tablets/pcs for drawing

[Griffonnage]

Ah that's interesting ! I was really wondering if win8 had such an impact on performance or not. The ativ pro on reviews was really terrible with photoshop, I had been very surprised. I know drivers were not updated when the OS got released, but since then there is still no improvment ? It's a little sad to buy a tablet and have to return to win7 to get the propper performances...

I know the asus had the woooorse screen (I'm glad I could try it but I wasn't very convinced) :p that was a matter of night and day with the note 10.1, really ! I take the note 10.1 as my current reference now, I really like the feeling. My question was about : is the surface screen feeling close to the note 10.1

Anyway, with that story of win8 so bad with performance, that is an issue :/

[thegiffman]

PLEASE do a review as soon as you are able. We all know the tech sites aren't going to tell us what we want to know about the Stylus. Engadget will draw their logo on the screen and call it a day.

I've researched as well and agree with your conclusions. Between the screen (quality and size/resolution), build quality, weight, and parallax, this sounds like a real winner. Only thing it's missing is a dedicated GPU, which would have been nice. But I guess Intel 4000 will suffice for the price.

I want to know how the pen performs on a wide variety of software, from Microsofts own Fresh Paint, to Sketchbook, Photoshop, and Painter.

I was able to stop by the Microsoft kiosk at the mall yesterday and play with one a bit. They didn't have Photoshop, Painter, or Sketchbook, and Fresh Paint didn't have ALT mapped to the eyedropper, so that kinda puts a damper on my process for painting.

I did want to comment on one thing that surprised and delighted me as an artist. The kickstand makes a big difference compared to a tablet PC as far as stability, such that you can quite easily draw on the thing when it's standing up. I didn't think to expect this at all. It's particularly helpful when I think about how much I tend to depend on modifier keys. Not actually having to hold the thing frees up my hand for the keyboard - at least if I'm sitting by some sort of table.

The low parallax is nice, but it doesn't totally remove the distance to the screen. The screen is crisp and clear, unlike the graininess of my old Fujitsu tablet. I couldn't hear the fans in the mall, and I'm really curious if my wife will be able to tolerate me drawing in bed with this one.

Anyway, I can hardly wait 'til Saturday.

[NJR]

Reviews are all out now. Anandtech touched on Photoshop a little bit, but from an actual photo editing perspective, so I'm not sure how the brushes work. The reviewer was impressed with Photoshop performance though, even on a 70mb RAW file. I actually don't use Photoshop much so I don't know how that relates to brush performance.

Reviews are mixed, but I think for portable sketchbook/painting purposes it is MORE than adequate. Just with the battery was better and it had a 4G radio. I'm a bit of a gamer myself as well, so I want to see how it performs in these areas before pulling the trigger.

I agree with you too giffman. The Surface in kickstand mode was fun. I was surprised how comfortable touch and pen input was while upright.

[thegiffman]

It seems that, for portable sketchbook/painting purposes, it is the best available. The only new tablet with a high resolution screen and wacom technology is the Samsung Smart PC Pro, and that reportedly has the same graininess that we often see in Tablet PCs due to the digitizer. Surface pro is beautifully clear on the screen.

Edit: Just saw this gem from a Q&A this morning:

"Hi there, Ralf here. The intent to have an amazing sketch pad was absolutely a goal from the beginning. The Surface design team really wanted a digital sketchbook on a professional level. Our pen has over one thousand pressure levels, if you run Sketchbook Pro or even the free version from Autodesk you have the same tool set professional artists use. The sketch quality is really great. If you are not an artist or designer  you should try the pen for handwriting and note taking, it is really cool."

"Yes, it can register 210 (1024) levels of pressure. Apps like Sketchbook Express are super fun with the Surface pen. It has a pen clip so you can attach it to Type or Touch Cover as well as a magnetic connector that attaches to where the power supply attaches when you're not charging it."

"Hey.. This is StevieB, Yes the Pen is both angle and pressure sensitive. 1024 levels of pressure. The Pen is magnetically dockable on the side.. pretty sweet… we wanted to mimick what you would do with a paper notepad. Also the Cleartype Display tech has a very thin optical stack which gets your pen tip closer to your ink. We also do some secret sauce to maximize the accuracy of the pen.. Basically every Surface Pro on the manufacturing line gets its own unique multipoint non-linear pen calibration."

[Eelybot]

It seems that, for portable sketchbook/painting purposes, it is the best available. The only new tablet with a high resolution screen and wacom technology is the Samsung Smart PC Pro, and that reportedly has the same graininess that we often see in Tablet PCs due to the digitizer. Surface pro is beautifully clear on the screen.

"Hey.. This is StevieB, Yes the Pen is both angle and pressure sensitive. 1024 levels of pressure.
[/B][/I]

Did I read that right? It has tilt sensitivity, too? Do other tablets have this too? I thought that feature was reserved for Intuos and Cintiqs.

[darkmagistric]

Did I read that right? It has tilt sensitivity, too? Do other tablets have this too? I thought that feature was reserved for Intuos and Cintiqs.

.....it is......the Surface Pro has already been tested with other Tablet PC pens....meaning it has the exact same pen digitizer in every other Wacom Penabled Tablet PC. Bamboos, Intuos, and Cintiqs use a different frequency. The 1024 leves of pressure is a firmware hack...and the calibrations one thing.....but tilt?.....Granted I don't have a Surface Pro to confirm...but I highly doubt it has tilt control. Me thinks they are just over inflating their specs to upsell the product.

[Griffonnage]

Also the Cleartype Display tech has a very thin optical stack which gets your pen tip closer to your ink.

What is that ?

[thegiffman]

.....it is......the Surface Pro has already been tested with other Tablet PC pens....meaning it has the exact same pen digitizer in every other Wacom Penabled Tablet PC. Bamboos, Intuos, and Cintiqs use a different frequency. The 1024 leves of pressure is a firmware hack...and the calibrations one thing.....but tilt?.....Granted I don't have a Surface Pro to confirm...but I highly doubt it has tilt control. Me thinks they are just over inflating their specs to upsell the product.

We'll know soon enough. This is coming from one of the engineers though - if it doesn't have tilt then I dare say that would qualify as a "lie" rather than inflation. Microsoft may have the clout to get more out of Wacom than your average OEM - especially for their signature product. They do seem reluctant to just say "it's Wacom" - there appears to be custom alterations. The lack of any digitizer graininess and the low parralex, I believe, are atypical of standard penanled tablets (though I'm no expert).

Anyway, I'll have mine on Saturday. Anyone want to explain how I might confirm tilt or true 1024 sensitivity?

[Griffonnage]

Anyway, I'll have mine on Saturday. Anyone want to explain how I might confirm tilt or true 1024 sensitivity?

For the tilt I think you can just open photoshop cs5 or 6, take one of the special brushes, these who looks like "real" one and just change the angle of the stylus. The preview of the brush should move too... I think you can see that in painter too...

For the real 1024 pp no clue, sorry

[technokill]

I ve read a review about the surface pro and they said the pen felt cheap, as well as somewhat unresponsive. Drawing/painting with lag or lack of accuracy cant be good right.

Ill wait for more reviews on the matter before making a choice.

[elgwen]

in this short exemple, it seems laggy compared to galaxy note 10. and the accuracy due to the thickness of the screen doesn't look so amazing that in their past conference few month ago...and it could explain why microsoft doesn't publish more videos ?

[LN824]

I purchased the Surface Pro yesterday, and the first thing I did was install all of my drawing apps. Sketchbook pro worked great. There was true pressure sensitivity. However, when I tried Phooshop, I couldn't get the pressure sensitivity to work. I went to shape dynamics and tried to select pen pressure and it gave me an exclamation point, which I think stands for not available. I remember when I had my tablet pc, I had to download a Wacom driver to get the pressure sensitivity, but I don't think this is a Wacom penabled device.

Does anyone else have a surface pro and know how to get pressure sensitivity in photoshop?

[bahferretboy]

the tabletpc forums are all talking about this wacom issue too. People are starting to worry that its a wacom/microsoft hybrid device, and therefore wacom wont release any official drivers for it- which is worrying!
on the other hand, someone pointed out that the wacom site has a section for tabletpc drivers, and it has yet to have any drivers put in it- indicating that some are in the works

[LN824]

Actually there are already drivers in the TabletPC section at Wacom. I tried one, and it said "A supported tablet was not found on the system". I am starting to worry that there will not be a fix for this. If one doesn't come soon, I'll be forced to return the Surface. Lack of pressure sensitive brush in Photoshop is a deal breaker.

[LN824]

Could you give me a link, so I can see what they are saying in the TabletPC forum?

[Griffonnage]

http://forum.tabletpcreview.com/microsoft/ the general microsoft tablet pc forum
http://forum.tabletpcreview.com/micr...c-drivers.html The thread about wacom drivers

[thegiffman]

I can confirm that this is certainly an issue - and potentially a deal breaker for me as well. Which would be more than a little shame, in that this machine is an absolute dream. As far as I can tell, this is the tablet I've always wanted: powerful enough to be my main PC, with a fantastic pen and digitizer for art, beautiful high resolution screen, and light enough to carry around like a little sketchbook. The pen certainly doesn't feel "cheep" - it's full sized and feels better than any stylus in a tablet pc I've ever used. The only thing better I've felt are the actual Wacom pens themselves. Oh, and if you aren't throwing a high-power task at it, the machine is utterly silent. So much so that I can draw in bed without bothering my wife. The touch cover is great, and the kickstand turns the tablet into an easel with enough resistance to draw quite well upright. Never had such a thing in a tablet pc - I can draw AND have all the key modifiers. Plus the build quality is amazing - quality I haven't seen from anyone else but Apple in a good while. I'm in love with this thing.

But the Wacom driver problem is huge. Photoshop doesn't pick up pen pressure or touch gestures. Sketchbook Pro is amazing, but Photoshop is my tool.

A point of interest is that my old fujitsu tablet reads the new surface pen just fine. And the fujitsu pen works fine on the surface. So there's definitely Wacom technology here. It's just a matter of Wacom or Microsoft releasing drivers to support the WinTab interface that Photoshop uses - or Adobe adjusting to also use the other interface that the other programs use. Pure software issue. As far as I'm concerned, they have 14 days - that's how long I have to decide if I want to return this beautiful computer. I'm going to contact both Microsoft and Wacom support - maybe even Adobe support too.

[bahferretboy]

so microsoft surface is out, but it has an issue with the pen. Personally, I'm confident it will get fixed- no idea when, but pretty sure it will be addressed.

As a back up, i have only recently found out about the lenovo Helix. This is meant to be very good and, after the surface, the next big tablet that everyones talking about. Plus, it comes out in only 2 weeks! (ish). The only problem as far as I'm concerned, is it's a very ugly tablet. That tiny red button is horrible, and the diagonal 'thinkpad' printed on the keyboard is so tacky. What were they thinking~!
Oh well. Technically, it's meant to be great, that's the main thing.
Anyone heard any fascinating tidbits on this device?
I've been doing a little digging and havn't found anything mind blowing yet. Havn't even found out what tech the pen is, but the amount of praise and attention it's getting, I can only assume its Wacom. (And a wacom that works, at that)
edit: oh, only other downside, is it's meant to be a lot more expensive. Base units starting at around $1500
edit2: just saw this; http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4FASy...ature=youtu.be sounds good!

[buzzelli]

Hi!
I hope i am not too much Off Topic,
has anyone tried SpeedyPainter on Microsoft Surface Pro?
I am the developer of SpeedyPainter, and i am very curious to know if it works and has good performance on Surface Pro.

The software is available for free here:
speedypainter.altervista.org
(The program is only 1.9 MB and does not require installation).

If someone tried it I will be very interested in knowing his feedback!
Thank you in advance!
Andrea

[EDIT]
mm, from what I've read it seems that wacom Wintab library does not work on surface pro
this is very disappointing, since also my program uses that library to get pen pressure..

however this article gives some hope for the future:
http://pocketnow.com/2013/02/11/surf...sure-photoshop

[Griffonnage]

Some news I found today : samsung is now a part of wacom society, they invested 58 millions $ in it. They will be minor part in the wacom society, but with the new samsung 8 inches, the next galaxy note 6 inches all with stylus included, I can see they intend to continue developping hardware with stylus and pressure sensitivity in the future.
That is a very good new, Samsung android tablet and now windows 8 tablets have wacom in it. I hope now wacom will provide them a new and a better digitizer for the next iteration, even if it's common knowledge Wacom do not want to spoil the cintiq market.

I still do not bought any tablet pc, I was hoping to find one powerfull enough to do some 3D task and sketch/quick painting with a minimum autonomy (lets say 4-5 hours). Samsung 700T ativ pro is still the ebst competitor for that (not sure an atom can run Zbrush eh ?) but I hoped to see some other brand releasing pen enabled device.
Microsoft have some fix to do, I don't know other i5 tablet with pen for now, do you ?

Is there any people with w8 tablet, no matter the brand or core, that can share there impression, though ? What do you think about this generation by comparison with androïd tablet or win7 ?

[Mruk]

Hi

I bought samsung smart pc pro recently, so if you have any questions I can test it for you.

[Griffonnage]

Oh that's nice I have a few questions about this one, but it will depend on the use you have of it.
As already said, I'm looking for something that can run Zbrush and photoshop/mypaint. Here are my questions, if you can answer some of them, you will definitly help a lot :

- If you are a Zbrush user, can it run Zbrush smoothly with enough performances for rough sculpt ? If yes, is there some lag at any point (moving objets, subdivision levels ?)

- About photoshop : months ago (almost at the release), an user made a review showing poor performances at some point http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=63tLJ2qwZdg

I suppose you have the latest drivers and win8 upgrades. If you do the same tests this guy did with very big brush and opacity overlay, do you have the same results ? Is the ativ pro get improvement since then ?

- About heat : some surface pro reviews and samsung pro reviews as well reported some "heat" while using them for big tasks. Heat is something very subjective but do you experienced something similar, at the point you have to drop it because you can't handle it because of the heat ? Or stop/close software to let it cool ?

- Do you happen to have the infamous "keyboard disconnection" reported by some users ?

- Mainly, what do you think of it as an "art on the go" tool ?
Do the battery life can let someone use it seriously for a few hours (let's say, art class for exemple, drawing from life outdoor ?)

Thanks a lot for your input

[philofmars]

http://www.penny-arcade.com/2013/02/25

review

[andya147]

having had all the tablets and convertible laptops here is my take on it all..first of all I think they should make a similar spec to the sony duo 11 but with a touchpad and a 12 or 13 inch screen ..that would be perfect ..and why use 1080p screens on such small screens is beyond me ..yes if it is 13inch cool but not on a 10.6inch surface pro ..here are my favourite machines in order ..there is no perfect machine yet ..

Fujitsu LifeBook T902 (powerful 16gb ram ssd hard disk ,i5 or i7 ..1600x900 screen which is perfect,,fantastic accuracy with the Wacom
cons ...a little bit thick and a lot of money .

Lenovo x230t (love this machine 16gb ram fast sata 6gb ssd i7 or i5 touch and pen screen .nice to hold and doesn't get hot ..
cons ..backlight bleed ..pen accuracy around the edges,,,but with the new Wacom drivers things are much much better..

sony duo 11 (nice design great screen good keyboard..accurate pen and good touch
cons ..no pen holder ..limited to what config you buy ,so if you get 4gb ram you cant upgrade ony goes to 8gb ram ..windows 8 which I cant stand ,no touch pad 11.6inch screen with 1080p res hard to work with ..ok for sketching but for serious work not the size I would want to use all day ..really need the extended battery with pen holder ..then you will get around 10hours ..it will cost you though .. expensive for what it is n-trig instead of Wacom

Samsung slate 7 (lovely screen good pen accuracy .nice feel when holding it ..light. i5 4gb ram
cons .....can get a tiny bit warm and throttles the cpu so you need a firmware update to stop this
battery life only 4gb ran not upgradable

surface pro (great idea.fast .nice design
cons ... 10.6 inch screen with a 1080p display is just to small to do any serious work ..gets very hot ..no pressure in photoshop ..may come in time ..if they had the price point a bit lower I think they would do ok ,,but you can get better for less

motion j3400 (great machine ..hotswappable batterys ..very very accurate Wacom ..great screen is you opt for the outdoor one
cons ... 4gb ram limit dual core cpu ..so for sketching superb for anything serious the ram will cause problems


ive got a lot more machines but I will some it up

Lenovo x230t even though it has a few problems like backlight bleed is superb for drawing and doing 3d work ..I actually think it will take 32gb ram but this has not yet been confirmed ..with a i7 or even the superb i5 and 16gb ram and a 512gb ssd this thing smokes ..the fugi t902 is better built and is better in my opinion but is far more money that the x230t ...so my vote at the moment would be the x230t


now for sketching and simple drawing on the move etc I would go either

ipad 4 also get a jaja stylus or a jot touch ..they work really well .to me all apple stuff is overpriced but there is a lot of versatility with the ipad
Microsoft surface pro heat is my biggest concern with drawing for hours
Samsung ATIV Smart PC Pro a bit overpriced
Samsung slate 7 because the price at the moment is good for then

to me the most important part is the screen I feel 13.3 inch is nearly perfect but it needs to be in a light body and also have a i7 chip with lots of ram ...maybe this year things will start getting thinner and lighter

if im lying in bed the x230t to me feels the most comfy ..then I would say the sony duo 11

the fugi t902 is the best out of all of them but you pay the price

[K.L.]

Well, just for other people like me, who are on a tight budget and yet still would like to have a taste for mobile on-screen drawing, Id mention some old Wacom Penabled laptops. I happen to own a Fujitsu Siemens Lifebook T4220, and Im quite happy with it. I know it has only 256 pressure levels, I know I cant work on it with high res pics or very big brushes. Still, for my uses, that seems quite enough. And you HAVE to mention the fact, that for my second hand laptop i gave around 190$... Thats not even 1/10 of the 2200$ id have to pay for a Fujitsu LifeBook T902. Anyone on a tight budget should at least try such equipment and check, if its enough for him

[andya147]

I agree if your on a budget I would go for some of these

motion 1600
motion 1700
x61t
hp 2710p
hp2730p

all very very good and the accuracy of the pen is superb on all...all motion tablets have the Wacom board but it is the same one that is in the high end cintiq

I have to say that most things older to me are allways better made ..in this climate we are in its about profit and not quality ..I have a motion 1600 and 1700 from when they first came out and they are still working as if they were new on day 1 ..that's how well made they are..nowadays lower quality parts and more profit ...if you cant afford the x230t or fugi as kt mentioned there are some good bargains to be had but as with anything there are limitations

[Griffonnage]

Hmm considering this post and all informations in it, I'm wondering if it can be interesting to summarise these information in one thread and stick it somewhere.

When it comes to digital art "mobile" there is a very large choice now that can fit a lot of needs with various prices.
That could be really interesting to help people looking for a laptop remplacement or for those searching for a tablet for drawing from life outside or sketch during travels. Not everyone is searching for the same thing but having a list of what is possible and what it cost approximatively can be helpfull !

Correct me if this summarise is wrong, I will edit later I just try to collect all the names I remember after reading this thread and another. I try to list them by screen size. If some have the same screen size, I try to list them by core/Ram power.
Finally, I really have difficulties with fujutsu. They have a lot of devices and I'm lost trying to find what are these working well with wacom digitizer. Any other peoples know some ?

I think I will add the hrz for each core and search for the graphic chipset too...

Laptops/convertible type (screen and keyboard can't be separated) :


- Fujitsu LifeBook T902 2200$
13.3 inch, 1600 x 900, touch-pad, Wacom
i5 or i7 core, 16 gb RAM, fast SATA or SSD hard disk

- Lenovo ThinkPad x230t 1300$ to 1500$
12.5 inch, touch-screen, 1366 x 768, Wacom
i5 or i7, 4 to 16 gb RAM, fast SATA or SSD

- HP EliteBook 2740p -didn't find the price
12.1 inch, touch-screen, 1280 x 800, Wacom
i5 Core, 4 to 8 gb RAM, SATA hard drive

- Sony Vaio Duo 11 1500$ to 1800$
11.6 inch, touch-screen, N-Trig
i5 or i7, 4, 6 or 8 gb RAM, SSD hard disk


**** Old generation (can be found refurbished) ****

- HP EliteBook 2730p
12.1 inch, 1280 x 800, Wacom, touch-pad
Intel Core 2 Duo, 3 to 8 gb RAM, SATA Hard Drive

- Lenovo ThinkPad X200
12.1 inch, 1280 x 800, touch-screen, Wacom
Intel Core 2 Duo, 2 gb RAM, SATA Hard Disk

- HP Compaq 2710p
12.1 inch, 1280 x 800, wacom, touch-pad
Intel Core 2 Duo, 2 to 4 gb RAM, SATA Hard Drive

- Lenovo ThinkPad x61t
12.1 inch, touch-screen possible, 1024 x 768, Wacom
Core 2 duo, 1 to 4 gb RAM, ?? Hard disk


Tablet PC (Screen alone or can be separated from keyboard) :

- Motion J3600 didn't find the price
12.1 inch, dual touch screen, wacom
i5 or i7 core, 2 to 16 go RAM, SSD hard disk

- Samsung 700T ativ pro 1200$ - 1300$
11.6 inch, 1920 x 1080, multi touch-screen, wacom
i5 core, 4 gb RAM, SSD hard disk

- Microsoft Surface Pro 1000$ - 1200$
10.6 inch, 1920 x 1080, multi touch-screen, wacomicrosoft
i5 core, 4 gb RAM, SSD Hard Disk
Warning : currently the wintab drivers isn't working, this device will not work with photoshop, z-brush or other softwares using wintab !

**** previous generation ****

- Asus EEE pad 121 slate arround 800$ or 500$ used
12.1 inch, 1280 x 800, touch-screen, wacom
i5 core, 2 to 4 gb RAM, SATA Hard Disk

- Motion J3400 didn't find the price
12.1 inch, dual touch screen, wacom
Intel core 2 Duo, 2 to 4 go RAM, SSD hard disk

- Samsung 7 series 1100$ new or arround 700$ used
11.6 inch, 1280 x 800, touch-screen, wacom
i5 core, 4 gb RAM, SATA Hard Disk

**** curent generation atom core ****

- Samsung 500T ativ 650$ - 550$
11.6 inch, 1366 x 768, multi touch-screen, wacom
Intel Atom core, 2 gb RAM, SSD

- Asus Vivo Tab 810t 800$
11.6 inch, 1366 x 768, multi touch-screen, wacom
Intel Atom core, 2 gb RAM, SSD
This one seems to be discontinued ?

**** Old generation (can be found refurbished) ****

- Motion computing LE1700 400 $ or less
12.1 inch, Wacom
Intel duo core, 2 to 4 gb RAM, HDD Hard Disk, support SATA

- Motion computing LE1600 300 $ or less
12.1 inch, Wacom
Single core, 2 gb RAM, HDD Hard Disk


Tablet (no windows OS) :

Android :

- Samsung Galaxy Note 10.1 450$
10.1 inch, wacom stylus
- Samsung Galaxy Note 8.0 ?? $
8 inch, wacom stylus
- Samsung Galaxy Note II (Smartphone) 650$
5.5 inch, wacom stylus
- Samsung Galaxy Note (Smartphone) 500$
5.3 inch, wacom stylus

iOS :

iPad + Jaja stylus or Jot Touch stylus

[andya147]

its a good list and will help people decide ..as you say all about budget and what you want to do ..fugi work hard in getting the pen accuracy correct and they are the most accurate i have seen ,..the motion tabs are second best for this ...its all about how you calibrate and the angle of the pen is very very important when you calibrate

good list well done ..hopefully will help a lot of people

[Griffonnage]

Thanks andya147 I'm glad you give us your opinion about all these devices you tested, I found that really helpful ! If you don't mind I would like to quote you at the bottom of the post, as well as other people that have tested any or many of these devices. That could give an hint more for those who hesitate between one or another devices

edit : new thread created and sticked thanks to Nemome ! K.L if you want to share more of your opinion about the Fujitsu Siemens Lifebook T4220 (I will add it too, I forgot it in the list ^^) it would be awasome !

[andya147]

hi Griffonnage,,yes thats ok with me ..if i can help in anyway i will.....not everyone can afford a lot of these devices as to me a lot are overpriced for what they are