A career in Art when you already have a carreer.

[jrstebbins]

Rob Liefeld is an exception, a product of a very specific time and set of circumstances. The only reason he still gets work is because he made a name for himself. These days there are lots of artists who got work in the 90s who wouldn't be able to get work right now (if they were just starting out) because the competition is so much more fierce.

And sadly, we kinda have a tendency to overestimate our own work. If art directors aren't biting, well, there's usually a reason. Maybe some artist won the lottery by being at exactly the right place in the exactly right time when some AD needed something NOW NOW NOW but you can't really expect that to happen to everybody.

This is very true and you cannot, absolutely cannot, compare yourself to anyone in this manner. It is just resentment and jealousy and it will crush you. Just do your best work and keep pushing. Very few get lucky, but many have had good fortunes because they kept putting their best foot forward...one after the other, even when you can't see where you are going...

[Wooly ESS]

...the doors are shut because you don't have a worthless art degree....

I think you just proved that art degrees DO have worth!

[JeffX99]

The hardest thing about being an artist is when you know you can do something but the world/film, comic and game companies tell you you can't and then you see the level of work they do and know damn well you can hang with any of them but the doors are shut because you don't have a worthless art degree. Yes, they are worthless since every lesson any art school teaches can be found online FOR FREE!!!

For me, it's hard to stay motivated when hacks like Rob Liefeld gets work and I don't. Even after making the rounds at every con I possibly can, I hear nothing back. It's hard enough just being an artist but having to contend with the ignorance of those who think they know better when maybe all they did was kiss ass to get where they are because the quality of many "professionals" leaves me scratching my head.

Really?...Hmmm...usually you get what you pay for.

Doors are rarely shut in film, comic and game companies because you don't have a degree. Usually it has to do with not being ready/good enough yet, not being someone others want to work with, or hopefully just not matching up to what they're looking for at the moment.

And never compare your work to the lowest end crap - sure it's frustrating but there is nothing you can do about Liefeld having work. Best not to compare anyway as jrstebbins said, but it is a good idea to gauge your own work by the best out there and try to see what they're doing that you're not.

[dpaint]

The hardest thing about being an artist is when you know you can do something but the world/film, comic and game companies tell you you can't and then you see the level of work they do and know damn well you can hang with any of them but the doors are shut because you don't have a worthless art degree. Yes, they are worthless since every lesson any art school teaches can be found online FOR FREE!!!

For me, it's hard to stay motivated when hacks like Rob Liefeld gets work and I don't. Even after making the rounds at every con I possibly can, I hear nothing back. It's hard enough just being an artist but having to contend with the ignorance of those who think they know better when maybe all they did was kiss ass to get where they are because the quality of many "professionals" leaves me scratching my head.

This is why people don't get work right here. All of the pro's I know took advice when starting out and got better. If you think you are as good as a pro but you can't get work, think again. To get in an art industry you need to compare yourself to the top of the industry, not the exceptions or the bottom. If you can't do the same quality work, in the same time frame, then guess what? you aren't ready for primetime.

If someone tells you you need to improve your (fill in the blank) you damn well better listen. Nothing screams amateur more than a person who complains they're as good as a pro but they just haven't got the breaks.

[pimpwacker]

This is why people don't get work right here. All of the pro's I know took advice when starting out and got better. If you think you are as good as a pro but you can't get work, think again. To get in an art industry you need to compare yourself to the top of the industry, not the exceptions or the bottom. If you can't do the same quality work, in the same time frame, then guess what? you aren't ready for primetime.

If someone tells you you need to improve your (fill in the blank) you damn well better listen. Nothing screams amateur more than a person who complains they're as good as a pro but they just haven't got the breaks.

Until recently I was going down this path, or at least getting ready to go down this path. I posted some work on this site and much to my surprise I received absolutely no positive responses for it, I'm used to being praised for my stuff so I was incensed. My feeling of resentment were aggravated when one of the pro's on here quite flatly stated that I needed to go back to basics, that I didn't understand anatomy, form, value or color. being used to thinking I was the big fish caused me to initial react negatively ( haply not actually posting anything though). It took me all of a day to realize that I was in no way a big fish, I was just in a really small pond.
that enabled me to take the 'attacks' as what they really were, friendly and generous advice.

I'm certainly not going to try to say that I'm even one percent down the road yet, but I feel like I now have the attitude and the support network to actually eventually become a big fish.

yes this is off topic forte thread, but it fits with the way the convo has been shifting.

[PxelSlayer]

I must say, some of these stories here are quite inspiring! You "old geezers" sure do have a very clear way of seeing things. I guess it comes with time and experience...

There is one thing that`s chewing me up from inside, though...first of all, getting some praise here and still not feeling worthy of it. You know, that voice inside you that is always, constantly whispering "You have to get better. You have to be the best. This is a competition, no matter what they say. You know it." That annoying, mean little voice that just eats up all the joy of creating something and that triggers the "fear" of picking up a brush or a pencil. Kinda like me in these past 2 weeks...

But, not to digress further, here`s one other thing - safety? As in, financial safety. Sure, great artists are capable of supporting themselves with their art, but what is with us, "non-stellar" material folks? I`m really worried about starving (yea, I kinda like to eat, so that`s my main concern ), not being able to pay the bills, etc. Also - art is HARD WORK. For an average monthly "salary" an artist has to work a lot more than somebody with an average 9 to 5 job...right? I`m looking at some of freelancers here, and all they do is work, work, work, just to survive. That`s horrible. Do I really want to go down this path? Am I capable of going down this path? And how can I answer this one for myself?

Questions, questions, questions. I`m 26, and already I see everything in life as a big struggle. A war I`m destined to loose, even if I manage to win some battles. I`m sure this mindset has something to do with where I was born and grew up, but I need to break out of this mentality and way of thinking.

So..."old geezers" ...what am I missing here? What am I supposed to learn from all this?

P.S. Ok, I REALLY digressed here, sorry, but as it seems this thread is a mind cluster of more experienced people, I just had to use the opportunity.

[JeffX99]

Good questions...as an "old geezer", like I mentioned in another thread - you do begin to gain some insight maybe or at least start to see a lot of similarities between successful artists and peers and those that don't quite cut it. You get to occasionally hang out with the likes of Jim Gurney, Iain McCaig, Syd Mead, Scott Christensen, Matt Smith, etc. and just BS with them about stuff and hear their stories and wisdom (not to mention all the great friends you make - and how easy it is to impress the girls).

Things do become a little clearer in some respects as you develop and spend time as a professional, and to be honest, most of the time we are just trying to share what we know to be effective and help others avoid the same pitfalls we encountered...and things we either wish more experienced artists told us more clearly, or reflecting back, maybe we heard but didn't grasp.

All those observations you made are quite accurate...and I don't have much of an answer or wisdom to share. I don't think it is a war that you lose though...but it is a constant struggle to learn and grow and improve...there are very few (if any that I'm aware of) careers or disciplines that require so much constant growth and effort. Even musicians reach a certain level of ability and sort of plateu - sure they keep "in tune" and grow a bit depending on their interests but for the most part their struggle is different and more about "making it" and staying there than about their skill level.

So yeah, art is a bitch, and I don't mean that in a too funny way (some maybe), but DAMN she's a good lookin one! The only way to answer those questions for yourself is to head down that path...with a chainsaw and some high explosives.

[Ryan_B]

Doors are rarely shut in film, comic and game companies because you don't have a degree. Usually it has to do with not being ready/good enough yet, not being someone others want to work with, or hopefully just not matching up to what they're looking for at the moment.

Another door slammer is not being willing to work 60+ (often, 80+) hours a week. A lot of talented people have stopped knocking on the door when they realize they are working a lot of extra hours for no compensation.

Nothing sweeter than working 40 hours a week (with some PAID overtime occasionally) and getting back 20+ hours a week to work on your own artwork.

[Doug Hoppes]

PxelSlayer,

Actually, it's a mis-nomer to say that everybody but artists have to work the average 9 - 5 job. If you are professional, then there are no such things as a 9 - 5. As a software developer, most of my colleagues and I would work around 60 - 100 hours per week during our mid-20's to mid-40's. The reason was due to deadlines, too much work for too few people, and general chaos. Doctor's, lawyers, anyone starting their own business, etc... all work more than the typical 9 - 5.

Remember that art is a business like anything else. If you want to become successful at that business, you have to work at it. Constantly and throughout your entire career. I don't have the luxury of working 60 hours per week on my art work, but, I do work a lot (outside of my regular software development job). If you are going to be outstanding at ANY profession, then it is a matter of a lot of studying, experimentation, etc throughout your entire career.

Also, remember that you are always studying... no matter what you do. I still have to read a lot of books on programming/software development on my own time and do some coding on my own time (outside of the office).

The other thing that you find is that, as you get more experienced and better, you become more efficient. However, this also means that you are harder on yourself. What was acceptable 10 years ago is no longer acceptable now. The really good professionals push themselves to make sure that they do their best work.

Dougie

[Wooly ESS]

I don't know many professional artists (fine art) who don't need to supplement their income in some fashion. Many of the serious fine artists teach, and this is one place where that art school degree really comes into play. You won't teach without it. Others own and manage art supply stores, and yet others own and manage galleries. They are all fully engaged in the world of art. They are just not necessarily putting paint on canvas 100% of the time. I have one art teacher who really enjoys teaching because he values the creative energy that comes out of the interaction between artists of all levels. He takes that energy back into his own work. His classes are his muse!

What was the question again?

[Dusty]

But, not to digress further, here`s one other thing - safety? As in, financial safety. Sure, great artists are capable of supporting themselves with their art, but what is with us, "non-stellar" material folks? I`m really worried about starving (yea, I kinda like to eat, so that`s my main concern ), not being able to pay the bills, etc. Also - art is HARD WORK. For an average monthly "salary" an artist has to work a lot more than somebody with an average 9 to 5 job...right? I`m looking at some of freelancers here, and all they do is work, work, work, just to survive. That`s horrible. Do I really want to go down this path? Am I capable of going down this path? And how can I answer this one for myself?

There is no guarantees in this area other than yes, it is a lot of work. But the difference between busting your ass in the art industry and something like (random job that I would get my ass beat at) construction is that HOPEFULLY it is rewarding to you. Despite all the jaded game artists out there that might say otherwise, it is fun!

I come to work every day and plop my butt down in a sweet chair, crack my heavy metal, sip my coffee, and model/texture things in 3D. Dude, that is FUN! It is also hard work, but it's not hard work that I complain about.

That said...yes, it took a lot of back-breakingly hard work to get there. You need to hurt and bleed and suffer to get what you want in life. If you want an easy life, then take the easy life, but in 30 years will you look back on yourself and ask why you didn't put forth just a WEE bit more effort?

[m8y]

Very few get lucky, but many have had good fortunes because they kept putting their best foot forward

When you are trying to 'break into' a creative field you are just a portfolio. There is a lot to be said for people that have proven they can deliver on-time, with consistent quality and good communication etc. They deserve the work they get and should be respected, if not admired. In my opinion at least.

I've seen your sketchbook. I think you'd only be foolish if you did not go for it.

That's very flattering and I appreciate the sentiment, forgive me if I'm not totally convinced.
I guess my biggest concern is financial. You certainly don't get into this industry for the money, but overall I believe illustration especially is grossly undervalued from what I've picked up from interviews and the like. At my skill level I'm expecting to be offered some stupidly low rates.

[schylardipre]

Justin Reed, I find your art lacking in some areas, I bet if you improved your portfolio to a level of lets say a craig mullins, Iain Mccaig etc... I'm sure your life would change. Be better than the best is all I have to say. You can be a master at 40 if you really work at it. The internet raised the bar thats all.

[Epscillion]

Wow. This has been one of the most informative and interesting threads I've read in a long time! I needed this. Thanks everyone.

What artist hasn't met their share of bumps and proverbial pot holes along their journey? Right now I'm just a college student balancing work and art projects, hoping to find small jobs in the games and comic industry. It can all be so overwhelming! I know pretty much exactly what I want to do, but I just need to find the people/publishers that work in anime style. And it's really hard since my Fine Arts school has a depressing lack of support for illustration and anyone pursuing that field. I guess the administration doesn't want their fine art school to be 'cheapened' by having a low art form degree availiable. If only my state didn't have only one art school.

And I have to ask anyone reading this that has made it as an artist...once you get published, does it really make it that much easier? I keep hearing the phrase over and over from other artists "getting your foot in the door", almost like it's some sort of promised land. I know it looks good on a resume, but wouldn't they look for talent more than just your track record, so to speak?

[QueenGwenevere]

Switching gears in mid-life ain't nothin! My dad switched from woodworking to a career doing industrial design and 3D modeling in his late 50s, early 60s - and he was barely computer-savvy before that.

If I recall, he crunched on a few courses, crunched on some more advanced courses, stayed up all night practicing and studying a lot, and networked like mad. Now he's raking in the ID jobs and making a name for himself... People ask him to teach 3D workshops already and he only started learning 3D a few years ago!

So I'd say anything is possible. Go for it.

[vineris]

And I have to ask anyone reading this that has made it as an artist...once you get published, does it really make it that much easier?

Well, I haven't "made it" but I have been published and no, it isn't the promised land. It's just one step. You still have to work your ass off to get more jobs and jump at those opportunities. You can still fuck it up if you let things go (a large part of why I'm not further along -- I wasn't ready to follow up at that point, and now those opportunities are gone.)

[ccsears]

i dont know if i would characterize myself as a "success story" but i do have a job in the entertainment industry now at age 36, and i spent my twenties and early thirties working as an optical engineer for Boeing on a defense contract for the USAF.

it is possible, but it is also incredibly difficult. even when you think youve finally made it, you realize you havent.

depends on what you want though. if you just want any entertainment industry career, its not that impossible. if you want some creative freedom within this industry, its f'ing hard.

anyway, i never mean to rain on anyone's parade. you can do it, and it is worth it. but it's like loving someone who's getting treated for cancer. you were happier before the diagnosis, and there are impossibly dramatic mood swings while fighting to survive. but you come out the other side with a new appreciation for it and a kind of love that's impossible to break. sounds romantic, right? it takes a total commitment, and you won't realize just how much you have to give until you're in the middle of it.

quite frankly, you won't make it to the other side until you find that inexhaustible source within you. and even then, the process will take a chunk out of your ass. the trick really is learning to love your life and what you do under sone of the most difficult circumstances possible. and the scary thing is when you realize that that's just art job stuff and there literally are life changing experiences out there. it's very humbling. learning to draw wasnt as hard as watching my mom get paralyzed by a stroke. wasnt as hard as watching my uncle die from aids either.

so, especially to those who say they're already as good as the pro's... stay humble. life's not a linear process so just keep working at it. the urge to be good at this stuff and create is universal, but the opportunity is not.