topless women, boob as sexual object vs hair? your view?

[stragan]

hi guys. i have a cool question that might be a bit controversial but as male artists (im assuming most of you guys are guys) you guys might have a good perspective on this. ladies feel free to add in the discussion!!!

question 1: women being allowed to go topless whenever men can - your view??

what do you think about women going topless as often as men?
like, i see men jogging around shirtless
or after a huge game, the guys take their shirts off
they also take their shirts off during very hot days
or during these times:


if video doesnt work: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r9sR6v8_eLo

but women? they hardly show their boobs EVER. why? i thought i was gonna see some boobs in the video

also i've been thinking if covering boobs are fundamentally really that necessary when i read this: http://www.muslimah2muslimah.com/201...ear-hijab.html

the guy is like "women have to cover their hair because hair is a sexual object and they will get raped or it will cause men to stop what they're doing and masturbate"
hell, some even think that there's scientifically some "hair rays" that cause men to act wild.

that's like the exact same argument that people told me when i asked "why can't girls show their boobies"
almost everyone was like
"because it will attract attention" - well so do pretty faces
"the woman will get raped" - women get raped anyway, topless or scantily clad or amish, no offense ladies (meaning, it's the RAPIST'S FAULT, not the woman's dress)
"men will begin masturbating" - maybe we won't, just like we dont masturbate to hair
"it's immoral" - maybe non-hair covering is immoral
"it will cause competition among women" - there's already a lot of competition among women
or "men are biologically wired to stare at breasts" - yea, but i am also wired to stare at a girl's face, hair, arms, legs, etc.. so does that mean girls should hide their faces, hair, arms, legs? hell i love EVERYTHING about girl's body.

so comes my next question.
question 2: why is boob such a sexualized object compared to hair
or other body parts
in america, most women don't cover their hair but i don't see men masturbating in the streets lol....
and i never heard of a woman's hair causing rape.
also never did i hear of "hair porn" where i can watch it and go YEAH!! LOOK AT THAT WOMAN'S BROWN HAIR fap fap fap
yet a lot of fundie muslims say that hair is inappropriate to display in public. even fundie muslim men must wear that hat things.
so can't the same argument be made for boobs? maybe if women didn't cover their boobs so much, boobs wouldn't be any more 'titillating' than manchest or a bare arm. maybe in the future, women will be topless during hot days and people wouldn't bat a lash. Hell, that sort of thing already exists in other cultures where women walk around naked most of the time.


speaking of social stuff, i personally want to wear a scottish kilt with no underwear because my balls are getting sweaty but then i'd be called gay

your opinion?

[Ian Barker]

I have high hopes for this thread.

[stragan]

let the shit-throwing begin!!
no really i think it's going to be a fun thread (but not drama)

[crossmirage]

Boobs aren't sexual (same goes with anything that's not genitals). They're sexualized. After all they aren't much different from man boobs, they just have the added function of being able to produce milk for a child.

Edit: Tangentially related to topic.

[stragan]

Boobs aren't sexual (same goes with anything that's not genitals). They're sexualized. After all they aren't much different from man boobs, they just have the added function of being able to produce milk for a child.

fuck fuck fuck, thanks for correcting me on that, i mean SEXUALIZED
even though i am sure most people think the boobs are by nature "sexual"

and hey, men can make milk too ok we're not as nonfunctional as you think... we just prefer not to...

[Ilaekae]

What research have you done to decide that "most" of us are "guys"? Though it was nice you made at least a passing reference at any "ladies" who might be around. We actually do have a couple of "ladies," but most of the females you'll run into here are rabid hard-driven bitches concerned with learning and earning a living (Is that allowed in your little corner of the world?) who will probably kick you square in the nuts when they find this thread.

OK, I've read your post twice now, and forgive me but I've noticed you appear to have a rather demeaning attitude toward the female sex. I also noticed you have a rather lazy sense of logic that, with a little thought, could have been put to better use on this post. And, for your sake, Don't ever go to Scotland...or march in a Gay pride parade.

As for a comment on your question. Women can not live their lives as they wish because the patriarchal fuckin' countries they live in seem to have a male population comprised of over-hormoned brainless assholes who are terrified the female species is out to make fools out of them. This is the result of 2,000+ years of puritanical repressive religious teaching that seems intent on make all things female either a toy or a cheap piece of ass or property.

If it's something you personally want to change, then start with yourself, because your speech pattern and the manner you presented your question give me the impression that I'm four or five times your age.

Fight on, Dude...

[Vari]

Different cultures, different morals. In some places of the world women are covered from head to toe. In some other places you will have a hard time explaining what a bra is and why they should use it. It's just the way it is. Not everything related to human behavior or human morals is logical. And don't think that every man takes off their shirt so easily. Yes, they do after a game of football or something, but there they are in the company of other men. Besides they are usually fit, so they have something to show. Non-athletic guys can be even more concerned with covering their chest than women. I wouldn't walk around the street, showing my tiny nipples.

Also, things like the penis, or the breast are covered for protection, you know. Walking around naked is not the smartest thing to do. You can catch cold, or sun burns, or... just about anything. These are delicate zones that need protection. Even tribal cultures cover their family jewels even if they never heard of Christianity or Islam. Animals have their boobs (what was the word?) well protected under them. In order to reach them you must either kill the animal or befriend it. But in the case of humans, we are walking on two legs so everything is exposed.

And your logic is a bit off. You may be surprised, but there are more porn genres than metal genres, so "hair porn" as you put it sounds quite plausible to me.

[JFierce]

Ilaekae, I don't know if your a man or woman. All I see is a third gender smiling kitten.

[tobbA]

I think people should be allowed to dress however they want. Why women would want to go topless as often as men I don't know though.

Boobs aren't sexual (same goes with anything that's not genitals). They're sexualized. After all they aren't much different from man boobs, they just have the added function of being able to produce milk for a child.

I don't believe that. I think no matter what a guy will like looking at a girls boobs. I just think they're more sexualized in todays society simply because they're covered up. If you'd see boobs every day you'd stop thinking too much about it. I do believe that very exposing clothing is more 'charged' than someone who's completely nude though. Since it sort of sparks the imagination and people/men go "there's something there but I just barely can't see it, darn..."

Even tribal cultures cover their family jewels even if they never heard of Christianity or Islam.

Not really...

It seems to me that the only places where nudity is seen as something bad is countries where the climate requires a lot of clothes. Which makes sense, because if you spend the greater part of the year not seeing a naked person of the opposite sex, the part of the year where people actually can walk around like that it'll seem much more intimidating.

[Vari]

Ilaekae, I don't know if your a man or woman. All I see is a third gender smiling kitten.

He is one hairy old guy... at least that's what he claimed in another thread if I remember correctly. I don't know what the topic of the other thread was, but the disturbing image is still in my head

[crossmirage]

>I think people should be allowed to dress however they want

>I don't believe that [breasts are not sexual]

>I think no matter what a guy will like looking at a girls boobs...it sort of sparks the imagination

Regardless of whether or not women are allowed to go topless, there's no way to enjoy that kind of freedom when one feels x pairs of eyes fixated on them. Possibly followed by wolf whistles, cat calls, groping and "lol boobies". If we want to get rid of the mindset that boobs are sexual objects, then people should not raise their kids to think of them as such. Society shouldn't keep drilling it into our heads.

I personally prefer to be wrapped like a rare fiddle. Though as far as reasons for being topless go, ask yourself why guys enjoy being topless, and you'll have your answer.


Also, boobies. (why does this exist oh god)

[Alex Eh]

crossmirage: I want that.

[tobbA]

Regardless of whether or not women are allowed to go topless, there's no way to enjoy that kind of freedom when one feels x pairs of eyes fixated on them. Possibly followed by wolf whistles, cat calls, groping and "lol boobies". If we want to get rid of the mindset that boobs are sexual objects, then people should not raise their kids to think of them as such. Society shouldn't keep drilling it into our heads.

I agree, to an extent. But I don't think 'desexualizing' boobies is gonna work. It's not 'drilled' into anybodys head. At a certain age guys suddenly realize boobs are super cool. Obviously society exploits that. As with anything else that makes things sell. But trying to make guys not like looking at boobs is like trying to make people not enjoy eating ice cream.

Though as far as reasons for being topless go, ask yourself why guys enjoy being topless, and you'll have your answer.

And to clarify. What I meant was, why would a woman chose to go topless when there's such a stigma around it. Of course I can understand why it would be enjoyable. On the other hand here in Europe at least topless women on the beach isn't that rare.

[Sunseaker]

I for one, wish less guys would go topless. Now summers here I see enough jiggly boobies without women joining in too.

[Robert.B]

The day polarities shift and we see a more focused sexual objectification of men vs women we then wont need to have these conversations.



FYI I shaved all my hair off years ago because I kept winding up as the target of many unwanted sexual advances....

[Black Spot]

I'm all for going topless not sure you'll appreciate it as much as the example below. Actually countries where women are bare breasted and don't wear bras have a lower incidence of breast cancer.

[Elwell]

What research have you done to decide that "most" of us are "guys"? Though it was nice you made at least a passing reference at any "ladies" who might be around. We actually do have a couple of "ladies," but most of the females you'll run into here are rabid hard-driven bitches concerned with learning and earning a living (Is that allowed in your little corner of the world?) who will probably kick you square in the nuts when they find this thread.

OK, I've read your post twice now, and forgive me but I've noticed you appear to have a rather demeaning attitude toward the female sex. I also noticed you have a rather lazy sense of logic that, with a little thought, could have been put to better use on this post. And, for your sake, Don't ever go to Scotland...or march in a Gay pride parade.

As for a comment on your question. Women can not live their lives as they wish because the patriarchal fuckin' countries they live in seem to have a male population comprised of over-hormoned brainless assholes who are terrified the female species is out to make fools out of them. This is the result of 2,000+ years of puritanical repressive religious teaching that seems intent on make all things female either a toy or a cheap piece of ass or property.

If it's something you personally want to change, then start with yourself, because your speech pattern and the manner you presented your question give me the impression that I'm four or five times your age.

Fight on, Dude...

[stragan]

What research have you done to decide that "most" of us are "guys"?
Fight on, Dude...

i counted from memory and made an assumption. most seem to say they're guys or refer to themselves as "man", or call eachother 'he' (for example, i heard people refer you as 'he' but i think you're just a cat behind a screen), so yea

and by speaking of "women get raped anyway", if that's what offended you most cat, i was stating that it's NOT what the woman wears or how she presents herself that causes her to get raped. IT'S THE GUY. fully dressed, scantily clad, or naked, a raper is gonna rape everybody he can and it's not "well she should've done ____ to avoid his attention". a newsreporter lady got raped in the middle east and she didn't wear a hijab, but i mean come on. i am sure there were no "hair rays" that shined out of her hair that caused men to act crazy. some fundie muslims actually claim that, i heard.

I don't believe that. I think no matter what a guy will like looking at a girls boobs. I just think they're more sexualized in todays society simply because they're covered up. If you'd see boobs every day you'd stop thinking too much about it. I do believe that very exposing clothing is more 'charged' than someone who's completely nude though. Since it sort of sparks the imagination and people/men go "there's something there but I just barely can't see it, darn..."

Not really...

It seems to me that the only places where nudity is seen as something bad is countries where the climate requires a lot of clothes. Which makes sense, because if you spend the greater part of the year not seeing a naked person of the opposite sex, the part of the year where people actually can walk around like that it'll seem much more intimidating.

agreed!!! its just sexualized because it's covered up, just as hair is sexualized in arab country because it's covered up. but i don't get it. why boobs? why not arm, hair, everything else? ok i get the argument that "boobs is something that guys dont have so its more sexual than hair" but guys have muscles that girls don't have and i know that alot of girls go apeshit horny over muscles. so, why don't guys hide their muscles? it's bullshit, i swear to god it has something to do with patriarchy

[tobbA]

I don't think it's all bullshit. Men in general are much more affected by visual stimuli. I guess I can only talk from a guys perspective... But that's probably the reason why not so many girls look at porn for example.

Breasts are probably sexual since they play a large role in reproduction, if only indirectly. I think breasts are seen as a point of attraction in many tribal societies as well. I think the whole hair thing is just taking everything a bit too far. If you cover up a whole girl obviously everything that you don't normally see will seem arousing. Even hair. If there even is some truth to that statement.

[Ilaekae]

A normal world is a world that balances mortality with enjoyment. It feels good to eat, to sit in the sun or swim in nice cool water, to playfully grope someone nice in the grass who likes groping you, and just sitting back and looking at all that's beautiful, including puppies, kittens, boobies, abs, hair blowing in the wind, children playing, etc. The circumstances and climate you live in affect what you can see or do at any one time, obviously, or the human species would have died off a long time ago. A form of inbuilt common sense rules, as it should.

This not the case anymore, though. Driven by the power to screw people over just because they can, intolerance, and the perversion of "interpret-as-wish-for-your-own-perverted-benefit" religious/political beliefs, the world has somehow become a circus where the ringmasters seem to think they can reject natural/common law and replace it with any sort of "You AIN'T gonna believe this shit, Jack!" approach they feel like imposing on their serf followers.

At least once a month, some freak politician in the US tries to submit a bill to criminalize breast feeding in some fashion. A US judge has released a rapist because his 5-year-old victim "was TOO cute and so actually instigated the rape." Keep going in this direction, and you arrive at the insane tribal laws that allow stoning and burning to death for women and young girls who dared to run to the store for a loaf of bread WITHOUT a male "guardian," who smiled and wiggled their fingers shyly at a cute guy while wearing 200 yards of black cocoon cloth, or who were raped by some bastard out to prove he's a "REAL" man to his friends. The males (and females who support their actions) in all the above are ALL seriously sick and twisted fuckin' perverts.

All of the laws that control society should guarantee the maximum personal freedom that common sense allows. I am not threatened by a mother's breast in a quiet city park. I am not threatened or sexually aroused to violent action because a cute 13-year-old wants to show off her "new bouncy parts" a bit and get a boy to pay attention to her. I am not threatened by a handsome women (or man, for that matter) 1/3 my age being my boss and giving me orders at my new job. Anyone who is has a problem, and if that "problem" dictates the laws that I live under which force me to accept a distorted vision of community, then the persons who wrote the law, voted for the law, and support the law are all, again, seriously sick and twisted fuckin' perverts.

I have the right to see what is beautiful, cute, interesting, and makes me happy. I don't have the right to make everyone else agree with my choices. Neither do I have the right to act in a violent, threatening, or harmful way because of my choices. If Fred and his boyfriend kiss, I'm happy for them. If little kids want to skinny dip in the park fountains, I'm happy for them. If a group of young women spend their day off strutting their shit in unbelievable costuming designed to attract attention and to feel good, I smile at them because I'm happy for them.

Refusing to see the world with its best face on is just so counter to reality/nature that I can't believe that anyone who has to just get a big stick and fuck it up just because they can has no hope of ever becoming a true human being with a brain in their head.

[Izi]

The fact I can't go topless in public like men really angers me. I would like to be able to do that if I want. Actually think I would probably adopt dresses with the one boob out and one tucked under some sort of grecian fabric as a tribute to the semi-mythical amazon.

In goth clubs it is popular to use the electrical tape "X" over the nipple which is an ok aesthetic.

The Book of the Law says:

"52. There is a veil: that veil is black. It is the veil of the modest woman; it is the veil of sorrow, & the pall of death: this is none of me. Tear down that lying spectre of the centuries: veil not your vices in virtuous words: these vices are my service; ye do well, & I will reward you here and hereafter."

Most ladies react to a six pack in the same way as a guy does to nice breasts.

um none of my girlfriend do so your "most ladies" sounds like the voice of inexperience....

the exact thoughts that go through my mind when I see a six pack "great im sure he's a lot of fun we can stare in the mirror at ourselves together and plan our caloric intake and gym dates..."

Just because you have a six pack doesn't mean you're not a scrub!

[Darkmoon]

just thinking, and i could be wrong...

breast are sexualized due to their connection with childbirth, childbearing ect. such like hips (hour glass figure argument, leads to the aura or fertility)
and since society had put a taboo on anything related to sex, breats are naturally in that catagory...

that being said, I breastfed for 3 years, openly in public. so im not ashamed of my breasts or showing them. im not some porn star with perfect perky titties or anything either...

Also, In ontario, its legal to go topless in parks, beaches... ect... just not in stores or the like. when the law was passed a few years ago they had to modify the all out allowence of topless women due to the hookers jumpin right on that and were walking around topless for a week in downtown Ottawa.

Its all societal upbringing, but things they are changing. think of shorts... i can see the crack of some 13 year old girls ass... meh.

I personally prefer a little mystery, and I find a little cleavage and a little leg WAY sexier than all out nudity.
Although I do love to see a topless man, but chances are its because im studying the mucles structure that i cant seem to nail...

anyways theres a Girls point of view for you.

[Black Spot]

In the UK women can go around naked, but when a man does it it's considered obscene.

Ilaekae, I love you man. People are to be enjoyed for what they are and not a porn film in the making. I'm more horrified that kids are expected to cover up (just in case a pedo is round the corner) when their natural state is naked and covered in mud.

Darkmoon, I breastfed my 3 with pride as that's what boobs are for. Actually took my eldest to first cricket match at 2 week old. Do you know how difficult it is doing the scoring and feeding the baby at the same time? Not that hard - changing his nappy whilst acknowledging the umpire was much more complicated.

[stragan]

Regardless of whether or not women are allowed to go topless, there's no way to enjoy that kind of freedom when one feels x pairs of eyes fixated on them. Possibly followed by wolf whistles, cat calls, groping and "lol boobies". If we want to get rid of the mindset that boobs are sexual objects, then people should not raise their kids to think of them as such. Society shouldn't keep drilling it into our heads.

I personally prefer to be wrapped like a rare fiddle. Though as far as reasons for being topless go, ask yourself why guys enjoy being topless, and you'll have your answer.

Also, boobies. (why does this exist oh god)

yea thats what i think. when i was young i was like "why cant sally swim with us she has her shorts" because the teacher didn't let her swim without her one-suit on.

I agree, to an extent. But I don't think 'desexualizing' boobies is gonna work. It's not 'drilled' into anybodys head. At a certain age guys suddenly realize boobs are super cool. Obviously society exploits that. As with anything else that makes things sell. But trying to make guys not like looking at boobs is like trying to make people not enjoy eating ice cream.

And to clarify. What I meant was, why would a woman chose to go topless when there's such a stigma around it. Of course I can understand why it would be enjoyable. On the other hand here in Europe at least topless women on the beach isn't that rare.

straight guys are always gonna like boobs. so what? i get turned on my pretty faces and soft skin but i dont see people hiding their faces and skin. shrug.
and my question is, why is the stigma there? is it because it's biologically necessary to keep the society going (like, showing boobs will cause men to go apeshit) or is it just a social norm thing and "how things always were"?

Wow, your test group for this question seem to think that men are drooling sex monsters.

Oh come on. If there's a fetish for cannibalism and teddy bears, why do you assume there isn't one for hair? Its more common than you think - Trichophilia

Think about it, tons of porn sells on the basis of whether the ladies are blonde or not, for example.

You seem to think women are pure and innocent. There are plenty of women who'd salivate at the sight of rugged arms/chest.

Most ladies react to a six pack in the same way as a guy does to nice breasts.

yes there is blonde fetish but it's not as sexualized as breasts to the point women have to hide it
and hey don't blame me for saying that boobs are CONSIDERED more tittilating, i am not the one who made the social rules.
but speaking of most girls reacting to muscles as guys do for boobs... um the girls don't. a girl likes muscles but she doesn't go "he's showing his six packs he must be a , he MUST want some, imma rape him he's totally asking for it brb"

[stragan]

I'm all for going topless not sure you'll appreciate it as much as the example below. Actually countries where women are bare breasted and don't wear bras have a lower incidence of breast cancer.

i see nothing wrong with it. it's no different than seeing the old guys jogging down the streets with their flabby manboobs. shrug

[stragan]

At least once a month, some freak politician in the US tries to submit a bill to criminalize breast feeding in some fashion. A US judge has released a rapist because his 5-year-old victim "was TOO cute and so actually instigated the rape." Keep going in this direction, and you arrive at the insane tribal laws that allow stoning and burning to death for women and young girls who dared to run to the store for a loaf of bread WITHOUT a male "guardian," who smiled and wiggled their fingers shyly at a cute guy while wearing 200 yards of black cocoon cloth, or who were raped by some bastard out to prove he's a "REAL" man to his friends. The males (and females who support their actions) in all the above are ALL seriously sick and twisted fuckin' perverts.

yea whenever i hear of politicians saying we should put a legal curfew on women, i think "well what were rapists doing in the middle of the night?" because i know that a lot of single moms need to work and they often work until late in the night just to support their kids.
and some say that women should stay at home. funny shit, most female homicide victims were killed in a domestic setting or by someone they knew.

[stragan]

In the UK women can go around naked, but when a man does it it's considered obscene.

Ilaekae, I love you man. People are to be enjoyed for what they are and not a porn film in the making. I'm more horrified that kids are expected to cover up (just in case a pedo is round the corner) when their natural state is naked and covered in mud.

Darkmoon, I breastfed my 3 with pride as that's what boobs are for. Actually took my eldest to first cricket match at 2 week old. Do you know how difficult it is doing the scoring and feeding the baby at the same time? Not that hard - changing his nappy whilst acknowledging the umpire was much more complicated.

that is weird that is sexism black spot. if a girl gets sweaty and she can get naked, i would like to pull down my pants when my balls get sweaty ugh

and yea, speaking of pedos.. why punish the kids for the pedo's sick obsession? get the pedos instead. what's next? locking kids in cages so pedos don't get them? what if their own legal guardians are the pedos? ugh

and yea, the breastfeeding in public should be totally fine. but where i am from (im from a hicktown btw, people think women are SUPPOSED to be raped because that's part of nature or something), people think any boob exposure is = SIGN OF THE DEVIL

[stragan]

oh also ilaekaeae catman i thought the vast majority were guys here because there's a girl's section. why is there a girl's section if it's vast majority male here?

[Black Spot]

We have our own spot so we can go topless and have naked pillow fights without you guys staring.

On the hair bit (maybe not what you really wanted), you might want to read the thread I started on Pubes a while back.

I like a nicely shaped buttocks in a man and one that moves well is even better.

[vineris]

I like a nicely shaped buttocks in a man and one that moves well is even better.

See, this is why I cycle.