Dragon WIP- Crit Needed

[WingedWishes]

Quick notes on the image - the hand is more detailed than it should be because I need the practice regarding them desperately. It's still a normal non-anthro dragon, but maybe I should change that?

This also is combining a whole host of weaknesses I have, so I am certain there are a lot more issues than what I could possibly see. So fire away!

[WoofyDesigns]

Reference, reference and more reference. The back is more curved in real life (Human anatomy) If that is what you are trying to depict? The wings are in front of the arms? It looks like you have tried to foreshorten the arm, once again, get references! Oh and also the nose looks like it is bending around to be able to point at the camera, that needs foreshortening.

[WingedWishes]

Omfg. That was what was up with the back that was bugging me. x.x Bleargh. Also, totes hear you about the nose. They are duly noted and will be fixed. Thank you for everything!

[Vermis]

Wait...

It's still a normal non-anthro dragon

The back is more curved in real life (Human anatomy) If that is what you are trying to depict?

That was what was up with the back that was bugging me.

... what?

[Hexokinase]

What real life anatomy are you basing the dragon on? Dinosaur (avian)? Mammalian? Reptilian? That will dictate how the anatomy should look.

The wings are also incredibly small. Though it's impossible to have a creature with the typical structure of a 'dragon' actually capable of flight, it's good design to at least have the wings large enough (and the surrounding muscles strong enough) for some semblance of believability.

[WingedWishes]

Vermis - I was unclear, but the back itself was way too straight for what it was. It needed curvature. D: My bad entirely for muddling things.

Hex - I'd like to base it more on something along the lines of dinosauric when I really think hard on it. Part of me is debating the front limbs at all considering they are giving me such trouble since you do mention the impossibility of a flying dragon to begin with. My brain can't wrap around wings and arms being in the same area. That way there can be more focus on the wings and making them larger along with something more sizable in regards to musculature.

Overall the idea probably needs scrapping if not an entire redo, but you guys have made incredibly valid points in regards to what I've done thus far. I'll go about fixing this image with your advice and get it looking nice before I decide to entirely throw it all out, however.

[Hexokinase]

Check out how artists like Todd Lockwood (and other MTG artists) handle the arm/wing dilemma. There are many ways to solve the issue, but it helps to know the anatomy of the shoulder for humans, bats, birds, dinosaurs, etc, then come up with your own solution. Even realistic renderings of 4-armed ogres can help. You need to decide what type of front limbs you'll have (quadrupedal vs bipedal), and what range of motion they should have. For flight to be 'possible', the wing's shoulders should have the most room to move about. You could introduce a slight (or extreme) vertical stagger for the insertion points of the arms and wings. If the limbs are largely human-like, you'll need dedicated pectoral equivalents for both the arms and wings, and dedicated rotator cuff equivalents (teres major and minor, infraspinatus, etc). For the greatest range in motion, the arms and wings might each need their own scapula equivalent. It's a complicated process if you don't understand your anatomy, but if you do it's like designing a biological machine.

Biggest thing to practice now though would be constructive form drawing. Draw through the figure and accurately display the perspective of each body part. Cubes, spheres and cylinders.

[WingedWishes]

Oh, I will. I know how much I need to study things. I'm gonna go back to the drawing board on this guy and really get him going.

and I think I will. Perspective is a huge weak point for me and it's something I want to be much better at. I did a practice sketch today using a screen grab as reference from Skyrim just to get the feel for it. I took multiple angles of the dragon's head in hopes to getting to sketch them all and try to absorb things.

[TinyBird]

I did a practice sketch today using a screen grab as reference from Skyrim just to get the feel for it. I took multiple angles of the dragon's head in hopes to getting to sketch them all and try to absorb things.

Personally I'd go out an buy a good dragon toy and draw from that (or sculpt your own, or both) and study real animals (like lizards in a zoo or pet shop), rather than go with 3D screenshots. Game 3D just isn't very good to learn to draw from.

[Tony Meijer]

Then, let us do a part by part going over and discuss them. My viewpoint will be from one of dinosaurs since those are the ones that I have the most experience with, so take all my critique with a pound of salt .

1. Full Body: There are a lot of proportion problems going on here. First of, both the wings and the arms are way to small, even if your going for the anthro-look. Remember, the arm plus the hand are supposed to get down to the thigh. You might be able to get away with that length on a dino, but in that case its way to thick. The back feel very stiff as well, a bit of an S curve their perhaps?

2. Head: Dinosaurs don't have a lot of facial muscles, neither does lizards and I don't think they would be able to smile to be honest (I'm far from an expert though). You can find an image of a dinosaur skull here that sort of looks like what you are trying to do with dragon's head. I would look at it, especially where and how the eyes are positioned. Also, the horns at the back are of different size, this might be done on purpose but it looks a tad wonky.

3. Arms/Forelegs: A dinosaur would not be able to bend their left arm that way, on account of lack of horizontal-mobility (or simply put, they cannot bend their arms upwards, so you will always win in arm-wrestling with them, yay!).

4. Hands: The hand is about one half of the forearm, and the palm of the hand is about half the hand with your fingers being about as long (not counting the wrist).

4. Legs/Hindquarters and tail: Looks okey.

5. Wings: To small for practical flight and at the moment they would cover the arms/hands. Consider if you want to do that, the hands can convey a lot of emotion. They would also remove a lot of the background on the right side of the image.

Thats my quick two cents (or ören as we say here in Sweden).

[LordLouis]

Okey, to begin with Sycra have a good video-series on how to draw dragons.

Not to critique your critique, but: Sorry but those videos are rubbish. Not only is is just a walk-through of how he draws a dragon, it isn't even a good one. I mean, even I could draw that. It doesn't address anything that would be of use- anatomy or simplified forms, let alone foreshortening. The only part which is remotely useful is 5 of 5, in which he draws dragon heads in perspective boxes & attempts foreshortening(very sloppily- just look at 18:39) and the colours are all over the place.
You're better off watching FDZ videos. Or better still, massiveblack, gnomon etc. pp.
Painting an apple has taught me more how to draw a dragon than that video.

[Tony Meijer]

Not to critique your critique, but: Sorry but those videos are rubbish. Not only is is just a walk-through of how he draws a dragon, it isn't even a good one. I mean, even I could draw that. It doesn't address anything that would be of use- anatomy or simplified forms, let alone foreshortening. The only part which is remotely useful is 5 of 5, in which he draws dragon heads in perspective boxes & attempts foreshortening(very sloppily- just look at 18:39) and the colours are all over the place.
You're better off watching FDZ videos. Or better still, massiveblack, gnomon etc. pp.
Painting an apple has taught me more how to draw a dragon than that video.

Removed the link, point taken.

[TinyBird]

Not to critique your critique, but: Sorry but those videos are rubbish.

I have to agree, dude has great caricatures but that dragon is pretty awful in almost every aspect.

But I just remembered, Muddy Colours recently had several dragon illustration related posts and they're sharing the posts in a file!
http://muddycolors.blogspot.fi/2012/...-with-bow.html

[Vermis]

Wait...

My viewpoint will be from one of dinosaurs...
First of, both the wings and the arms are way to small, even if your going for the anthro-look. Remember, the arm plus the hand are supposed to get down to the thigh.
4. Hands: The hand is about one half of the forearm, and the palm of the hand is about half the hand with your fingers being about as long (not counting the wrist).

... what?

Will people please stick to the anatomy that they say they'll concentrate on?

Not to critique your critique, but: Sorry but those videos are rubbish.

Second video, 4:35 - consummate Vs! Plenty of not-so-hidden ones before that, though.

I might just go sign into youtube in a while. In the meantime, I don't know what I could add to most of the advice already given but nods and murmurs. Maybe the usual clutch of links. (I hope they don't need too much explanation)

http://uwdc.library.wisc.edu/collect...ce/VetAnatImgs
http://www.skeletaldrawing.com/
http://online.academyart.edu/resourc...emonstrations/
http://www.pterosaur.net/restoration.php
http://www.arkive.org/