"Red wine" (done...)

[elemile]

Good day,

I'd really like to finish this one before New Year wich arrives, well, today so any feedback/correction I could get from you in the next hours will be VERY appreciated...



I had a sketch I have used before, for another work, on wich I basically wanted to change the woman for the character of a fragile girl in her early teens. I had to make her shorter and less developed, but not that much as to make her look like a child. I also changed the guy's face angle and improved a bit the line work to make it all more... endearing, or something.

The next thing I'll have to figure out is the poncho: in the original work (available at my gallery, here) it was solved with an intense red, but for this one I'm uncertain how to handle it at all; the background will likely be a sepia/flesh-colored empty space; the girl is gonna have a bright strawberry blond hair (the guy's one will be rather brown) wich I'd like to make stand out, so my main options for the poncho are golden, pale brown or solid black...



I really hope you guys could give a hand with this in time. Might as well post the work ITT, when it's finished.
Thank you very much in advance.

GALLERY: http://www.conceptart.org/?artist=elemile

[TinyBird]

The girl looks way too curvy and is nearing anorectically thin on her waist, also if her other foot of fully down on the ground and other is lifted, this should change her hip position and raise one buttock slightly. Also the angle of her butt makes it look like she's actually pointing her butt towards us, which looks bit questionable.

EDIT: hopefully this clarifies stuff

[elemile]

2nd attempt. I do want to keep her general silhouette, but hope it looks less crooked/forced, now. Worked mostly on the waist, gluteals and shoulders.

EDIT: sorry, I didn't like them myself. Will upload better ones soon (hopefully).

[elemile]

OK, here are a couple. I dón't know what I'm doing anymore, so please also tell me wich one you like it best or dislike the least and why:







About the poncho: with all the warping going on I just had a revelation: fur (a coyote's or wolf's one)...
Maybe I'll solve it as a fur pelt, or add a throw on the ground, in perspective, over wich they'd be standing on. Sadly, It's not very likely that I'll end it today.

Thanks

[ZodiacAngelsGirl]

you really do not listen to constructive criticism do you.

[Nisshoku]

Um I have to agree with Zodiac. You didn't follow the red lines like... At all. Those two sketches look almost identical. Everything Tiny said is what you need to do. Also, if you have to get this done tonight, go with a simpler texture like sheepskin or something like this. It'll have enough texture to be interesting, but not so much that'll be too complicated or overwhelming. You could also do wool and make it more like a blanket.

Also are you going for an anime or realistic vibe? Cause this looks very anime.

[Taralen]

Hi elemile, you should have taken Tinybird's advice on the girl's waist and buttocks. Even if stylized, a girl's bum does not go that way and the only way for the cheeks to be apart and expose her lower regions would mean her having to stick it out.
Like what Nisshoku said, are you trying to go for an Anime look here? Even so, that should be a reason to have the proportions there really off. Kind of ruins the feel I think you're trying to give through the image...

[TinyBird]

Trust me, this isn't something you can just fix with the Liquify tool, you'll actually have to re-draw parts of the image to fix it.

[elemile]

@ZodiacAngelsGirl
@Nisshoku

A half-anime for the girl, alright; that's why the rather boyish waist line of Tiny bird wouldn't cut it; but I did honestly try to follow his corrections, as far as possible... I might try re-doing it from scratch, but a bit later (I can't hardly see right now, and guess it shows).

Will also take those textures into consideration. Thank you very much.

[elemile]

Trust me, this isn't something you can just fix with the Liquify tool, you'll actually have to re-draw parts of the image to fix it.

As said: I will, man. Please do not think that I disregarded your corrections; they're all very appreciated. Thanks again.

[Taralen]

Uh from what I've seen you haven't done anything... To fix it. >_<
Also Tinybird's drawing is not boyish. The way you drew her bum kind of ruins the feel you were trying to give through your drawing which I assume is pity. =/

[elemile]

Uh from what I've seen you haven't done anything... To fix it. >_<
The way you drew her bum kind of ruins the feel you were trying to give through your drawing which I assume is pity. =/

Sorry, but no: it's a love scene alright.

About Tiny's line: I think I did grasped the dinamic posture he was suggesting (the spine tilted slightly to one side from the thoracic section, in opposition to the lumbar section and hips, right?), but I didn't wanted to go that far and better keep the girl symetrical as possible, steping on her toes, throwing her body essentially up and onto the guy's embrace; it's not working at all, however, so I will elaborate more on that other posture on the re-do.

[TinyBird]

A half-anime for the girl, alright; that's why the rather boyish waist line of Tiny bird wouldn't cut it;

Well, if the girl is only half-anime, then I guess it would be reasonable to expect it to be at least slightly realistic? Not to mention "anime" isn't an excuse for anorexia. And though it always depends on the girl, early teens figure shape is kinda boyish still.






Even if you are trying to draw Asuka, you still have completely different hip/waist ratio here, which makes her look way thinner.

[elemile]

Even if you are trying to draw Asuka, you still have completely different hip/waist ratio here, which makes her look way thinner.

Man... thanks, really: that's exactly the battle that's taking place, in here; I still can't find a decent balance between Sadamoto's proportional style and a more realistic feel for it; I mean: the way he places very small thoracic cages really high over unbelievably sharp waists, together with long slender limbs, renders a very sexy and stylish feel that I wouldn't want to lose completely as I translate it into a style closer of my own...

This is the very root of many of my problems, here and in other pieces, and I'm very happy that you did bring it on. Any ideas about how could I handle this better will be very welcome.

[MisterBoo]

I would also really like for you to beef up that man's hand. It's very delicate and feminine. Just make the wrist a bit thicker.

[Hexokinase]

Stylization is overrated. Go for anatomical accuracy first, then simplify. Tinybird's redline is very strong - I'd take another look at it.

[elemile]

@MisterBoo

Oh! that was intended, in principle (ever heard about Marfan syndrome?); althought unfortunately it keeps bugging some people out, just like some guys here have a taste for muscular men and voluptous woman, I have a general taste for very low weight looking dudes and girls (the influence of ballet, I think you could call it)...

Nevertheless, on a second look, I think you do have a point: that limb gives a little feel of unwanted weakness; I'll might try making it more bony and maybe even put some veins on it (a bit like a Schiele's hand), to give it more character.

Thank you very much.

[elemile]

OK...

Even for my stylization crap, I think I found a fundamental problem: the girl's spine was too elongated (mostly at the lumbar section).



I am gona re-draw this, but still I wanted to give photoshop a last chance to suggest me where to go. I cut a convenient amount of the lumbar section, and re-adjusted the waist-hip ratio (to keep a bit of the aforementioned Sadamoto's feel); I also followed more Tinybird's general line, mostly for the torso's dynamic and the head's upper limit; then, I tried inverting and placing differently the guy's head, with pleasing results; his hairstyle needs to be consistent so I mirrored the entire image: it seems to work...

Please, let me know what you think. Thanks.

Oh! and a very good year to all of you. Best of luck.

[Taralen]

What was the point in flipping it?
Also like what Hexokinase said, put anatomy over style. Yoshiyuki Sadamoto, the artist of Neon Genesis Evangelion still knows his anatomy. It shows in many of his pieces.
While it's good that you shortened the length of her spine, her buttocks still looks off. Like what Tinybird said, it looks like it's pointing at us. I did the pose in the mirror and I am skinny like the girl you drew. The only way I could see that the pose of her bum works like that is if she's literally sticking it WAY outwards. This is extremely uncomfortable, even when leaning against someone/something. The pose of Tinybird's red lines is a lot more natural.

[elemile]

OK, let's do this in order:

What was the point in flipping it?

As said, to keep the guy's hairstyle exactly the same, after mirroring just his head; I liked this way better because it's more endearing: he's now actually looking at her, longing to meet her face and eyes (and all the rest).

Yoshiyuki Sadamoto, the artist of Neon Genesis Evangelion still knows his anatomy

No doubt about it: he's a master, IMO. The problem is not how he made use of that knowledge to build his own style, wich general features I already sort of pointed out, but how can I keep some of them working while doing my own thing. Anyway: I do am taking a good look at my Tortora-Gabowski and other texts, to get things straight as possible.

I am skinny like the girl you drew

lol, you couldn't possibly: my problems spring from that very fact; if I was aiming to draw actual women, or features attainable by actual humans in general, this thread wouldn't exist at all or would be already over with Tinybird's first corrections, indeed. My problem is to offer a coherent/appealing mix between 2D and 3D initially contradictory structures.

I did the pose in the mirror... The only way I could see that the pose of her bum works like that is if she's literally sticking it WAY outwards. This is extremely uncomfortable, even when leaning against someone/something. The pose of Tinybird's red lines is a lot more natural.

Now, this interests me a lot: where did it hurt, exactly? where you had to make the biggest effort? were you effectively letting yourself go towards something stable in front of you?...

Tinybird's pose, apart from the realistic pubescent aproach to the girl's body (more academically accurate, but useless to my purposes), relied heavily on the fact that she would be standing firmily on one foot (thus the heavy tilt of the pelvis) and not in both her metatarsals and toes (like just before she finally decides to give the taller guy a kiss), feet even slightly crossed, like I'm aiming to portray; it'd be, in fact, way more difficult to bend the spine any side under such conditions (as I very well know myself: did ballet for years), wich is why I wanted her to remain straight/vertical, close to her bilateral symmetry axe as possible. About the butt: there's a reason for the Assuka pun to exist... no, seriously: the more I look at it, the less I find it pointing out as a product of a forced lordosis position; I mean: humans may have to do that, but anime girls... well... they just already have it like that all the time, and it's one of the features I'd like to preserve; it's not even a 3-dimensional incoherent feature: it's simply not human; if you look at anime figurines (WAVE's, for example), you could see it in action (not that I use figurines as models, if you started wondering... not this time and not usually, at least).

Anyway: I GREATLY appeciate and commend the effort of you trying to feel the posture by yourself, it's very kind of you. By all means, I will try to do it myself as well to figure out better how to make this look more consistent.

Many several thanks.

[Taralen]

Of course I'm not unrealistically skinny like her but I'm skinny enough to use as reference for the pose.
Did it again and I will tell you that the pose hurts the most on my lower back. Tried the pose more naturally ad I figured out the problem. The leg going in back isn't overlapped properly so the red line below should make it look stylized but more natural.

[elemile]

@Taralen

Thank you very much!

Now, this presents a little problem: dat (persistent) gap between legs, as you might now, it's one of the most beloved characteristics of anime girls (some "lucky" japanese girls sort of have it -or force it- as well: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gSo1bfCAahI), so it'll be a loss at the adjustment...

But this is very useful and I'll find a way to conceal your correction alright. Thank you very much again, for taking the time to empathize with my viewing and helping me with it.

[jacen05]

I dunno, it's kind of like you're using anime stylization as an excuse. I probably am one of the more lenient people when it'd come to this. However, when the anatomical matter was brought up, I realized there is something off.

A while ago, I grazed some of Babe Lab's stuff involving legs. This came to mind http://babelab.blogspot.com/2011/12/...ives-legs.html (nsfw website) What you're talking about is not unnatural (the gap between the legs), and it'd make sense if they have skinnier legs that the gap is more prominent (versus thicker legs).

However, this girl is stepping forth a bit. Meaning she is moving one leg closer closer to her center as with the other to keep her balance and look graceful (think fashion runway model walk). With this the negative space is shrunk. Even with skinny legs this model has no negative space between her when steeping forth http://www1.pictures.gi.zimbio.com/A...YVcmt2-wdl.jpg

I'd suggest taking a better glance Taralen's and TinyBird's edits.

Also did a bit of a search and found it troublesome to find some pixiv artist who did a similar pose with the legs. My search came to this pic http://www.pixiv.net/member_illust.p...st_id=23817991 Not to say this is good, but saying anime nor japanese stylization is reason to overlook an issue like that

[TinyBird]

With this the negative space is shrunk. Even with skinny legs this model has no negative space between her when steeping forth

And I'd also point that said space is also increased and decreased depending on whether the woman in question is wearing pants/panties/etc. Wearing panties tends to pull the labia up/flatten it, thus increasing the triangular gap between the legs (the tighter the pants, bigger the gap). So not only is the girl in the pic having one foot forward, but she's also not wearing anything, which logically really should decrease the gap between her legs to a minimum.

[elemile]

@jacen05
Those links will help me a lot (especially the gap diagram). Thank you very much.

@Tinybird
That makes a lot of sense; I was planning to leave the labia in the shadows, to avoid it all becoming unwantedly explicit (therefore why is not even drawn at all); now I'm actually doubtul about putting some panties on her. Thanks again, man.

[elemile]

This is how the new sketch is going on, by now...
Apart from the corrections on the girl, I also changed the guy's hand for an actual guy's hand.

[elemile]

Better ass... (sorry)

[erinc]

Frankly, I google the weirdest things when I'm on the site.

H'okay, the butt is just distracting at this point. It doesn't really matter how thin or idealized she is, the butt doesn't make sense for the position she is. So, I present to you, butt references.

Your pose is most similar to the leftmost butt, although her hip drop is a bit exaggerated. She is sans gap. If you want gap, and I know quite a few people into it, so there's no judgement, you'd need to mimic something closer to the middle or rightmost pose.

[TinyBird]

Frankly, I google the weirdest things when I'm on the site.

I know, after coming to the Critique forum my most Googled words are pretty much "naked woman" (with every weird variation you can think of) and "bodybuilder"...

[elemile]

...Better? (any more critics about the rest?)