!

Actually, I believe they are right. When they act like that, force people to think two times before creating a topic and go search for, instead of coming here and create a topic with an subject that have been discussed before

[QueenGwenevere]

Depends which culture you're talking about... The kids in my neighborhood think nothing of shouting their unsolicited personal opinions at total strangers. They're about as unapologetic as you can get.

Actually, the adults are just as bad.

Then again, this is Brooklyn.

[Black Spot]

Actually, I believe they are right. When they act like that, force people to think two times before creating a topic and go search for, instead of coming here and create a topic with an subject that have been discussed before

I try to be even handed, but sometimes you just have to bang your head on your desk. You'd think with a generation growing up on the internet they'd know how to use it. We need a 'Top Art Questions Asked' section.

[Star Eater]

We need a 'Top Art Questions Asked' section.

I like that idea...

[JeffX99]

I try to be even handed, but sometimes you just have to bang your head on your desk. You'd think with a generation growing up on the internet they'd know how to use it. We need a 'Top Art Questions Asked' section.

I totally third that Black Spot! But then we get into the "fractured forum" conundrum...and stickies, well, we know how well they work.

[Kashmir]

I try to be even handed, but sometimes you just have to bang your head on your desk. You'd think with a generation growing up on the internet they'd know how to use it. We need a 'Top Art Questions Asked' section.

But we know how to use it: Keep your ass on the chair and ask to others do your job for you. This works on other foruns, but for some reason this doesn't work on CA

[Dusty]

"Beasts"?

I recall feeling that teachers or people I looked up to back in the day responding to me with a matter-of-fact tone coming off as "mean" when I was 14.
But then you get to, you know, 16 and you start to see that it's part of the learning process.
I really REALLY hope that people understand that around this place.

I don't see anyone being a dick around here. If you want that, go back in time and visit Eatpoo.com circa 2001 or so. They were dicks.
The people here are just straight forward. Some are more curt than others, but that's a good thing.

Young artists need to know that the professionals have been where they are, but they also need to know that shit is hard! No one said any of this was easy.
Well, making art is easy. If you enjoy something, it will BE easy. But all of the other stuff that comes with it (getting better, getting a job, etc) - yeah, that shit is fuckin' hard. School sucks at telling young artists that.

[Star Eater]

I'm a sexy beast.

[JFierce]

I've seen so many threads about perspective recently I'm losing count.

Lets see the top threads:

-Anatomy: How do I doo dis?!
-Life Drawing: Why it so hard?!
-Perspective: How this shit work?!
-What is Art: Lets make a set definition
-Traditional Vs Digital: Readdddyyyyy Fight!
-Give me resources on everything: While I ignore the resources sticky and artist reading list.
-I'm a beginner where do I start: Oh? ..... By... drawing you say?


I know I'm missing some obvious triennial stuff that that happens every year.

[Shorinji_Knight]

Newbies will always ask the same questions, the wrong questions, the stupid questions, and so forth. If it really bothered people they would just ignore the threads that don't appeal to them. Instead everyone jumps in like they can't wait to weigh-in on whatever the new annoying thing is.

Someone who joins here can't be expected to actually read all of the stickys before they can participate. I've hung out around here for years before participating (so long in fact that I couldn't remember how to get into my old account so had to just make a new one) and I still haven't read all of the stickys.

I don't think that very many people here set out to be rude. And... it is very easy to mistake the tone that a post is written in. Sometimes the truth is hard to hear regardless. That said, let's not glorify in earn your place in the pack type of wolfish behavior.

[Arshes Nei]

I've seen so many threads about perspective recently I'm losing count.
I know I'm missing some obvious triennial stuff that that happens every year.

"I came to Concept Art to learn about how to draw concept art"

[OmenSpirits]

Newbies will always ask the same questions, the wrong questions, the stupid questions, and so forth. If it really bothered people they would just ignore the threads that don't appeal to them. Instead everyone jumps in like they can't wait to weigh-in on whatever the new annoying thing is.

Someone who joins here can't be expected to actually read all of the stickys before they can participate. I've hung out around here for years before participating (so long in fact that I couldn't remember how to get into my old account so had to just make a new one) and I still haven't read all of the stickys.

I don't think that very many people here set out to be rude. And... it is very easy to mistake the tone that a post is written in. Sometimes the truth is hard to hear regardless. That said, let's not glorify in earn your place in the pack type of wolfish behavior.

Here's the thing. All of us have come from different learning backgrounds, a great many have come up learning either through education or self-education, and the fact is, even if people come here to learn, there has got to have been some kind of prior form of education to have given the newer members ( I hate newb and all its variations) some basic understanding or knowledge to intelligently address the forum when making a topic.

CA should be the last place to ask such basic questions that should have been found out in the foundations of one's learning.

Pointing new members to stickies and expecting them to read is more polite then telling them flat out to go read a f$&king book and develop a basic understanding of picture making before you come here and make a fool of yourself before asking things like, "What line does it take to make a perfect circle without using a template?"

This is a simple matter of gaining a simple level of experience, which mostly comes from one's own learnings. Siting down and drawing & reading. Things we've all done and still do without running to a forum to get the answer.

Books have these answers.

[Leonor]

What level should people be before they join conceptart.org? Or is the problem less about level and more about asking questions instead of opening a sketchbook, picking the books and doing the work?

What topic would suit the purpose of this subforum?

[creeptool]

if any one ever posted for help are tips or anything like that and they engages in the same behaviors he or she condemned your basically being a hypocrite.

[JFierce]

Personally to me it's not about level. What bugs me a bit is if A) they don't have a clear question or something they want answered. Vague questions get vague answers. B) if they don't even attempt what they're asking beforehand. C) If they're asking specifics about their own drawings but never give an actual example of their drawings. Oh yeah and C) if they don't do any prior research beforehand.


No one minds someone who makes a question and it's along the lines of

"Hi guys, I've been trying this on my own for awhile but I can't quite understand it, I looked up some thing about it but still can't quite get it. Here's some examples of what I'm doing. Can you help me with this this and this?"

[Kolbenito]

Simple questions simple answers thread. Problem solved. FAQ for the top 20 questions asked on CA by new people. Problem solved.

Believe it or not CA is not the only forum on the internet that has new people asking questions the die hards have answered 45thousand million times.

[Candra H]

I have mixed feelings about all this.

I don't mind people being humble and respectful in their questioning - I'd rather they were than arrogant because I hate arrogant people, and know-it-alls, and pompous pseudo-experts and all those other types the internet is rife with. But obsequiousness and constant apologising makes me cringe. If you ask a stupid question without checking for answers before asking it, then just own your fuck up and get on with learning. There's nothing worse than someone saying endless sorry's for asking something stupid or on the opposite side, someone getting bitchy and defensive for being told they've just asked something stupid.

But yeah, I also admit to not having read all the stickes here. There are a lot of them after all. Oops.

P.S. A frequently asked section would definitely be a good idea.

[vineris]

Simple questions simple answers thread. Problem solved. FAQ for the top 20 questions asked on CA by new people. Problem solved.

This is not a solution because the sort of people who ask easily-Googled questions do not read FAQs. If they did they would not ask those questions.

[Kolbenito]

This is not a solution because the sort of people who ask easily-Googled questions do not read FAQs. If they did they would not ask those questions.

Will these same people read this thread before posting? Unlikely. So instead of making threads the offenders won't read, why not put a SQSA and FAQ thread in the more general forums where these questions get asked and make it required reading. One of those READ BEFORE POSTING OR ELSE!!!!1 type things. Heck why not make FAQ bullet #1 an example of how to use google to find your question on CA - there is a HUGE amount of information here but you aren't going to find it with the Vbulletin search.

Just a suggestion. Several forums do this and it does seem to help.

[Arshes Nei]

I'd put it in the signup - but that can get too long too.

[Dusty]

Personally to me it's not about level. What bugs me a bit is if A) they don't have a clear question or something they want answered. Vague questions get vague answers. B) if they don't even attempt what they're asking beforehand. C) If they're asking specifics about their own drawings but never give an actual example of their drawings. Oh yeah and C) if they don't do any prior research beforehand.


No one minds someone who makes a question and it's along the lines of

"Hi guys, I've been trying this on my own for awhile but I can't quite understand it, I looked up some thing about it but still can't quite get it. Here's some examples of what I'm doing. Can you help me with this this and this?"

Agreed,

The thing that I think bothers me the most is the same vague questions that you mention, but then no link to their DA account, Sketchbook, or even a single scanned image.
It's pretty much impossible to help anyone other than "Draw more!" unless they show where they are at in their learning.

At that point, all I can really give is personal anecdotes of how *I* overcame obstacles...which may not even help the person at hand.

[Crane]

There should be a thing that makes new comers actually go through the FAQ before they can post or something to that effect. The thing that annoys me isn't the saying sorry, although I can understand where Jeff is coming from, its, as others pointed out, the threads popping up asking already answered questions that are an inch under the 'Create new thread' button.

[JeffX99]

Just want to say I appreciate the actually well considered discussion to my cranky old man rant. It was mostly tongue in cheek and figured it wouldn't even evolve (I just hope I posted it in the right place Many of you (Dusty, Candra, Omen in particular) have touched on some really important points related to the topic. Clearly it touched on some things...and I'd like to clarify a few points:

On the "bloodthirsty wolf" thing...nature is that way. Maybe I come off that way occasionally but I always try to be realistic and offer help or advice I think the OP needs to hear...sometimes it stings. IMHO it needs to if that is the case. If you can't handle getting some sense slapped into you then you're probably not cut out to be an artist.

As I mentioned...it isn't even about questions so much, but unnecessary "pdfmita" groveling as an opening line (I'll leave the acronym up to the individual). Sure I'm capable of ignoring questions...but as often as not I feel it is important to respond with a wake-up call...and usually not for the OP directly but for the hundreds of anonymous readers of the thread.

Basically I always try to help around here...as best as my limitations allow. I am passionate about many types of art and design and have been very fortunate in my career so that I may offer some experience and perspective. I get a bit worked up because I feel CA could be so much more...and what it is is pretty good...I would just like to see it be an even stronger resource...which is hard to do when people don't have much initiative.

Anyway, thanks again for the open and respectful dialog.

[Black Spot]

Maybe we could have some special awards for people, like spescul snowflakes, ostrich hiding head in sand, bum shiner etc. Collect three and be banned for a month.

[Shorinji_Knight]

The problem with not knowing enough about art is, that you don't know how much you don't know... that is why people ask the questions they do. They take the old saying "The only stupid question is the one you don't ask" to heart, so they ask. I know that it is hard to comprehend the idea of asking other people to solve simple problems for you. I personally would rather look everything up myself rather than trust someone else's word for it. However, a lot of people come here and they want to feel like they are part of the community so they strike up what feels like a relevant question from the perspective of their relative skill levels. A FAQ section may help, but I doubt it. The best recourse would be to make a FAQs and moderate thread creation by new members. If they try to make a thread that has been done before, then refer them to the FAQ.

Jeffx99: I've read a lot of your posts over the years and I'd say that you're usually one of the more even keeled voices in the general forums.

My comment about the wolfish behavior was not directed at anyone in particular, rather it was meant to encourage general civility. I don't like the sentiments that are frequently expressed here along the lines that harshness is a form of tough love... sometimes it is, but most of the time it's just means to justify rudeness.

I find it amazing that people can read a single post and totally judge how they want the course of their relationship with another individual to go. I'd prefer to err on the side of caution when dealing with other people. By assuming that everyone is worthy of respect until they prove otherwise. Why would anyone force people to earn their respect? If someone is worthy of respect you might not ever know it, because they may never bother trying to prove their worthiness to you. I mean you can always decide later that you don't respect them. It's a lot harder to un-alienate than it is to alienate.

[sone_one]

There should be a thing that makes new comers actually go through the FAQ before they can post or something to that effect.

lol no. it would have the same effect of license agreements... noone reads them anyway... skipping to the end and hitting f8 or whatever... cmon.

jeff just vented... thats ok. dont make a drama out of it. is it that hard to digest to justify barriers for posting here?

no its not. due to its denizens and history ca became a place where people state what they think with a strong bias to professional picture making, and a lesser bias to beeing polite. you dont get the crit? read up on it, theres more potential resources than thereve ever been. you feel treated unneccessarily harsh? im sorry... grow a thicker skin, you gonna need it if you want to do anything creative for a living.
would you really rather have no reply, than having a harsh one?

ca has a certain reputation especially for people that get serious about art, for a reason. no asspats, no spoon-feeding, no oh someone takes up drawing, lets pet him, because thats so special. even typing thats leaves a sour taste in my mouth.

picture making is about the effort YOU invest... not certain answers/shortcuts, materials, tools, rules, mediums, colors.

[keeptime]

There should be a thing that makes new comers actually go through the FAQ before they can post or something to that effect.

I signed up for a forum once that made you post something in a specific FAQ/beginner's thread before any other threads would even be visible to you. Of course that doesn't guarantee that people will actually read it, but it is nice to be immediately directed towards the "Read this before posting" thread. It would be especially useful on CA where the stickies can sort of blend in with the rest of the forum.

[sone_one]

I find it amazing that people can read a single post and totally judge how they want the course of their relationship with another individual to go. I'd prefer to err on the side of caution when dealing with other people. By assuming that everyone is worthy of respect until they prove otherwise. Why would anyone force people to earn their respect? If someone is worthy of respect you might not ever know it, because they may never bother trying to prove their worthiness to you. I mean you can always decide later that you don't respect them. It's a lot harder to un-alienate than it is to alienate.

i dont think telling someone to go back studying the basics, objects to having mutual respect for him/her. exposing yourself through your art is tough... noone forced you to. do you want to grow as an artist? youre welcome here. are some replies hurting your feelings? pretty likely. are they therefore invalid? youd better reconsider that, if getting better is your goal.

theres the saying of... if you want to go for it, leave your ego at the door... and i strongly believe in that, and think it goes for every profession that goes beyond the ordinary.

[vineris]

Will these same people read this thread before posting?

Of course not. This is just venting. Because there is no CA pub.

Personally I kinda like the way SomethingAwful does things -- the rules are arbitrary and possibly different for every thread and if you can't read then you go on forum vacation awfully quickly.

[Arshes Nei]

I dunno the bloodthirsty wolves makes me think the people complaining about the complaining are scavengers, coming only to pick bones. It just gets silly. So,the people complaining about the "wolf pack" not offering to help are the scavengers on the corner only to come to get their little morsels after the fact? Seems like hypocrisy.

There is a difference between oh say, asking about oil paints and what brands than an obsession to see "the best oil paints being used on a picture," than just looking up good techniques or researching artwork used. Asking if it even matters is fine too.

But at the end of this, granted you can come here at any level but well some of the people asking questions want to do this as a career. You'd think they'd put a little more thought into it. Isn't research and learning about careers the reason why kids go from wanting to be a policeman/fireman/astronaut to desk jockey? Maybe shaking some reality and getting the wheat from the chaff is just a reality. If someone's feeling are so hurt from a forum post that they will not do art again well maybe this wasn't the right career.

Ex.
One of us didn't become doctors because of the fear of having a patient die on you, the other continued to study because even though that's part of the risk, it's still worth it.