Breaking Gender Roles

[Alice Herring]

Yeah, because people who look like this and don't compete professionally are so attractive with their heart disease, type 2 diabetes, cancer, arthritis and sleep apnea all before their 40. Since over one third of America is obese lets make all the media reflect that, so fat, unhealthy people can feel good about being that way. Its so American.

Er...dpaint, which post are you responding to? If it's the water polo player there are gonna be WORDS...

Anyway, in general:

Being obese is a problem; but so is the shaming and bulling that goes on. Representing a woman who is a size 6 as a "plus sized" model is frankly ridiculous. The average model is 5'11; at that height the recommended range is 135-156. The average weight of the models? 117.

117.

(I'd also like to see women's jeans sold in waist/length measurement like men's jeans, rather than numbers - but that's an entirely different argument.)

While I don't want to advocate for bad habits, I don't think that means we as consumers can't push for diversity - in race, gender, and body-type.

[Alice Herring]

Batwoman doesn't seem consistent with her style. Am I wrong to think there might have been some heavy referencing going on? I feel like something's missing from this story. It doesn't seem right that she would present this and the first thing out of a professional's mouth was "She's fat, go away until you're drawing exactly like the rest of us".

You know what bugs me?

It looks like she's not wearing a bra.

WHY WOULDN'T SHE BE WEARING A BRA?

[Arshes Nei]

Yeah, because people who look like this and don't compete professionally are so attractive with their heart disease, type 2 diabetes, cancer, arthritis and sleep apnea all before their 40. Since over one third of America is obese lets make all the media reflect that, so fat, unhealthy people can feel good about being that way. Its so American.

Says the fat man with cheetoh colored fingers

[Elwell]

I (generally) like eschergirls, and the underlying issues it raises are legitimate and important. However, that post with the Batwoman pic really raised my hackles, since the drawing has a TON of problems, many of which are legitimately, if not diplomatically, addressed in her report of the crit she got. I know it's impossible, but I'd really like to know exactly what that editor said, and how accurate her telling of it is. He may well have been as big a jerk as he comes off as, but, on the other hand, she may have heard more than what was actually said. As someone who makes part of their living from critiquing student work, I know how common that is. Sexism, objectification, and body image are real issues in comics and fan culture, but they're not excuses for bad drawing.

[SigonWulf]

Blam! Proof you can be pretty and an ass kicker.

[crossmirage]

I would just like to mention there are a lot of different kinds of "fat". What appears to be just fat at first glance does not mean that it doesn't come with muscle, or that the person is unhealthy.

[manlybrian]

I like fat chicks.

[Arshes Nei]

Blam! Proof you can be pretty and an ass kicker.

No one said that beautiful women couldn't exist with a build. People are saying not all of them need to look like lingerie models and diversity would be appreciated

[Aly Fell]

For a non stereotypical vision of women (in the pin-up world at least) I suggest looking at the work of Les Toil.

Les's work is humorous and inclusive!

[Star Eater]

Mitch Byrd is worth looking up as well then. Fantastic artist, but a lot of his stuff
is NSFW.

[dpaint]

Says the fat man with cheetoh colored fingers

6' 7" and 215 lbs at 57 years old. Who you calling fat?

[Deadlyhazard]

To me it becomes incredibly annoying when you look through most artist's portfolios and only see goddamned sexy girls that don't even fit within the context they're given. So we have this warrior girl from the north who was battle hardened over 20 years of training in the snowy wilderness? LETS GIVE HER A METAL BIKINI AND HAVE HER BOOBS SHOWING ALMOST ENTIRELY as she fights in the icey snow! GENIUS.

It goes beyond sexism for me, too -- although that is a part of it. It becomes boring and generic when its the primary thing you see on a daily basis when looking at character designs. It literally dulls my mind when I look over an artists portfolio and see sexy bikini warriors almost every day. Get a more original idea (even if originality is hard to come by these days), rather than trying to appeal to the lowest common denominator of an audience. Entertainment should be about appealing to a large array of emotions and ideas -- rather than to one's genitals.

[Arshes Nei]

6' 7" and 215 lbs at 57 years old. Who you calling fat?

I am!

Seriously though.

One of the observations I noticed is a lot of guys complaining about girls being fat, not being in the best shape themselves. Often times one of the heartbreaking things I've seen is ugly nerds commenting on a girl's physique just to point of berating her for having a bit of a tummy bulge which a bulge is natural.

I don't think there should be books chock full of fat superheroes, but it wouldn't be surprising if there was one that was overweight or of different physiques.

Amanda Waller isn't a hero but a villain, big black lady. I never went. "fuck she's fat, can't do anything" but they made her an interesting character. Kingpin is a big fatty, a male and it works.

But I think it was argued before the sameness of superhero women (not to mention the impossible poses at times) is not cool. Although I'm talking about 3 villain/heroes here's an example of how I'd view each character.

Harley Quinn - I kinda view with a gymnast body and not necessarily Chesty LaRue I kinda think she's more thin build with some athleticism ...but on the other hand...

Poison Ivy - I kinda think of a Rubenesque. To me Poison Ivy is probably part plant with Photosynthesis and a meat eater I can see her on the more plump side, but not necessarily obese. She could probably be Chesty LaRue

Catwoman. I figure is athletic and may have an average size chest.

[kev ferrara]

Really, its okay to think you have a bad body or are too fat. Its okay to think you're nose is too big and your chin is too small. Its okay to be bummed out about your hair, your skin quality, your age, your intelligence, your height, your bony knees, your ethnicity, your occupation, or your big flappy ears. Its called being a human being.

As Harvey Dunn said, "We're all out of drawing, every one of us."

Too much societal pressure? Turn off the tv, don't go to movies, stop looking at ads. Live a real life instead.

Those nasty lil' 19 year old boys making fun? Uhhh... Is your emotional life really dependent on the opinion of that demo? (Sucks for you!) You want to prevent 19 year olds from being a marketing opportunity? (Cultural control freaks need to get a life.) Maybe we really should be trying to change the way 19 year old boys' are directed by their hormones? Maybe we should advocate an estrogen dosing program for curtailing young boys natural proclivities. (Mengele!)

The whole body-image inclusivity thing is just going to end up another lifestyle brand with a built in audience who have been conditioned to only buy chubby-but-beautiful products, or I am defiantly big-nosed products, or frizzy-hair-and-proud-of-it products. Do you think Dove soap actually gives a shit about plump women's feelings? Do you think BP hugs trees? Does your self-image really rise and fall on the images from some corporate marketing plan?

If you keep yourself emotionally vulnerable to sticks and stones, which is all this wailing does for anybody, all you will do in the marketplace is announce yourself as marketing opportunity waiting to be exploited (with cheap junk products if possible, as long as the emotional issues of the demographic are scratched.)

We're all weird looking. Get over it. Do something productive.

(I can vouch for Armand being extremely lanky. He looks like somebody dressed up a telephone pole as D'Artagnan.)

[Arshes Nei]

Really, its okay to think you have a bad body or are too fat. Its okay to think you're nose is too big and your chin is too small. Its okay to be bummed out about your hair, your skin quality, your age, your intelligence, your height, your bony knees, your ethnicity, your occupation, or your big flappy ears. Its called being a human being.

As Harvey Dunn said, "We're all out of drawing, every one of us."

Too much societal pressure? Turn off the tv, don't go to movies, stop looking at ads. Live a real life instead.

That's not gonna stop the blatant sexism and imagery. You may have turned off the TV, someone else hasn't.

It would be a great day to walk into work and not hear if the new female co-worker is "hot looking" or "if she looks good in a bikini" mutterings. Where one should be wondering can she do her job, or is she qualified.

By the same token yes, I've seen female coworkers sometimes do the same when a new male worker comes in or asks about his status and money.

To shut out the TV and other media is counter productive to a commercial artist as well. It's a draconian approach to things anyways.

There is just more to "Society's pressure" than just media.

[kev ferrara]

I've known a lot of amazingly beautiful girls who were incredibly competent at their jobs. And I've known a lot of ugly people who were lazy, didn't pay attention, and were blindingly incompetent. In my experience attractive people tend to be more competent at their jobs than unattractive people.

There was also a study published a few years ago that found that ugly people were more likely to lie than attractive people.

All sorts of people who can't do their job get hired for one reason or another.

Guys look at hot girls and think to themselves "she's hot looking." That's life. Get over it. Its a waste of thought space to be concerned about it. And wanting to control other people's behavior is a kind of sickness.

[Arshes Nei]

Guys look at hot girls and think to themselves "she's hot looking." That's life. Get over it. Its a waste of thought space to be concerned about it.

Great. But that's not even what I said.

What you think to yourself is awesome. You see someone attractive and comment on it to yourself that's great. No one is saying take a stab to your eyeballs and penis - how dare you see physical attractiveness.

Talking aloud to other co workers as the first thought of "Well is she hot looking?" is inappropriate. Period.

[kev ferrara]

Talking aloud to other co workers as the first thought of "Well is she hot looking?" is inappropriate. Period.

Nah, that's fine. (unperiod) People are people. You should relax about it. Just call the guys dorks, animals, or pigs. And move on.

If you police the words, you don't eradicate the thought. (See Orwell, USSR.)

[Velocity Kendall]

"In my experience attractive people tend to be more competent at their jobs than unattractive people. "

People instinctively attribute positive characteristics to attractive people.

And people with genuine positive characteristics (talanted, funny, excellent at some task or skill) are often seen as attractive.

"what is beautiful is good"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Physical_attractiveness

"Research has shown that some men enjoy viewing women's breasts,"

[Star Eater]

"Research has shown that some men enjoy viewing women's breasts,"

Alright. In the spirit of disclosure as a moderator, I will admit, I am
actually one of those men.

[Arshes Nei]

If you police the words, you don't eradicate the thought. (See Orwell, USSR.)

That may be true, but maybe it should be amazing that gay men haven't really done this response if a new co worker worker of the same sex is due to arrive for many years before the "Coming out" phase...

Just sayin....

[Psychotime]

This is a bit of tangent, but there are such things as etiquette, common decency, and respect.

It's really annoying when people try to defend they way others express themselves by pretending that criticizing behavior is the same as trying to control their emotions. It's not the drive that's being criticized. NO ONE's saying it's wrong to be attracted to women. It's the way people choose to EXPRESS it that's being criticized.

Good god, I hate the "I'm a man, I can't help it." cop out of an excuse.

[Velocity Kendall]

Alright. In the spirit of disclosure as a moderator, I will admit, I am
actually one of those men.

You sicken me

[Alice Herring]

Nah, that's fine. (unperiod) People are people. You should relax about it. Just call the guys dorks, animals, or pigs. And move on.

If you police the words, you don't eradicate the thought. (See Orwell, USSR.)

One comment is easy to relax about, but the problem is it's almost never just one comment but a pattern of behavior. (Bullying is a pretty good example of this.) While yeah, people will think what they think - there's nothing wrong with expecting a little courtesy and respect either.

Also, tags. heh heh heh. Really? "Control Men Now"?

[littlebones]

Well since so many insist they can't control themselves...

[kev ferrara]

This is a bit of tangent, but there are such things as etiquette, common decency, and respect.

It's really annoying when people try to defend they way others express themselves by pretending that criticizing behavior is the same as trying to control their emotions. It's not the drive that's being criticized. NO ONE's saying it's wrong to be attracted to women. It's the way people choose to EXPRESS it that's being criticized.

Good god, I hate the "I'm a man, I can't help it." cop out of an excuse.

How 'bout that!

The issue is not that people are going to be dicks. The issue is learning to accept that fact because the only way to do something about is to try to legislate/control by law your local environment according to your personal sensitivities. Which is a worse crime. Because who says your sensitivities are all that important? Being offended is okay. It is not your right to be free from offense.

When it gets physical or interferes with work, that's a different matter.

Arshes, I'm not sure I understood your last point.

[vineris]

And people with genuine positive characteristics (talanted, funny, excellent at some task or skill) are often seen as attractive.

It's true. Once we get past the extreme outliers I can't tell who's "good looking" and who isn't, so my decisions about attractiveness are largely based on whether the person is clever, funny, smells okay and is wearing a bicycle helmet.

And wanting to control other people's behavior is a sign that you belong in management.

Fixed.

But seriously, you have to manage what happens at the office because it sets the culture of the workplace. The culture affects what kind of workers you attract. This is what good managers do. They herd workers so they do work, not wander around spreading discord and fucking the team up so nothing gets done.

[kev ferrara]

you have to manage what happens at the office because it sets the culture of the workplace. The culture affects what kind of workers you attract. This is what good managers do. They herd workers so they do work, not wander around spreading discord and fucking the team up so nothing gets done.

Staffing smartly in the first place is an essential issue. And yes, a good manager will cleverly find ways to avoid issues. But I've worked in agencies where there were people who were so thin skinned, reactive, and so demanding of control of all things they found emotionally distressing in the local environment... that they were fired for the sake of the workplace.

[kev ferrara]

People instinctively attribute positive characteristics to attractive people.

Actually, I think there are a massive amount of people who instinctively hate attractive people and assign them negative characteristics (and even whole life stories) before ever talking to them.

[Arshes Nei]

How 'bout that!

Arshes, I'm not sure I understood your last point.

Pointing out the irony of "men who can't control themselves" and what Psychotime later talked about.

I dunno kev, maybe I just want the bullshit excuses for guys who think it's ok to act like manchildren to stop.

It doesn't take much hesitation if someone said something racist in the workplace, so I don't see why the handwringing over something sexist.

Maybe I'd like to see equality and not shitty mindsets...and excuses for it like somehow one can't honestly control themselves. Really is it 4th grade?

And that goes for mindsets about men and their position too. I supported a guy who was not a boyfriend/so, not a relative because he needed help.

Maybe I don't want to have to constantly fend off bullshit that because he's male and not with a job at the time and being supported by a female that "he's a loser"

No, I'm not an idiot and it doesn't stop people from saying things...but really?