Convincing an artist

[perpetualInsomnia]

I've been having arguments with a friend as of late; being of the perfectionist kind she won't allow any kind of mistakes on her art. Usually spending 8+ hours per drawing and sometimes finding herself stuck trying a pose over and over again, then spending time shading and then coloring...

All this just shows how much she cares about the stuff she does and how much it hurts to her to have mistakes on it.

So when it comes to point them out I don't know what to do.

On one hand I would like to see her improving. She's been doing the same mistakes for a long time and if it weren't for construction/anatomy flaws, I really think her drawings could get to another level.

On the other hand she's my friend and I fear hurting her. She takes all this personally as art is the only things she says not to fail at (she's had plenty of frustrations and letdowns from her family, work and friends); and she goes into self-destruct mode whenever I critique her; she starts ranting on her art being shit, lifeless, blocky,... and then she won't draw anymore in a long while.

I try to convince her that she's actually worth something, but that she's not perfect and that she can't be. That she lacks what others have, but that she's got her own potential to develop and that she can't give up on that.

And that she has to draw more for fun. The perfectionist attitude is hurting her more than making any good, and pulling her back when she could be trying new things.

I want to help her but she won't let herself be helped, and I don't know if I should keep pushing or leave it.

[JDSart]

I´m commenting of course based on personal experience and personal opinion.

The whole perfectionism thing in those kind of situations is often a sort of a self-defence mechanism, is just a way to overcompensate for a lack of certain bases or foundations. A way to find reassurance trough grinding and self beating.

What happens is that yes, theres a lot of effort being put in, mental and phisical, but is not being used smartly, and until that happens breakthroughs are going to be slow and scarce.

And the handicap that causes this sort of slump on her progress probably keeps on existing because for one, is not always easy to accept you just don't know enough, specially being something you have been doing for a while and have invested yourself on a personal level and because facing new knowledge also brings self doubt and new opportunities (in your mind at least) for failure.

Its also requires a constant practice of humbleness to keep considering yourself a beginner even though you practice and practice, and art is like that all the way, there´s always something more down the road you´ll need to work with, part of growing up in this field is accepting that fact and work trough your own path without all of those mental barriers, just keep on finding what you need to advance and move head on towards it.

Its very natural and as anything else in art is a matter of time and practice, is just another muscle that builds up with effort and is mostly a very individual thing, some jump over the obstacles and some don't, is good that you support her as a friend but keep in mind that personal growth is up to her and her alone at the end and everybody has its own walls to hit in the way.

[Smashed_Pumpkin]

It's good to be honest with her but if it's potentially going to affect your friendship then just leave it. Sounds like she needs to get her head around the idea that you only learn from making mistakes. If she's happy with the art she's making then fair enough, no need to push her. On the other hand if she plans on taking her art to any level of professionalism, she will soon realize how valuable having her mistakes pointed out is.

[dpaint]

She sounds like a head case; life is too short, get a new friend.

[enrigo]

I'm going to generalizing heavily,,, if you are her guy friend NEVER become her personal therapist and go to guy for her problems. It will mess you up more than it help her. The messed up effect will be ten fold if you are not doing it just out of pity but with some kind of hope of becoming her boyfriend.

[Raoul Duke]

Let her draw poses over and over again. That's fine she'll have a breakthrough at some point and she'll eventually develop a comfort level with it. If she whines the whole time, then don't join the pity party. If you can't handle trial and error, then art isn't your bag. Cry babies need not apply.

Agreed with Enrigo

[Dusty]

I want to help her but she won't let herself be helped, and I don't know if I should keep pushing or leave it.

If she asks for critique, then give honest critique. If she isn't asking for it, then don't offer it. It's not your place to critique it if she isn't interested in hearing it.

A person getting critiqued needs to be in the mindset to prepare themselves for all of their flaws being pointed out. If they aren't ready for that, you are basically going to ignite that powder keg.

Artists have to want to get better and forcing yourself on her won't help that at all.

[BlightedArt]

Seconding what Dusty said. From personal experience, offer critique to someone that's asking for it. While you obviously mean well in offering critique (helping them improve, good on you), people need to psyche themselves up for it otherwise you're just going to step on toes.


And one of the golden rules is "Don't piss anybody off". Well, for me anyway.

[JFierce]

Another one of these purely opinion threads. But here's mine.

Just a question. What is this persons age? Because honestly if it's something like early teens, constructive criticism is a good thing. But the main thing they need to learn is simply that it's not personal which is the hardest thing.

It's the stereotype of the defiant teenage deviantart user. Give them a little honest critique or feedback on whats wrong then they think either, your wrong, they're shit, they take it completely personally like it's an insult etc etc..... it's natural. I was like 14-15 when I came on here (old username which I lost the email to lol) and posted my stuff. People were just being honest when they said wonky anatomy, this, that, drop the anime etc etc. But they always said "This needs work, here look at this, or read that" which is the biggest difference between most communities where artists post work. Usually it's pure ass pats. Anyways after hearing that of course, I took it personally. But I enjoyed drawing and I wanted to get a bit better at it for myself, not for a career or anything. So I moved past it and learned not to take it personally and give the crits serious thought as there's always something to them usually.


Frankly you need to explain to your friend that art isn't about being a perfectionist. Hell I've learned the most from complete experimentation in things I've never done, that I had no clue what I was doing, and it started out as pure crap. But you learn from your mistakes and move forward slowly. If you can't learn your flaws you'll never improve seriously.

[TinyBird]

Well, I'll echo with others, if she doesn't actually ask critique or want it and she's not going to pursue art as a career, don't give it to her. If you feel you want to help her with her art, you can always tell that you're willing to pose for her as a reference (and ask for her to pose for you, if nothing else you can give a good example to her), ask if she'd want to go out drawing from observation, loan inspiring or helpful books and stuff like that that gives her the reigns to improve on her own, that's not just you pointing her mistakes out.

[nofu]

She might not have reached that phase yet, where she can stop taking critiques personally. From personal experience, if she keeps up with her art she will reach it eventually. I used to be very protective of my art and even though I pretended to take critiques reasonably, they hurt. I guess just let her do her thing for now, offer adequate support where you find necessary.

[JJacks]

Help her realize that it's actually ok to make mistakes and that everyone fucks up. That's how you learn.

A change of attitude can push an artist to take their skill to another level without nearly as much fear or frustration.

[CGMonkey]

You don't have to convince your lady friend (or anyone) how they should enjoy their craft. Show encouragement and support, not everyone is destined to be a bright star on the sky of visual arts.

She also sound very young -- in either case, she'll figure things out. Just be there.

Looking through your Deviant art profile also highlights how you'v repeated the same mistakes for 14 pages straight... Maybe it's time to stop focusing on how to make everyone else better and start focusing on yourself?

[timpaatkins]

and she goes into self-destruct mode whenever I critique her; ranting on her art being shit, lifeless, blocky,... and then she won't draw anymore in a long while.

I try to convince her that she's actually worth something, but that she's not perfect and that she can't be. That she lacks what others have, but that she's got her own potential to develop and that she can't give up on that.

I dont think you are ready to give constructive critiques mate. You sound like a know-it-all patronizing douche.

[Max Challie]

Maybe it's time to stop focusing on how to make everyone else better and start focusing on yourself?

If only I got that message when i joined CA.. :/

[ArtZealot]

I used to be kind of the same way. I would gauge paintings on how much detail was in them, and thought i had to detail everything. Then I discovered Monets work and then other artists who draw and paint really loose and gained a huge appreciation for it. It takes balls to just imply things with a few paintstrokes and not render into them. There's just something awesome about an artist who can let go of the constraints of heavily rendering into something that inspires me.

[CLANLESS]

I've had a few artist friends when I was younger who were negative about their art. Rarely can you reason someone out of perfectionism, they have to find their own way on their own time, so leave it alone and just be her friend in other areas as much as possible. Keep a good distance. Entertaining her bad attitude will only pull you down rather than pull her up.

I would just tell her to draw more for fun, be nice to her, and just leave it at that. Don't tell her she's a Michelangelo when she's not, because that is lying, but don't critique her either unless she asks. It's good you care as a friend but remember that she is not your responsibility.

[Angel Intheuk]

I agree with the advice above.

When I was studying the rule of thumb for critiqueing is "Never offer unsolicited advice, and when asked give it constructively, give a compliment first, talk about what works with the piece and discuss where it is going, what the 'story' is, what the student is trying to say and then point out what 'you think' is hindering that vision, but put in a way like "you know what I think would take this to another level?" and if she's interested she'll ask you to continue, if she's feeling shy and doesn't respond then drop it and leave her to come to the idea herself. If she doesn't then it's not the end of the world really.

Giving her books is the best advice yet though, if you can see where she needs to improve but she's blind to it then that's a good gift to give, and it's in her hands then how to use it, but she might not see it straight away. And learning together is by far the best way to improve, for both of you.

(also just my opinion and learning over the years)

[perpetualInsomnia]

Wanted to let you all know that she's been feeling better for the last days, and has finished a great piece. She needed someone to encourage her more than someone spotting the mistakes for her, you were right on that. Thanks for the help guys.


And also, talking about unsolicited critique: as much as I take the whole get better before trying to get others better, these were a punch below the belt.

[shrunkendesigner]

Wanted to let you all know that she's been feeling better for the last days, and has finished a great piece. She needed someone to encourage her more than someone spotting the mistakes for her, you were right on that. Thanks for the help guys.

Its good to hear this but how long will this state of happiness last? I wouldn't be surprised if she falls back into the woe again and quickly. I feel that encouragement works better when critique hasn't been asked for and always reenforce the good in people's work (even when critiquing, do it like a Stewie Griffin Compliment sandwich).

Remind her that its such a long road and no one every masters the craft. Even the very best in the world, have their struggles with things and avoid drawing them (say feet, for instance).

I think a lot of good advice has been listed above so I can't really add anything new but, generally, she needs to not be so hard on herself and remember to enjoy drawing. Draw crap pictures and rubbish doodles, its all good. It doesn't matter, really, it doesn't. Sure there are a lot of art snobs out there but its that whole mind set of "Dance how you would if no one was looking" sort of thing. Draw with the enjoyment aspect in mind, don't draw for an audience.

That's what I try to do anyway.

[Slothboy3000]

Even the very best in the world, have their struggles with things and avoid drawing them (say feet, for instance).

Who does that??

[TinyBird]

Who does that??

Well, The Best, like... Rob Liefeld?

[shrunkendesigner]

Who does that??

Oh, what I mean is that some of the master artists in the world, like even the best of the best, have the things they still struggle with drawing so, be it conscious or subconscious, avoid doing them. Its the behavioral nature of being an artist. For instance, top of my head, not saying this is actually the case but, Frank Frazetta is considered a master painter. He can do fantasy and anatomy and the freaking works, paint metal that looks realistic etc etc. (could)

But, if you asked him to come up with futuristic fighter jet concepts, he'd probably give it a go, maybe do a good job but it wouldn't be to a standard equal to say, Syd Mead.

Of course there are a number of things at play here:
1: Frank could do that stuff and really really awesome, but chooses not to so you never see such work in his portfolio.
2: It may not interest him so why would he do it? He is interested in Fantasy so he only does Fantasy and doesn't practice the techniques needed to draw fighter jets.
3: Or he struggles with geometrical design work, hate it, can't get his head round it, so avoids doing and sticks to the comfort zone.

This is a hypothetical example and I mean no disrespect to the man as his work is awesome and I am merely making a point. The whole sci fi ship thing is a grander example though. Even on my initial point, it could be something really small and unnoticeable. For instance, FF may have had trouble drawing a ducks beak, so in his work, there are never any ducks.

Sure you could look that in a number of school dissection ways of his entire body of work but, all I am saying (and only each individual artist will truly know their own), is that every artist has stuff they struggle with drawing, that frustrates them no end and, by saying that, the masters are no different from the rest of us.

Its like Quantum Mechanics. The subject is so vast, so technical and so hard to grasp that no one person knows everything about it. You could spend your entire life learning it, but at the end, you may only reach an understanding of half of the subject. Drawing and art is the same, you'll never have enough time in the world to learn how to draw everything to an exceptionally high standard but you will start to focus on 1 area that you excel at. For Frank, it was Fantasy art... but he never got his head round the illusive duck beak... the hardest thing in the world to draw...

[shrunkendesigner]

Well, The Best, like... Rob Liefeld?

Even Rob Liefeld struggles with Duck Beaks...