character pilot developing

[eptigo]

what i wanted to do was design a character that was kinda like a sci-fi mecha pilot or something.

i wanted to try working with a style that i was not acccustomked to working with, thought i might learn some things, and was hoping i could develop it into a type of portfolio piece. i was hoping to demonstrate flexibility somehow

right now ive got this and about 100 images worth of reference material
after i figure out what head piece im going with and revising the body, i was going to sort through my reference material and decide upon a costume

had trouble figuring out what type of hair style i should try using

suggestions as usual are appreciated

[bullitbikini]

well i have to say that the face is very off putting. Then again i always found Bratz dolls creepy and disturbing. as it stands none of the choices add anything but hair to the character, worse still is that none of the hairstyles have anything to do with mechs or pilots. In character design, even the hair should have some basic idea of the character. The whole thing should work together, not like a "oh i liked this outfit, these boots, and this hairstyle... Oh yeah she pilots giant robots." Before even desciding on a hairstyle, decide what the character does, what kind of world she comes from, what race is she, is she even human, if she does X does her hair need to be cut for it, is she military and would she have a regulation haircut, what can i do with her to make her unique how are her ponytails different from everyone elses?

[arenhaus]

You should rather go with practicing structural drawing more, until you can sketch solid forms in space that work, rather than assemble unconnected stereotypical lips and eyes and hope to get a face.

Everything must work as a 3-D structure. You can fudge it a lot with 2-D animation, relying on tricks and "sweet angles" and the like; but without a solid grounding in 3-D volume you won't get a character like this animatable. So focus on that first.

[Nezumi Works]

The eyes don't bug me so much, although it's not good to have them tangent with the side of the face. The problem I've got is that her nose doesn't line up with them and...are those wax lips? Wow, she's got a heck of a sense of humour.

That said, I notice a bit of an extreme gender imbalance there. You've got a guy who's all business, and then the girl gets a range of hairstyles. I know which one of the two I'd take more seriously as a pilot!

[Psychotime]

Take what I'm saying with a bag of salt, but everything here looks and feels fake to me.

i wanted to try working with a style that i was not acccustomked to working with, thought i might learn some things, and was hoping i could develop it into a type of
portfolio piece. i was hoping to demonstrate flexibility somehow

Here's a question: do you actually LIKE the material you're trying to imitate? I don't think you do.

[Farah]

It depends. What sort of personality are you trying to convey?

On a different subject though, the lips are a bit off-setting to me. They remind me of Bratz dolls, and I am unsure if that's what you're going for here.

[eptigo]

i got to the facial expressions and any kind of drawing skills i ever possessed vanished as if they never were to begin with

hmmm ... i just realized you cant read this T_T

[bullitbikini]

Dont take this the wrong way, but the girls suit is far to close tot he plugsuits from Evangelion, and since you picked the bob hairstyle the girl is looking more like a caricature of Rei than an original creation. to many of the elements are just coming way too close. as for everything else, not that yo uhave to, but you really havent improved on anything anyone mentioned. You lost alot of character and originality in the guy, as well as some of the fun of his pose. the girl is still very boring and i dont get mech pilot from her at all.

[Mirana]

Agreed with bullitbikini. The shoulder pads, the rib cage ridge, the contrast color, the bob all scream Rei Ayanami rip. You are relying way too heavily on your "100 images worth of reference material" to conceptualize these characters.

Here's the thing: Unless you were working for an IP wherein someone else has established the design themes, you shouldn't just mix and mash stuff from other established IPs. You need to be creative! For that, you need to start with real world reference and think about the function of the design. Make a ton of thumbnails exploring different ideas and shapes. Not just different superficial hairstyles. The whole thing together. If this is for a portfolio, you need to show range in ideas, not just in style.

[eptigo]

hmmm ... i'm probably not cut out to be a designer

its like some of this stuff i try and think about, but then afterwards, its as if the things i attempted to think about and address were never taken into consideration
like the hair, im thinking if it's a mecha pilot and she's military, then the regulations would probably need to have it shorter so it doesn't interfer with her daily duties and activities and such. and the hair can't cover up the eyes cause being a pilot if your hair is covering your eyes that interfers with ur vision and messes u up as a pilot

the uniform outfit i was thinking since its military, and they're both pilots then theirs only so much room for variation and originality, they'd most likely be very similiar if not the same. the most variation/originality you could get their would be certain kinds of accessories like, perhaps an extra holster for a blaster, or ammo or rations or something like that

i kinda liked the jump suit outfits, though they were somewhat similiar to eva or even rei. wasn't even thinking about that, about them when i put this together but guess i can't deny the simularity either.

as for the guy i don't believe i understand how their assesment is being quantified: 'they had more originality and fun in their pose b4' what i had before was kinda like just a generic template thing
what i was going for was the guy character is suppose to be a war veteran a war hero with bucket loads of xp and survived all sorts of crazy battles, fought in dozens of campaigns, etc. so i thought that i might be able to reflect that on his facial features by giving it more creases, making it more ... gruff and worn and maybe a scar, stuff like that
i don't think i understand how stuff like character can be lost going from a blank slate-ish thing to that

well ... ill try to take into consideration everything that was mentioned here and try to revise it some more, do a bunch more sketches of them and stuff.
but at this present moment in time im not sure what to do how to address some if not all points indicated here. ill try to do something with this, just not sure what

man this is frustrating, feels like im not getting anywhere

---

wait, in terms of showing a range of ideas, should i be showing something like a variation of designs of the same character?

[bullitbikini]

hmmm ... i'm probably not cut out to be a designer

With that attitude, no you are not. Taking critic and understanding that it isnt a direct call out of you personally but instead a way of saying, "hey, this needs fixed" is an important part of being a concept artist.

its like some of this stuff i try and think about, but then afterwards, its as if the things i attempted to think about and address were never taken into consideration
like the hair, im thinking if it's a mecha pilot and she's military, then the regulations would probably need to have it shorter so it doesn't interfer with her daily duties and activities and such. and the hair can't cover up the eyes cause being a pilot if your hair is covering your eyes that interfers with ur vision and messes u up as a pilot

Then why did you giver her an Oh-so-cute bob cut with bangs? look at what girls in the military, specifically airforce, would have to do to the hair. As an airforce brat, what you have given her is not standard reg, nor is it sensible for her duties. Its also a duplicate of Rei's hairstyle, which is questionable.

the uniform outfit i was thinking since its military, and they're both pilots then theirs only so much room for variation and originality, they'd most likely be very similiar if not the same. the most variation/originality you could get their would be certain kinds of accessories like, perhaps an extra holster for a blaster, or ammo or rations or something like that

no one is saying you shouldnt be thinking along those lines. Is this part of the Evangelion universe? If so, if both these characters are eva pilots, then fine, plugsuits are great. as it stands you have ripped off a design, and your explanation has nothing to do with what you have drawn. Look up flightsuits, space suits, dive suits. figure out what kinds of things go with those types of uniforms and know what you are combining, why, and how you should be doing it. If you recognize taht what you have drawn has no versatility as a mech pilot uniform, then the next step shouldnt be to hard.

i kinda liked the jump suit outfits, though they were somewhat similiar to eva or even rei. wasn't even thinking about that, about them when i put this together but guess i can't deny the simularity either.

Not that it matters, but i dont believe that statement at all. Your references are, let me guess, a bunch of anime pictures of various mech related anime and games, including screenshots, promo art, and fanart? There is no way it didnt cross your mind. the "design" you have made is literally a carbon copy of someone elses very popular work. You obviously had to know that. This isnt a case of "oh my pose and composition are really close to that image that ive never seen before" this is "oh wow, my character looks like an exact duplicate of another". Subconsciously or on purpose, you copied the design, its even apparent where you erased some of the details of the plugsuit. I get it, Rei is one of the most beloved character designs in anime history, you wanted to achieve that and took the easy route. But you dont understand what about her design is so successful, and why. It takes a long time to figure those things out, a long time and a lot of research.

as for the guy i don't believe i understand how their assesment is being quantified: 'they had more originality and fun in their pose b4' what i had before was kinda like just a generic template thing
what i was going for was the guy character is suppose to be a war veteran a war hero with bucket loads of xp and survived all sorts of crazy battles, fought in dozens of campaigns, etc. so i thought that i might be able to reflect that on his facial features by giving it more creases, making it more ... gruff and worn and maybe a scar, stuff like that
i don't think i understand how stuff like character can be lost going from a blank slate-ish thing to that

You have all these details about the character, but nothing you have drawn shows any of that. You have a generic dude in a plug suit. Factually teh first pose for the guy had a stronger sillhouette and something more recognizable you removed all the parts taht could have screamed "this is the male protagonist" and instead made a cartoon guy standing statically. one of the single smost important things in character design is sillhouette. You can tell Who Chun li is just by seeing her shadow, same goes with MAster Chief, Kratos, Mario, and every other successful design in game history. The pose and shapes are just as important as the tiniest details. Again, you dont understand that because you havent tken the time to do the research. You say you added or wanted to add all these tiny details to his face, but you didnt, clearly. With that i have 2 questions, Why didnt you and why would you stop at his face? his armor and equipment should be part of him, part of his design, and just as full of originality as everything else. I said it before, a successful character design is built as a whole, not by combining tiny chunks.

well ... ill try to take into consideration everything that was mentioned here and try to revise it some more, do a bunch more sketches of them and stuff.
but at this present moment in time im not sure what to do how to address some if not all points indicated here. ill try to do something with this, just not sure what

man this is frustrating, feels like im not getting anywhere

---

wait, in terms of showing a range of ideas, should i be showing something like a variation of designs of the same character?

The simple answer is that if you want this to be a portfolio piece, you should want to do what it takes to make it one. ass pats will get you nowhere in this industry, so when people critic your work per your request you need to be prepared to either listen to what they have to say, or ignore it at your own risk. You have done the latter, which is why you are not getting anywhere. Yoda said "there is no try" so if you want the critic enough to post here, then you should either do what the critics say, or dont. There is a world of difference between someone who sucks but listens, and people who are mediocre and dont. The biggest being that those who suck will get better as long as they take it seriously. You have some skill, what you do with it is your choice.

And yes, you should be showing design iterations (sillhouettes) for each character

[Mirana]

Eptigo, have you spent much time looking at other people's threads in the Critique Center? You'll notice that the most successful ones typically start with one idea, then completely start over, or re-do a large part. Like this one or this one.

Part of the process of being an concept art designer is not getting attached to your first design, and having to change multiple things, multiple times, due to feedback from your team and art director. Critique Center runs like that. You want to be a designer and if we didn't care about you getting there, we would just ignore you.

From post one, when multiple people were telling you you needed to address facial features, you ignored them completely. That is why you are getting nowhere.

YES, you need to do multiple thumbnail designs, and possibly multiple sketches. And NOT just superficial detail changes on a "template" body, but widely varying ideas. Like these examples from The Skillful Huntsman. This is what you would do at a job. Using text or explanations for your design choices is generally a sign of a bad design, since in practice you would not be able to explain these things to a viewer. They need to be evident on their own.

If you are unsure about what to do to make this better, then you need to re-read the critiques you have been given. If they are confusing, ask for clarification.

[Nezumi Works]

One thing that's been impressed on me, over and over again, over the past two years has been "Never settle for your first idea". In fact, it's a good idea to do a number of approaches, and then remove the first one. You'll get far better results.

[techyfox]

man this is frustrating, feels like im not getting anywhere

I can understand why people are being quite harsh, trying to emulate the idea of you being in a real job situation where you need to, as a designer be presenting and working to a high and targetted standard.

While that's all very useful if you want to jump into a design boot camp and come out the other side a better artist. It's not much fun as you're finding out.

For me, this time before you get forced into deadlines is all about fun and finding your style. Yes you should absolutely copy other characters you see in different styles. I completely encourage it. You might just hit one style that is close to what will become your own. What feels natural to you. And yes you should absolutely try and draw from your imagination with no reference, draw with lots of reference and be really enjoying all of it. Even when it looks like crud at the end or when you really love what you've done. It's the process that pulls artists into careers later on.

Now back to your regularly scheduled military design school. Work that pencil private. hehe

[bullitbikini]

For me, this time before you get forced into deadlines is all about fun and finding your style. Yes you should absolutely copy other characters you see in different styles. I completely encourage it. You might just hit one style that is close to what will become your own. What feels natural to you. And yes you should absolutely try and draw from your imagination with no reference, draw with lots of reference and be really enjoying all of it. Even when it looks like crud at the end or when you really love what you've done. It's the process that pulls artists into careers later on.

Do not, I REPEAT DO NOT listen to this. There is something to be said for doing master copies. but "finding your own style by copying others" is a crock. Its ridiculous. You develop a style by studying source material and drawing from life. Every eye is different, so you will naturally find a way of representing what you see that is individual. drawing without reference is silly. I dont mean you have to have reference in front of you for EVERY picture, but you should have that reference built up in your mind. so you should be studying reference constantly. People watch at wal mart, sketch a construction site, do whatever yo ucan to build your own mental references. If you want to be professional you need to do all the work that it takes.

[techyfox]

Do not, I REPEAT DO NOT listen to this. There is something to be said for doing master copies. but "finding your own style by copying others" is a crock. Its ridiculous. You develop a style by studying source material and drawing from life. Every eye is different, so you will naturally find a way of representing what you see that is individual. drawing without reference is silly. I dont mean you have to have reference in front of you for EVERY picture, but you should have that reference built up in your mind. so you should be studying reference constantly. People watch at wal mart, sketch a construction site, do whatever yo ucan to build your own mental references. If you want to be professional you need to do all the work that it takes.

If you read all of my comment you can see I'm not suggesting someone just go and copy other peoples work and hope you become great as a result. What I was trying to say is that it has to be a fun process, enjoyable, creatively stimulating when you're starting out and copying work you love IS great fun and it is inspiring. I then went onto say you absolutely should be using reference to learn from and your imagination which is another way of saying the stock of knowledge you've built up about perspective, foreshortening, line thickness, anatomy and gesture. All that comes together much later. You can't beat someone round the head when theyre starting out demanding they work like professionals and churn out concept designs for clients.

So I stick with these statements. I've been sketching for 30 years and I started because it was fun and the real work of learning the ropes came later because I wanted to improve. I don't know when I found my style, I'm not trying to suggest you'll find it by copying but I do remember certain paintings were easier to copy. A saw that looser styles were more suited to my style. I might of discovered that in art school while life drawing, I dont actually remember now, its a long time ago but I do remember what was most important to me back then was it was a blast and studying/copying photographs of Rodins sculptures was something I still remember today as being the best fun I ever had painting. While it may not have given me a style, it gave me something more important, the passion to go on and do more. Then again it may very well be the very thing that gave me the style I have today. I wouldn't be too quick making hard and fast rules about how someone will work best creatively.

In an ideal world every art student would have life drawing classes, learn the mechanics of representing 3D in a 2D form and be able to maintain that kind of study daily for the months and years it takes to become great in their chosen artistic field. In the real world many people sketch because they like being creative and creativity, unlike more academic pursuits is best developed when you're enjoying it and being inspired. If you're not enjoying it, you won't carry on doing it in the long term and all those rules you're putting up about how you absolutely must do this will be for nothing.

[Jetpack]

Do not, I REPEAT DO NOT listen to this. There is something to be said for doing master copies. but "finding your own style by copying others" is a crock. Its ridiculous. You develop a style by studying source material and drawing from life. Every eye is different, so you will naturally find a way of representing what you see that is individual. drawing without reference is silly. I dont mean you have to have reference in front of you for EVERY picture, but you should have that reference built up in your mind. so you should be studying reference constantly. People watch at wal mart, sketch a construction site, do whatever yo ucan to build your own mental references. If you want to be professional you need to do all the work that it takes.

I'll have to disagree with you right here. Many people develop certain styles by learning and copying skilled and known artists. A teacher can invent, the student can innovate. I mean, one of the very first thing I saw when I lurked on this site was a suggestion by some users telling people to favorite certain artists because of their particular style. I don't think you should necessarily copy a unique material, but it doesn't hurt to emulate a style and turn it into something new.

[bullitbikini]

thats what i mean though, copying is not emulating. I learned alot from Hyung tae kim, Frank Cho, Frazetta. but i spent far too long in my young life copying other artists "Styles" I would draw things how i thought they would(herp animu). but never took the time to figure out what it is they where representing. I only "knew" anatomy because of how someone else was representing it. Emulation of a style is something that should be used as practice or support, not as a fundamental.

[Jetpack]

You used to draw and copy pieces of anime art, and now you are embarrassed about what you did because you learned from art school about the western style of art.

http://whitetrashpalace.deviantart.c...LE-2-169660702

Hehehe...only those in this generation of artists who want to go into this career had some influence from anime. Myself included.

[bullitbikini]

its not that i feel ashamed, its that it inhibited my growth. I am not one who was born with talent, ive drawn day in and day out since i was 4ish, so using anime as a crutch of sorts for so long really killed me. I am more frustrated because i feel like my current work is not good enough because of my own stubbornness in adolescence. If i had taken as much time and effort as i put into anime, into lifedrawing or a more legit form of art id be so much better now.

[eptigo]

well, i attempted to revise it a bit, if not adequate what can i do to make revisions better

wasn't really sure what to do with the pose. is posing really that significant for something like this? i think i kinda liked one of the older versions better

[TinyBird]

...Are those head busts supposed to be the same girl as in the one in fullbody? Because honestly those headshots don't look like they're even featuring a human, and definitely not the same character.
You seriously need to spend some time in front of a mirror and pay attention how your facial muscles move if you did those expressions.
In the first one she's pulling the sides of her lower lip down more than pulling her upper lip up, so those wrinkles look pretty unnatural, and the same wrinkles look even more unnatural because with an expression like that, there should be no nose wrinkles as the nose muscles are being pulled down. The third face just looks even less like the same character, and nose on of those three faces follow the facial characteristics of the face in the fullbody. Lips, mouth, eye shape, eyebrows, none of those are the same.