wtf is wrong with you guys?

[sone_one]

But can you say sone_one, how it was like in 2005? I know this forum myself for not longer than a year, and I haven't noticed much of a change, other than it has just gotten more crowded.

yep, people been scared to post here... it seriously took guts to do so. it had "if you cant stand the heat, get out of the kitchen" written all over it. no ego-petting.

basically "i dont care for your feelings or personality, thats what i have to add to your effort"... thats been good, because it didnt take any professional who felt like helping, to view 87 threads to meet one thats been worthwhile.

and all that whining drives me mad... yeah everyone is precious... so why the need to point it out? get over it and start learning instead of petting yourself, because youre treated as harshly.

if you need an ego boost post elsewhere and waste the time of people that actually care... this is about art.

[Avvatar]

Brandon Pilcher - Rage issues much? I have been reading, and you have been complaining about critiques. Again, if you don't like it then ignore it. I think you need to calm down and think about your path as an artist. At this point you're spending all your time arguing rather than trying to better yourself. Good luck.

[Lhune]

What I was talking about it impressions. If a 16 year old teenie girl comes on deviantart and sees your account, do you think they will go along the lines of "wow, solid anatomy and understanding of form and value"?

As for the last paragraph, yes absolutely. That is what I was trying to say, enhancing it with the example of your own dA account- which I obviously have misrepresented and I apologize. I do not intend to start some furious argument here, sorry.

I wasn't feeling offended by you personally, really . I didn't feel like you were judging me either, but more the entire community of deviantART. I had the feeling you were suggesting that everyone on DA conforms to a stereotype, when you will find, as I hope you have, that there are actually many different groups of artists on deviantART, among which there are actually some who do know what they're talking about.

And yes, I have actually had 15, 16 and 17 year olds commenting on my understanding of anatomy, light and color. Like I said, they really aren't all the same. There is plenty of potential on that site, they just don't really know it themselves yet, and let's face it, the outside doesn't really let them either. A lot of deviantART members are literally afraid of this forum and no matter how much I try to tell them otherwise, they don't dare to join here until they have gotten better, but deviantART won't help them get better much. It's an endless cycle they're getting stuck in.

[LordLouis]

...The final image was a wonderful improvement on what was first begun and the whole thread a moving testiment to the relationship of pupil and master both enrinched from the experience.

That's what this forum should be about.

I guess a safe way of avoiding giving away critique for nothing is simply to wait until someone else has said something, and how the follow-up WIP looks like.

There are many people in this forum who get advice and even redline, and then don't apply any changes. The most common procedure to "solve problems" seems to me is applying colour to linework. Person A comes up with linework 1, and gets critique along the lines of "no perspective", "need thumbnails" etc. Person A then comes back, thanking everyone politely and then posting a WIP with rough colours on the screwed linework, saying "Here is an update, what do you think". That is my personal head-desk moment.

So: ways to avoid critiquing for nothing:
1. Check out the posters previous threads. Have they replied, responded, worked with the critique?
2. Check the Sketchbook if available. If it is full of doodles and showing no sign of wanting to improve, don't bother either.
3. If none of the above are available to check, start slowly. Post a 3-liner pointing out basic issues, and maybe a link to something useful. Just make sure you haven't just written 1200 words on knees and ankles.

-> I think it is possible to avoid frustration by taking a step back and not bothering too much if you can't be sure what the response would be.


EDIT: @Lhune: You are right I was speaking about the broad DA community. I read your journals and I see the responses, so I am aware of teenagers talking about anatomy. And I always hope that some of those might be future CA'lers as well. I was talking about the broad community, because it is braod. You have 13 responses, but how many "watchers"? That sort of relation. I joined here in 2008 after finding a link on kerembeyit's website, and I had the same intention. Get good first, then come here. I don't know why but it had just never struck me that art was about practise. I have been very dismissive of art in general anyway, so I guess ignorance was not bliss this time round. For whatever reasons I have taken this viewpoint in the past- I see many many many people doing the same- and thus I agree strongly with you on sone_ones tone, which I believe is not constructively working on making the CC forum better. That said,starting this discussion can always help :p

[dpaint]

Just to be clear for the really dense out there; when Jeff or me or sone-one or others say you should stop what your doing and work on the basics, it means learn to to copy a simple contour exactly. Cube, sphere, cone. Then render light on its form correctly. Then design simple elements into a composition. Forget about drawing people or environments until you can draw a piece of fruit correctly and render it to look convincing. Not good enough that your mom likes it or your BF or GF but well enough that a pro likes it. Seriously, to not do it that way will add years to your learning process and most likely will keep you a fan wannabe for the rest of your life.

[Lhune]

Just to be clear for the really dense out there; when Jeff or me or sone-one or others say you should stop what your doing and work on the basics, it means learn to to copy a simple contour exactly. Cube, sphere, cone. Then render light on its form correctly. Then design simple elements into a composition. Forget about drawing people or environments until you can draw a piece of fruit correctly and render it to look convincing. Not good enough that your mom likes it or your BF or GF but well enough that a pro likes it. Seriously, to not do it that way will add years to your learning process and most likely will keep you a fan wannabe for the rest of your life.

Alright, but how is a beginner supposed to read exactly that into the simple line "learn the basics"? What you just said would be a hundred times more useful when it takes what, roughly 30 seconds longer to type? That's the point I've been trying to make.

[element1988]

Alright, but how is a beginner supposed to read exactly that into the simple line "learn the basics"? What you just said would be a hundred times more useful when it takes what, roughly 30 seconds longer to type? That's the point I've been trying to make.

Yeah.. just to prove it, i always thought that when ppl said learn the basics they where talking about anatomy,proportion, gesture, perspective etc... im going to get some fruit now.

edit: uh only got crappy apples.. i wanted a peach

[Farvus]

It's not arrogant at all, but I think it's simply less useful than you think it is. It seems very logical to anyone who is already far past that stage, to just "learn the basics". But that's like telling someone who has zero understanding of the human body and wants to become a surgeon to "just learn the basics" as well. They will still be lost, because there is so much to learn, it's really quite intimidating. You could tell them to just start somewhere, but where is that? That's why, for example, linking them to the Loomis books when they are trying to learn anatomy, or to Gurney's "Color and Light" when they need to focus on that, is more useful than just saying that they need to work on the fundamentals.

It sounds like they need to be reminded that books about drawing fundamentals actually exist. There are many books out there about every subject. I don't get why it's so hard to figure out that if someone have problem with anatomy, he can search for anatomy book. Even the crappiest one will be good start.

[sone_one]

No offense intended, but I think you're being a little bit too aggressive, not to mention rather conservative. So you come from the time when there weren't as many computers readily available. Big deal, so am I. They aren't the problem.

I think that, whereas some "newbs" are driving away the more experienced people who could really be of use around here, you yourself are driving away the people that could benefit from this site with your behavior. What you're saying is getting close to suggesting that there is no need for secondary school, college or university, because so long as someone has the drive to learn, they will. That's simply not how it works, the world of art is complex and even the great masters of the past needed guidance of some sort. There's nothing wrong with that. Yes, a lot of beginners today should put much more effort into learning, but I think one of the problems is, as Jeff said, it's so easy to just start drawing, and get half decent without even really having a goal. People have more time nowadays, more money to spend on useless things, more tools and machines to do things for them. People are getting used to everything being easy.

I understand your frustration really, but everything you're saying right now, and particularly the manner in which you're saying it, isn't helping anyone or anything. It definitely isn't making anything better, anyway. The problem is that people need to be more inspired to do something, they need to decide where they want to go in art, because the main cause for the problem you're seeing is a lack of goal, the fact that they don't really need to be serious. And I'm afraid that's something that isn't really going to change any time soon.

i agree with you, and i am glad theres someone like you smoothing the ripples. im just not that kind of person and im aware that for what i say to be fruitful, it takes opinions like yours to put it into perspective.

to be honest i donot consider someone beeing driven away by what i have said, a loss to the world of art or our enviroment. im really sick of this notion of "everyone is so special and worthwhile and should be paid respect if he wants to express himself by the means of visual arts". (and by that alone deserves attention and tender loving care.)

i am aware that i am taking a position that would be the opposite of what i am aiming for, if it would be the only position. yet there is so much "well ment breeding" going on that i felt like relativising it.

[dpaint]

Alright, but how is a beginner supposed to read exactly that into the simple line "learn the basics"? What you just said would be a hundred times more useful when it takes what, roughly 30 seconds longer to type? That's the point I've been trying to make.

Well because if they have half a brain they would look up what the basics in art are, and practice them before starting to draw fifty people fighting on the edge of a cliff. They would have to care enough to do the research themselves. All they have to do is google basic drawing lessons.
And I get tired of telling th esame people you need to learn how to render before you draw anything complex. Brandon is a good example, he should be drawing eggs and cubes not warriors. But no he'd rather waste everyones time arguing about it.

[vineris]

This.
For every lazy newbie who expects to become a professional within a week there's an arrogant "experienced" artist who thinks himself above critiquing newbies' work beyond giving them a vague "work on the basics" answer.

If I stop by side of the road to give you a ride you don't get to call me up again to give you rides whenever you want. And if I only choose to give you a ride halfway it doesn't give you the right to bitch about how arrogant I am for not driving you to your door and helping you out of the car. Nor do you get to bitch about the kind of car I'm riding, the music I listen to or the fact that I don't share my coffee with you.

Nobody owes newbies anything, Brandon. If you don't like it you know where you can find books and courses.

[Lhune]

It sounds like they need to be reminded that books about drawing fundamentals actually exist. There are many books out there about every subject. I don't get why it's so hard to figure out that if someone have problem with anatomy, he can search for anatomy book. Even the crappiest one will be good start.

That's how most people do it, yes. Or used to. But we live in a time where everything is becoming increasingly more easy, hell the fact that we're even discussing this subject right here, right now when we're probably on completely different ends of the world is proof of that. I agree with you though, people should do their own research. When I was only starting out, too, I bought numerous books on how to draw stuff. Basics. Anatomy, too. What I noticed though, is that one book may say something completely different than another. How was I supposed to know which one was right? How was I supposed to know what was the best course to take? Right now I can only wish that there would have been someone back then who directed me to the Loomis books, because they have been more useful than any other "how-to-draw" book I've had in the past and probably still have today. But I had to make do with what I had. Beginning artists today don't have to and I don't actually blame them. They just need to know better where they actually want to go with their art.

[Farvus]

Then the next step would be searching the forum for discussions about anatomy books. Such discussions exist on the internet

[DaEvil1]

Why "newbies" and other apparantly unwanted (at least for posting their work in this forum judging from some posts) aspiring artists come here is relatively easy to figure out. It's the same reason why people go to artschool rather than just studying all day long at home; they get to interact with humans in regards to their skill and ambition. This is also the reason so many are dissapointed when they are brushed off with a simple "work on the basics" type post; it tells them nothing new (novelty is something of the main attraction to keeping up human interaction.) The comment may be spot on and quite right, but it simply often fails to communicate with the noveau artist.

Some people are almost helpless in terms of self-study. So to tell them to go through a book (no matter how good it may be), wont be tempting to them. Not in and by itself anyway.

A much better way to go about it (if the one critiquing actually gives a damn about the person he/she's communicating this to), would be to inform them that they DO indeed need to work on the basics, but in addition to that, suggest that they make their own sketchbook thread, update it regularly, visits other sketchbooks, and offer to help them get through the book or suggest that they find someone to help them through the book, or potentially join one of the many drawing groups present on the board.

They are here to interact. Sure, the main ambition is to become a better artist, but to ignore that whole interaction part of it, well it seems kind of pointless if this forum is a place where one is supposed to improve and hone ones skills through... well, interaction... If you don't want to interact with the artist, don't reply to him/her.

[Brandon Pilcher]

Brandon Pilcher - Rage issues much? I have been reading, and you have been complaining about critiques. Again, if you don't like it then ignore it. I think you need to calm down and think about your path as an artist. At this point you're spending all your time arguing rather than trying to better yourself. Good luck.

Yes, I am very angry right now. I apologize for cussing you out earlier.

I think I need to take a break from this forum.

[Lhune]

Farvus: Like I said, you're taking this self-teaching so far that we may as well stop going to secondary school, college and university. After all if someone really wants to learn something, all of the information is right there, they just need to try harder to look for it. Teachers have their purpose, and because art, particularly here in the Netherlands, is something there are barely any teachers for, the internet is the next best thing. I've recently tried to find a tutorial on this site and I couldn't actually find it, when I already knew what I was looking for in the first place. Imagine if I didn't even know what I had to look for. I'd be completely and utterly lost. So I would likely resort to the critique section and ask for help. I wouldn't demand help. Ask. Anyone who would then be willing to help out would be highly appreciated. A comment such as "learn the basics", would then be useless. Appreciated, sure, but useless, and it would be a waste of time of both me and them. Do you see what I'm getting at?

[sone_one]

What I noticed though, is that one book may say something completely different than another. How was I supposed to know which one was right? How was I supposed to know what was the best course to take?

yep thats why you need to build your own foundation. what i (or anyone else for that matter) says, is not neccessarily the right thing for you.

basically the only thing i expect, if youre claiming to be an artist, is that youre able to make your own decissions. this comes with studying and knowledge, or ignorance... while the later is a bad advisor.

[Lhune]

basically the only thing i expect, if youre claiming to be an artist, is that youre able to make your own decissions.

So if a beginning artists who would like to be great at drawing manga picks up a "how-to-draw-manga" book from a random store, absolutely riddled with flaws, decides that this is a good way for them to start, and works their way up to becoming just another horrible wannabe-manga artist, they will have done the right thing?

People can't make their own decisions very well. Sometimes they need a little help.

[sone_one]

I've recently tried to find a tutorial on this site and I couldn't actually find it, when I already knew what I was looking for in the first place. Imagine if I didn't even know what I had to look for. I'd be completely and utterly lost. So I would likely resort to the critique section and ask for help. I wouldn't demand help. Ask. Anyone who would then be willing to help out would be highly appreciated. A comment such as "learn the basics", would then be useless. Appreciated, sure, but useless, and it would be a waste of time of both me and them. Do you see what I'm getting at?

yep but youre wrong there... the need to study the basics would (if pointed out) be evident in your your work. the ability to take it and do your own investigation, is entirely on your behalf.

if you aint aquired that knowledge then... what does this implicate? that someone else is responsible to point you in the right direction? rather not.

[Farvus]

I've recently tried to find a tutorial on this site and I couldn't actually find it, when I already knew what I was looking for in the first place. Imagine if I didn't even know what I had to look for. I'd be completely and utterly lost. So I would likely resort to the critique section and ask for help. I wouldn't demand help. Ask. Anyone who would then be willing to help out would be highly appreciated.

That's completely fine. I'm talking about people who haven't tried to find anything before they asked for help.

[dpaint]

A much better way to go about it (if the one critiquing actually gives a damn about the person he/she's communicating this to), would be to inform them that they DO indeed need to work on the basics, but in addition to that, suggest that they make their own sketchbook thread, update it regularly, visits other sketchbooks, and offer to help them get through the book or suggest that they find someone to help them through the book, or potentially join one of the many drawing groups present on the board.

They are here to interact. Sure, the main ambition is to become a better artist, but to ignore that whole interaction part of it, well it seems kind of pointless if this forum is a place where one is supposed to improve and hone ones skills through... well, interaction... If you don't want to interact with the artist, don't reply to him/her.

This is BS, art is lonely, if you want to be a chatty cathy and talk about art all the time then go ahead but the best artists make art they don't sit around talking abot how they will make art. Interaction and talking is for pussies.You don't need some one to hold your hand like your mommy did crossing the street. If you're too stupid to read a book and follow what it says you are too stupid to be a professional artist. Most people would benefit from just drawing and painting forget about getting opinions every ten seconds. I think for most people this forum and others is a hinderance because of all the input. It feels like you are accomplishing something when really its just masterbation. You've got people who can't draw or paint giving advice to other people who can't draw or paint.

[sone_one]

This is BS, art is lonely, if you want to be a chatty cathy and talk about art all the time then go ahead but the best artists make art they don't sit around talking abot how they will make art. Interaction and talking is for pussies.You don't need some one to hold your hand like your mommy did crossing the street. If you're too stupid to read a book and follow what it says you are too stupid to be a professional artist. Most people would benefit from just drawing and painting forget about getting opinions every ten seconds. I think for most people this forum and others is a hinderance because of all the input. It feels like you are accomplishing something when really its just masterbation. You've got people who can't draw or paint giving advice to other people who can't draw or paint.

!!!!!

[Lhune]

yep but youre wrong there... the need to study the basics would (if pointed out) be evident in your your work. the ability to take it and do your own investigation, is entirely on your behalf.

if you aint aquired that knowledge then... what does this implicate? that someone else is responsible to point you in the right direction? rather not.

Responsible is not the right word. Sometimes, be it in art, school, a relationship, or just life, you will need someone else to open your eyes and lead you in the right direction. You may simply get that help, or you may have to ask for it, but that doesn't take away the fact that you do need it. A very, very long time ago someone told me to stop copying a certain artist and work on my own development. She was a completely random person. I didn't ask for her to tell me that, but I am still forever grateful that she did, because I have no idea where I would have been if she hadn't. She did it out of her own movement and practically saved me artistically, or at least saved me many years of trouble. Isn't that why you're trying to help someone?

And that's where another thing is important, which is communication. If she'd gone and called me a bloody idiot for copying this person, and told me I should go die if I didn't stop, I would likely not have listened to her (and probably have been rather scared). No, she was simply kind. Firm, and honest, but kind at least. She took the time to help me, and that time has been worth while by tenfold. If you're going to take the time to help someone, it is really for your own sake that you make it somewhat useful for the other, or you will really only have wasted your time and it's not always just the artist who is to blame. You decide to dedicate your time to helping that person, then at least make it worth something. I'm not trying to justify or speak up for arrogant little brats telling you you should be a little more helpful when you already were (trust me, I know them and I've wanted to punch them in the face too), but people don't generally learn the most when they feel they're being shouted at.

[Lhune]

This is BS, art is lonely, if you want to be a chatty cathy and talk about art all the time then go ahead but the best artists make art they don't sit around talking abot how they will make art. Interaction and talking is for pussies.You don't need some one to hold your hand like your mommy did crossing the street. If you're too stupid to read a book and follow what it says you are too stupid to be a professional artist. Most people would benefit from just drawing and painting forget about getting opinions every ten seconds. I think for most people this forum and others is a hinderance because of all the input. It feels like you are accomplishing something when really its just masterbation. You've got people who can't draw or paint giving advice to other people who can't draw or paint.

Right, let's just get rid of the Critique section altogether then?

Interaction and talking is for pussies? Communication makes up for roughly 30% of all of my classes. If you can't work in a team, if you can't communicate, if you can't talk about art, you won't make it in the industry I'm aiming for, and that's a big one. Art isn't that oldschool anymore. I also seriously doubt that every artist who has posted in the critique section goes there for every single piece they do. I think most of us actually work a lot outside of that section, outside of this website or the internet even. And yes, you've got people who can't draw or paint giving advise to other people who can't draw or paint, because they're just trying to be helpful. I wouldn't punish them for that, but merely suggest to anyone who receives critique to check out the work of the artist writing the critique, so they know what kind of knowledge the critique is actually based upon.

Also, it's masturbation. And it's actually good for your health. So it's not all bad.

[dpaint]

Right, let's just get rid of the Critique section altogether then?

Interaction and talking is for pussies? Communication makes up for roughly 30% of all of my classes. If you can't work in a team, if you can't communicate, if you can't talk about art, you won't make it in the industry I'm aiming for, and that's a big one. Art isn't that oldschool anymore. I also seriously doubt that every artist who has posted in the critique section goes there for every single piece they do. I think most of us actually work a lot outside of that section, outside of this website or the internet even. And yes, you've got people who can't draw or paint giving advise to other people who can't draw or paint, because they're just trying to be helpful. I wouldn't punish them for that, but merely suggest to anyone who receives critique to check out the work of the artist writing the critique, so they know what kind of knowledge the critique is actually based upon.

Also, it's masturbation. And it's actually good for your health. So it's not all bad.

Working is not school, so excuse me if I don't think your opinion about something you don't do for a living and I do, matters. I just finished a project for Disney and before that Nickalodeon so don't tell me what you think is important. This is in between me painting for eight galleries and two one man shows.
I can communicate my ideas to anyone; but when people are learning, they are better off spending most of their time drawing and painting, not talking. I know it seems counter intuitive to people who need to be told their bowel movement was great before they can wipe, but people don't need that much connectivity and it actuially is slowing down their progress. Do you really think that helps you in life?

[JeffX99]

Alright, but how is a beginner supposed to read exactly that into the simple line "learn the basics"? What you just said would be a hundred times more useful when it takes what, roughly 30 seconds longer to type? That's the point I've been trying to make.

Because at some point Lhune, that newbie needs to make the damn effort to figure something out for themselves, personally I expect someone to already be aware of the basics anyway. Take a class. Read a friggin book. Go to the library or just read it in the bookstore. That is the filter. I am well aware that to a newbie it seems daunting and overwhelming and that they may not know what I say when I recommend "Learn the basics". But if they are so useless and lazy that they can't go, "Huh, I wonder what he means? Maybe I should find out" then they're not worth helping any further.

Most newbies do not have the experience or vocabulary of principles to handle in-depth critique anyway, so it doesn't do a bit of good. Nine times out of ten they need to work on basics.

[Lhune]

Working is not school, so excuse me if I don't think your opinion about something you don't do for a living and I do, matters. I just finished a project for Disney and before that Nickalodeon so don't tell me what you think is important. This is in between me painting for eight galleries and two one man shows.
I can communicate my ideas to anyone; but when people are learning, they are better off spending most of their time drawing and painting, not talking. I know it seems counter intuitive to people who need to be told their bowel movement was great before they can wipe, but people don't need that much connectivity and it actuially is slowing down their progress. Do you really think that helps you in life?

I see the point you're trying to make but, like everyone on your side, you're taking it to a complete extreme. Yes you learn to draw by actually doing it, I never claimed otherwise, anywhere. You seem to be under the impression that I'm suggesting that we need to spend half the time talking and half the time drawing or whatever? No, what I'm trying to say is that (good) communication is actually rather important and that many good things (artistically) may lead from interaction between various artists. Just because it's not the way you learned things "back in your day" doesn't mean it's bullshit.

Also, don't talk down to me like that. It's not my fault that I was born 20 years later than you, but I do actually have a good working pair of brains.

[sone_one]

I see the point you're trying to make but, like everyone on your side, you're taking it to a complete extreme. Yes you learn to draw by actually doing it, I never claimed otherwise, anywhere. You seem to be under the impression that I'm suggesting that we need to spend half the time talking and half the time drawing or whatever? No, what I'm trying to say is that (good) communication is actually rather important and that many good things (artistically) may lead from interaction between various artists. Just because it's not the way you learned things "back in your day" doesn't mean it's bullshit.

Also, don't talk down to me like that. It's not my fault that I was born 20 years later than you, but I do actually have a good working pair of brains.

i personally do respect you alot. and yeah ofc im taking it to an extreme, because mediocre statements dont matter at all . at least it gathered some attention.

what i was trying to get at, is that no matter what input you get and how it is worded, you need to have a certain attitude to take it. if someone says "back to the basics"... that might be tough. granted. yet if you refuse to consider it, its your loss. im saying "your" to make a point, while i know this aint applying to you at all.

either you want to learn or you dont.... waiting for knowledge to be poured onto you is no option. i know you know that.


[edit] it just isnt an option to ask others (whove been there yet) to cut everything into tiny pieces so it suits your digestion. no hard work = no artist. yet thats the impression i get quite often around here.

[dpaint]

I see the point you're trying to make but, like everyone on your side, you're taking it to a complete extreme. Yes you learn to draw by actually doing it, I never claimed otherwise, anywhere. You seem to be under the impression that I'm suggesting that we need to spend half the time talking and half the time drawing or whatever? No, what I'm trying to say is that (good) communication is actually rather important and that many good things (artistically) may lead from interaction between various artists. Just because it's not the way you learned things "back in your day" doesn't mean it's bullshit.

Also, don't talk down to me like that. It's not my fault that I was born 20 years later than you, but I do actually have a good working pair of brains.

You said thirty percent thats closer to fifty than it is to zero. And don't talk to me like I'm not a currently working professional. Theory is just that, and yours are meaningless until you actually work as a pro.

You act like I'm sitting in a rocking chair with my teeth in a glass talking about the good old days. I'm not, I bet I produce more work that I get paid for than 90 percent of the people on this site. I am working constantly, right now. And its not talking down to someone who thinks they know something but isn't actually doing it.

Tech and networking only helps you if your good at what you do. Otherwise you will be just a wannabe with a lot of friends that talks a good game but never could make it to the pro's.

[Jetpack]

Always better to be "slow and stupid" like a tortoise by learning and picking things up meticulously, instead of "fast and easy" like the hare by bounding to the very end with little to show for it.