Legs too short?

[SDNolan]

I've been too much of a pussy to post any WIPs here until now, because I'm a sensitive little wuss kid and have critique-phobia. But this needs to be done, so I'm going to suck it up and post like everyone else. I'm not asking you to go easy on me, either, because I won't be doing myself any favors by ignoring problems. Polished crap is still crap.
Pretty much every element of this painting is far from finished, especially the anatomy of the boy. (Arms, abdominals, what have you.) But I tend to be a bad judge of my own work. My biggest problem is that I don't know if the legs are proportional-- I suspect they might be too short. I think another problem is that since the legs are pretty much just one smooth plane, it'll be hard to make them look like they have the same amount of detail as everything else. Any suggestions on how to handle that?
The theme of this painting is supposed to be futility, portrayed by a heavy rainfall keeping down fragile wings.

[SDNolan]

Is no comments good or bad?

[Maggietoh]

Its not bad. I feel he's a little stiff- like a marble statue, if this is what you are going for then good, but I'd change the color of the skin to a warmer hue. Also the legs don't bother me, I think they actually look good, but the rest of the body looks to blocky and carved. Muscles lie beneath the skin so even if you want him to be muscular, you still will want to tone it down a bit. Where the thighs meet the water should create circular ripples in the water. The wings and the body look disconnected to me as if they were tacked on and not really a part of his anatomy. Overall its pretty good so I know you have the ABILITY to push it further. Right now its just an issue of whether or not you are willing to go back to square one and fix the problems. The rain drops are not working. Study pictures of droplets of water and see the way the highlights and magnification work.

[SDNolan]

Thanks a lot, you've been really helpful! By 'tone it down a bit' do you mean making the muscles less defined?
Also, I haven't started on the raindrops yet- the circles are just notes for me for placement.

[Mirana]

Yes, but raindrops do not look like spheres. They move too fast for us to see them that way. Especially if you're going for "heavy rainfall". They should look like streaks. Unless you're going to do spots and then use motion blur to make rain. That would make sense, but you'd need a lot more spots.

Legs look fine since foreshortening can cause them to look "short." I don't have a problem with the stylization of the muscles, myself. If the wings are translucent, they should be reflecting some color on him. They wouldn't throw opaque shadows like what you have on his leg. Putting some of their color reflecting on him will make them look like they both part of the scene together. Feet will be really dark, both due to their position, and to push them back in space. Jaw and neck seem too wide for the rest of his features and shoulders.

Also...his lioncloth is itsy-bitsy and he'd be showing some sack. Just sayin'.

[Jetpack]

The face looks a bit odd. His head and nose tilts up, but his chin remains level with my eyes. The eyes are too close to each other and should be spread out a little further as the head isn't in perspective.

[Rafal Dorsz]

I just wanted to point out that the big raindrop in the bottom right is creating a tangent with the edge of the wing. Also the medium sized raindrop near his right (our left) hand is creating a tangent with one of the lines on the wing.
That and what others said about light, his neck, and stiffness of the pose.

Keep it up!

[SDNolan]

Um... I feel sorta dumb now, but what exactly is a tangent?
Also, how can I make the pose more relaxed? Would it help if the muscles were less defined (of course keeping in mind which muscles actually would be relaxed)?

[Jetpack]

Um... I feel sorta dumb now, but what exactly is a tangent?
Also, how can I make the pose more relaxed? Would it help if the muscles were less defined (of course keeping in mind which muscles actually would be relaxed)?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tangent

You can try not making the body stay completely symmetrical. Perhaps incorporating contrapposto; adjust the shoulders and hips.

[ScottDotNet]

Hi,

My opinion is that his neck and traps look like they are from a bigger guy. Maybe make the neck thinner and lower the angle of the trapezius. The sternomastoid muscles are IMO too defined and he seems to have a pit where the adams apple should be.

I hope that helps in some small way.

Btw are you working from a reference at all?

[SDNolan]

Hi,

My opinion is that his neck and traps look like they are from a bigger guy. Maybe make the neck thinner and lower the angle of the trapezius. The sternomastoid muscles are IMO too defined and he seems to have a pit where the adams apple should be.

I hope that helps in some small way.

Btw are you working from a reference at all?

Yes, thank you! It's very helpful.
As for the reference... sort of. I searched for over a week and couldn't find anything that fit my needs so I had my younger brother pose for me. I took pictures and used them for reference. The problem though is that my brother is only thirteen. He does gymnastics, so he's very toned for a boy his age, but he's also very small. I tried to make the proportions more adult, and that's where it got difficult. I've been using a bunch of different references... it's not working so well.

[Mirana]

Here are some great, diverse athletic body type reference photos that a friend of mine put up. They are mostly straight-on, but they should help you with the upper body and neck.

[Marlo]

You should do a lot of arm studies, muscles, skin, bones, lighting how they are foreshortened, and etc. How they are foreshortened, it just looks small compared to his body and such. Hope this helps!!

[JeffX99]

Main problem for me is lighting (besides anatomy issues already mentioned) - it isn't consistent. See the nicely defined cast shadow from the head and chin? The suggested cast shadow from teh left hand doesn't match. For the face/head to cast teh shadow it does the left arm wouold cast a shadow across the lower abs, loin cloth, etc.

I think you have a lot of potential - I like the concept and metaphor, just need to consider the fundamentals and make sure they're worked out...in order.

[SDNolan]

Main problem for me is lighting (besides anatomy issues already mentioned) - it isn't consistent. See the nicely defined cast shadow from the head and chin? The suggested cast shadow from teh left hand doesn't match. For the face/head to cast teh shadow it does the left arm wouold cast a shadow across the lower abs, loin cloth, etc.

I think you have a lot of potential - I like the concept and metaphor, just need to consider the fundamentals and make sure they're worked out...in order.

You're right! Thanks, I can't believe I didn't catch that. I'm usually pretty good with lighting.

[Hellcow]

To me it looks like his head is slightly too big compared to the size of his torso.

I like what you are doing with the wings, the detailing you have begun on the right one looks great.

[SDNolan]

Got a little further. Took all the advice I was given, and it's looking a bit better now. Again, open to any and all critiques.

[jacobanderson]

Wow that's a big improvement. I have one thing to say though. The [his] right bicep wouldn't look quite like the way you have it there, the muscle would flex, but not to the extent that you have it defined based on the sharp shadow; I went and flexed in my bathroom to check, as it has the same kind of lighting, and my body type is similar to the image. (Well, my arms are a little bigger...but you get the idea.)

[tanguydewavrin]

my comments and suggestions:

darken the feet

the neck and head are too wide
the torso is nice
the face is too symmetrical, possibly tilt the head?

[freiheit]

I'm thinking he was supposed to have his face facing the sky? If so, his jaw isn't seen from the right angle.
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_sdcxO6UvE2...looking_up.jpg

if not, then the fact his face is condenced in the center, and the lack of volumes and planes on the side on his face give the illusion that it's larger then it really is

Edit: Very quick paint over, please look beyond the fact he looks sorta like Steven Tyler now. xD I just want to demonstrate the importance that the sides of the face have planes that won't all face the viewer. Right now, it's like the sides of the face where twisted towards the viewer, creating the impression of a larger, round face. If you want to keep the baby face, simply make the contrast more subtle.

[Bai Fan]

Nice paintover.

Does rain fall in perfect spheres? I would think that it is more oblong/oval.

Nice start though. Any ideas about the environment?

[Mr. Corlan]

I don't know how drastic changes you want to make, but you originally said that this was supposed to be about "futility", being beaten down by "heavy rainfall". In that case I would sink his bottom basically to the ground, right now he's holding himself up on his feet quite high for squatting; slope his shoulders down and forward a bit; tilt the rib cage forward so he's slumping more; and maybe tilt the head back so he's got his face straight up into the rain.

Now you've got him sitting in water and there's pretty bright light coming from almost directly above, so . . . light reflecting off the water? It could be very bright. If it's heavy rainfall there would be a lot of drops bouncing off his head, shoulders, and wings, which the light would change into a very bright spray. The wings are totally two-dimensional right now and separate from his body. I'd probably have them curve forward a bit over his shoulders so you can see the other side and show multiple layers overlapping.

A bunch of people have commented on the raindrops. Figure those out, it seems like it'll change the whole thing. Haha. Drops that size could kill a man.

[SDNolan]

Nice paintover.

Does rain fall in perfect spheres? I would think that it is more oblong/oval.

Nice start though. Any ideas about the environment?

I'm interested in that kind of static, moment-in-time look.
And... I have no idea. Normally at this point I'd consider my work to be over halfway done, but I understand people here tend to have a lot higher standards than me. I'm not sure what else I could do without making it overcrowded or attempting something that's completely out of my reach at the moment. I'm still considering having some normal-sized dragonflies dead in the water.
I have this image in my head where if I 'zoomed out' of the painting he'd be in this sorta box-like room with no ceiling, and the water level is slowly rising. Imminent doom and all that jazz.

[SDNolan]

I don't know how drastic changes you want to make, but you originally said that this was supposed to be about "futility", being beaten down by "heavy rainfall". In that case I would sink his bottom basically to the ground, right now he's holding himself up on his feet quite high for squatting; slope his shoulders down and forward a bit; tilt the rib cage forward so he's slumping more; and maybe tilt the head back so he's got his face straight up into the rain.

Now you've got him sitting in water and there's pretty bright light coming from almost directly above, so . . . light reflecting off the water? It could be very bright. If it's heavy rainfall there would be a lot of drops bouncing off his head, shoulders, and wings, which the light would change into a very bright spray. The wings are totally two-dimensional right now and separate from his body. I'd probably have them curve forward a bit over his shoulders so you can see the other side and show multiple layers overlapping.

A bunch of people have commented on the raindrops. Figure those out, it seems like it'll change the whole thing. Haha. Drops that size could kill a man.

Well... how drastic do you think the changes should be? I'm here to learn, so have at me.
The idea with the raindrops was that the larger they were the closer they'd be to the viewer. But you're right, I've noticed that they just sorta look like they're different sizes. I would really appreciate any tips you can give me on how to bring them forward/push them back in space. As for making the rainfall heavier, I'm planning to add some very small ones throughout the picture so I get the effect without overcrowding.
And the wings... I see what you mean but I can't help but feel that with what you're suggesting it would come out looking more like wet paper than structured wings, and I just don't think it would work as far as the anatomy goes and how they're positioned on his back. I do agree with you though, so I'll play around with it and find a way to make them more three-dimensional.
You know, I think you're the third person to mention something about 'drastic changes' or 'going back to square one.' I'm tempted to ask if this peice is just generally bad, but I'm guessing that's one question I don't really want to know the answer to.

[SDNolan]

I don't know how drastic changes you want to make, but you originally said that this was supposed to be about "futility", being beaten down by "heavy rainfall". In that case I would sink his bottom basically to the ground, right now he's holding himself up on his feet quite high for squatting; slope his shoulders down and forward a bit; tilt the rib cage forward so he's slumping more; and maybe tilt the head back so he's got his face straight up into the rain.

Now you've got him sitting in water and there's pretty bright light coming from almost directly above, so . . . light reflecting off the water? It could be very bright. If it's heavy rainfall there would be a lot of drops bouncing off his head, shoulders, and wings, which the light would change into a very bright spray. The wings are totally two-dimensional right now and separate from his body. I'd probably have them curve forward a bit over his shoulders so you can see the other side and show multiple layers overlapping.

A bunch of people have commented on the raindrops. Figure those out, it seems like it'll change the whole thing. Haha. Drops that size could kill a man.

I hate to trouble you, but if you have the time do you think you could show me how you think the legs/midsection should look so that he's not holding himself up quite so high? I'm having a really hard time with it and could really use some help.

[kiwigarbage]

For the wings...since the outline is so heavy, I don't get the perception of fragility. Also, is the rain just starting, or has it been going on? If it is in the middle of the rainfall, shouldn't he have sopping hair and droplets on his skin? Maybe his wings are sagging from the weight of the water..

Just thoughts

[Mr. Corlan]

Haha. No, it's not bad. I said that because it looks like you spent a lot of time on this and you might not want to throw that all out the window. I know I hate doing that.

OK, now that I've fiddled around with this a bit I realize I mis-spoke about lowering his body to the ground. Sorry about that. From the view you have it just wouldn't work. You can see my photo, it looks like: Ack! mutant, no-torso, amputee! I also attached two profile pictures so you can see the difference I was thinking of. I ALSO did a quick sketch of your image as I might do it. It's not very good, and don't look at my legs, they're worse than yours, but it sums up my thoughts about your piece.

While you're following Freiheit's awesome paintover, do the same with the plane underneath the chin, right now the head is cut off from the neck.

[SDNolan]

Haha. No, it's not bad. I said that because it looks like you spent a lot of time on this and you might not want to throw that all out the window. I know I hate doing that.

OK, now that I've fiddled around with this a bit I realize I mis-spoke about lowering his body to the ground. Sorry about that. From the view you have it just wouldn't work. You can see my photo, it looks like: Ack! mutant, no-torso, amputee! I also attached two profile pictures so you can see the difference I was thinking of. I ALSO did a quick sketch of your image as I might do it. It's not very good, and don't look at my legs, they're worse than yours, but it sums up my thoughts about your piece.

While you're following Freiheit's awesome paintover, do the same with the plane underneath the chin, right now the head is cut off from the neck.

The wings you drew are perfect! I'm not all that enthusiastic about completely redoing them since I spent so much time on them, but now that I see the difference it has to be done. Thanks for taking the time to show me!
And the body... geez this is gonna be tough for me. Yours looks so much better but I'm not sure I have it in me to make such a drastic change, especially since I'm starting to wish I could just be done with this... I'll do my best though.

[SDNolan]

Sigh... Ironically, trying to fix this has been pretty much futile, and I really wish I could just be done with it, so I'm going to keep the body pretty much as is, change the wings, and finish up from there. It was a cool experiment but I've got a bunch of other concepts I'd rather be spending my time on. Kinda disappointed that I wasn't able to get this right, but... oh well. Next time I'll post WIP images at an earlier stage so it's easier to use everyone's advice.

[Mr. Corlan]

Ha ha ha! Now you know why I said what I did about "drastic changes"! I can't say I blame you though. I wouldn't shed too many tears over it. At some point you've just got to decide what's more worth your time. Just don't forget what you've learned! Good luck.

-Mr. Corlan