Commission help?

[Divine Oblivion]

I feel as though I've hit a rut - and I feel like I've barely begun with it. :/ This is one composition picked from four thumbnails by a client, so I can't do many major overhauls with the angle/positions.

Any help with the lighting, rendering, depth, and anatomy would be greatly appreciated. (-Especially- the mans face. I am absolutely terrible with people faces. Oh, and my color pallet. I'm actually not quite sure what I'm doing with that. )

(And a bit of unrelated backstory: The four armed guy is a race of alien called a Vanguard, this one's name is Two-Talon. Guy just awoke from cryo to shut off an alarm. Two Talon awoke also, and come up behind the guy, because he has no idea what he's doing with the controls, and starts tinkering with said controls, startling the human. Hence their nakedness and seemingly awkward positions.)

[Cretorian]

I think you might be jumping the gun by starting to render out the faces already. Might be better to work up the piece as a whole, bigger chunks first then widdle it down to the details.

P.S. Try flipping it give yourself a fresh look at it

Hope this helps

[hippl5]

Why is one arm coming out from the back, while the other is right under the armpit? Should they be symmetrical and come out from under the armpit on both sides?

[Divine Oblivion]

hippl5: That was more me trying to be a bit more dynamic with the arm posing, seeing as the poses are rather stoic as-is. I'll move that arm up and back. I didn't even catch that. Silly mistake. c: Thank you for catching it!

Cretorian: Thanks man - I kinda have this problem where I'll render it up to a point.. and then go mad with detailing a specific part until it's "finished", and then move on to the next bit. I really need to work on rendering the image as a whole. I'll flip the image and see if I can't find any mistakes other then what's been pointed out. Thanks!

[nauvice]

all I'm seeing is a humanized man creature behind what looks to be a young boy. both naked. The artwork could easily be misinterpreted as yaoi

[Purgatory]

The alien things head looks a bit crocked. This is because his right eye looks like it starts at the end of the snout while his left eyes are further away from both the snout and the brow. His horns, despite the angle also look different from one another.

As for the human, his Adam's apple, or what I assume is his AA is too high up; and his shoulder/ collar bone also look out of place here. This last one can be considered more of a nitpick but what is he doing with his hands? I think he's putting up his hands as to say ''No way'' but at first glance it looks as if he is pressing them against something solid.

[Divine Oblivion]

zwarrior: Then, perhaps could you elaborate on how I could push the storytelling? Maybe extend the canvas to the right, and perhaps a doorway with two open cryotubes, and more unopened hinted in the background; maybe shifting the man so he looks more like he was caught tinkering with the controls?

I'm open to redrawing/repainting if it'll enhance the storytelling, as I'd rather this not be misinterpreted. (And I'll eventually cover the lad up with a pair of briefs or something. In the original text I was given, they were both nude because they had just emerged from cryosleep.)

Purgatory: I'll see what I can do about his head; would shifting the horns at all help with the crookedness? (The two fore-eyes are supposed to be placed somewhat like front-facing eyes, and the two back ones are below the fore-facing, and meant to be more for looking on either side of him.)

I'll move the guys shoulders up more, and I'll fix his adams apple/jawline - or hell, I'll probably just redraw him. He's meant to be startled from tinkering with the controls by the big alien. So, would it look better if he was more hunched over, his hands kinda pulled back slightly from the panel, with his head turned away from the viewer and looking up at the alien, as if to say, "Shit, what did I do wrong?"?

I'd really like to be able to push the narrative of the image, so it's not misinterpreted, as zwarrior said, as "yaoi". Thanks a lot for pointing out these errors everyone!

(I'll post an update tomorrow, you're all rad. )

[Divine Oblivion]

Alright, so I moved up the aliens back-arm and made his second deltoid and trapezius visible - hopefully it looks better. I temporarily covered the guy up, and redrew him in a different pose, hopefully he looks a little more startled from touching controls he probably shouldn't have messed with? (Tilted the aliens right horn down, as well.)

Moved the canvas off to the right, and made the door-way semi visible. (Perhaps this is where the mysterious warm light is coming from? I at least hope it's semi-believable.) Aaand I toyed around with the perspective to make sure everything is aligned.

Thoughts? (I hope the perspective doesn't look too... awkward? I'm actually quite new to using it, as I usually wing it. Any tips/feeback on that would be most appreciated!)

[JJacks]

I think your revision is much better. Their actions and body language seem more belivable. I also like the new hand gesture of the alien because it does give a sense of him trying to calm the man down a little.

I would reference some arms. They taper in a sort of not so obvious way and it's amazingly easy to draw an incorrect arm. The arm of the alien on the control panel, I am unsure of. I'm thinking, if I can see so much of his bicep, then the lower arm should be turned over towards the left a little.

[Purgatory]

I see something wrong with his shoulders. For this position you want only one shoulder visible on his right side. I assume there are two because of the line going though it. Getting rid of that line would be the end of that if the same shoulder wasn't too high up. As for his horns, his left one is just thicker around the time then the right.

And the aliens arm-the one reaching for the panel, looks broken around the elbow. The picture as a whole is indeed much better. Keep at it!

[nauvice]

sorry I didnt elaborate before, but your revision of their pose looks great! As for the briefs, I don't think you have to change the script; if you'd rather stay close to the story, nude is fine. And I don't know where it will be published, but since his back is facing us, the image's suitability broadens since it isn't be frontal nudity anymore (i know websites like facebook and deviantart for example, consider frontal nudez 'mature' even if its a drawing/painting)

also, does the Alien have to look at the viewer? If its possible, I think it would be best if the alien was staring at the guy, to make their interaction more apparent.

[stabby2486]

Maybe to enhance the impression that the alien is trying to calm the man down you could have the alien's hand make an open palm facing towards the man, like the way someone would gesture with their hand to tell you to stop? One still could perceive it as about to grab him.

[furiana]

I *like* the double shoulder; it's interesting! If that's what you're going for, then maybe adding the connection between the trapezius and the second shoulder would make it look more intentional?

EDIT: Sunny (below) and the others have a really good point, though. Figuring out the whole scene first probably would be a good idea.

[Sunny]

you are getting too bogged down with rendering the character before you even have your scene defined. This is not a good idea and this is why you are feeling the way you are.

Found this image online for you. Instead of building the whole thing at your top detail you should start at the lowest detail and build the whole scene up.

I would say to give that character a rest and work on the other parts.

[Sunny]

Heres what I had in mind. I usually start with a decent drawing but do a basic render like this. Then I upres it and refine it more. Then again and again.

[Divine Oblivion]

Thank you all so much for the crits! I really wasn't expecting this much feedback.

Now, letsee...

JJacks: I'm glad the positions are working better. I think I like the revision quite a bit more then my original, as well! Now, which arm are you referring to by the taper? Do you mean just the arm on the control panel, or all four of his arms? (I'll probably redraw his arm on the control panel, actually..)

Purgatory: Thanks! I see what you mean about his outstretched arm - I'll fix that with a redraw. Haha, see, this is what happens when I just work from a really rough draft.. and don't catch my own mistakes.. :B I'll fix the shoulder, as well, and slim down the left horn.

zwarrior: That's quite alright; I can take it in stride! I wanted the alien to have a somewhat, "Head-tilted -looking-down-my-nose-at-you-yet-somehow-partially-concerned" expression, but I don't think it's coming across as planned - it might look like he's looking at the viewer because his head isn't tilted down far enough, and his eyes are a solid black color, yes? I'll redraw his head then. c:

stabby2486: Perhaps softening up his expression and curling his fingers in a bit would give off that feeling while being a bit more subtle about it? I'll see what I can do - thank you!

furiana: I hadn't gotten to that part yet, I'm afraid. c: I render in chunks, which, overall, really hurts my pieces more then helps - as Sunny said, I need to just figure everything else out before I go crazy-mad with detail.

Sunny: Thank you so much for the paintover and the step by step - that's really helpful!

Haha, you've pointed out my biggest flaw. I've always had trouble with rendering in chunks - either a part of the character, or the characters and then I completely neglect the scene, which often makes them looked tacked on instead of actually being a part of the scene. I really need to train myself not to do that.

I'll post an update in a bit - I just wanted to reply and give my thanks to you lovely people.

[JJacks]

I was mainly talking about the arm on the control panel. Looking forward to another update. I like where this is going

[Purgatory]

No problem at all. I also look forward to seeing how this turns out.

[Divine Oblivion]

Here's the update I have, trying to take everyones thoughts into consideration to push it further. Not going to focus on rendering right now; but I'll be sure to stop detailing until I hit finished levels on separate parts of the image when I do start that up again. (I'm sad to see his head temporarily gone. D: I really liked the angle, but if I have to sacrifice it to make for more involvement, I don't mind. The painting was the fun part anyway!)

Your feedback keeps me going! (Seriously, I don't think I've ever received this much insight on a single piece before. It's rather mind-blowing.)

[stabby2486]

You know, I just gotta say. It's very interesting seeing artwork in the making, I mean not as a recording of a speedpaint on youtube or something like that, but seeing the progress as it's being made and being able to be a part of it. Good luck with this man, I'm looking forward to seeing the finished product.

Oh yeah, can you tell me when the deadline for this is if there is one?

EDIT: Oh yeah, maybe you could tilt the man's head up to make it look he's making eye contact with the alien?

[Divine Oblivion]

You know, I just gotta say. It's very interesting seeing artwork in the making, I mean not as a recording of a speedpaint on youtube or something like that, but seeing the progress as it's being made and being able to be a part of it. Good luck with this man, I'm looking forward to seeing the finished product.

Oh yeah, can you tell me when the deadline for this is if there is one?

I do as well. Seeing an artists progress is really fun. (Part of the reason why I love seeing step-by-steps from artists I admire. I tend to glean a lot of knowledge from it. Do I ever apply it? Well.. )

No deadline for this bad boy! I just want to have it finished sometime in the next couple weeks. I have a couple other things on my plate right now, too. (Applying for LAAFA and a few other commissions, mostly.)

Edit: Hnnngggg. With the angle he's at, it seems like it'd be difficult to crane his head visibly up. (Which is what I was going for to begin with... But, I absolutely fail at human heads/faces. So any pose that isn't a generic profile or a slight 3/4ths view is really difficult for me to accomplish - even if the face isn't showing.. :B I can damn well try, though!)

[stabby2486]

Maybe you could just twist his head a bit towards the alien. You could use photo ref, although in that case you should use your own, not having to worrying about crediting and copyrights and that crap, besides it's a pain looking for a very particular type of pose.

http://conceptart.org/forums/showthread.php?t=130468

Here's a good thead on using references, might wanna check it out if you haven't already.

[Divine Oblivion]

stabby2486: Thanks a lot for the link! Definitely been bookmarked. (Will actually read it in a bit.)

So... I'm sorry guys, I -really- didn't have the heart to get rid of the aliens head. :c Something about it just screams ~MAGIC~ at me right now, but hopefully I can compensate with other body language to tell the narrative. (In the text, the alien was listless, and merely annoyed with the human for touching the controls, not bothering to look at him too frequently. Though I don't think I should use that as an excuse because I love the pretty head.)

Also: Changed his horns around. I think I like them better this way?

I hope his arm on the control panel looks better and not broken! (And his reaching hand. How's that lookin'?)

[Purgatory]

I see no problems with leaving the head. Sometimes its best not to mess with what you feel is your winning formula-just make sure to have the insight to know whether its your honest opinion or just pride in your work though I'm sure thats not the issue here.

Now for the actual critique! The horns look better now although the problem I addressed with his right eye (how it looks like theres an eye under the brow when his eyes show they would be further down his face) Looks like its made its way back. The eye/ brow-line you had a few posts ago looked better. And the hand on the panel looks far too blocky, again I think what you had before was better.

[Divine Oblivion]

Purgatory: I hope I don't sound demanding, but could you maybe add a visual aid? I'm probably a dummy, because I can't really see what you're talking about with his eyes/horn setup. But, I did reposition his hand and slim it down.

How's this working for you? (Haha, see that? A background. Really rough - everything will be smoothed down and given a very smooth metal look with a few subtle textures. I hope everything is pulling together better? And yes, I will look up nebula/space reference near the end!)

[Purgatory]

No problem at all, when I pulled in I noticed that what I thought was the side of his face was actually his tooth. This could prove to be just as problematic though as I thought the gap between his brow and his tooth was his eye assuming I wont be the only one to notice and make the same mistake. In short I propose shortening the tooth just a tad.

Another thing I wanted to ask about was his right ear, I.e where is it?

[silentknights]

I've skimmed over the other posts but I may repeat some stuff.

Anyway a couple things that I think may help are:
1. Have two hands on the console like in Sunny's sketch. It gives the impression of hands dancing quickly and nimbly around the keys.

2. For the anatomy I would suggest some major muscle group that would work as a flexor for the second set of arms (like pectoral muscles). I think the most logical solution would be to have the origin points be somewhere along the ribs over the seratus muscles (forgive me if my spelling is off) and inserting where pectoral muscles would on the humerus. Of course that still conflicts with the first set of latisimus muscles so it requires a little more thought but it's a start. That is of course only one solution but there are other ways to figure it out.

It seems to be coming together though.

[Divine Oblivion]

Purgatory: Thank you very much for that clarification! I initially thought you meant his visible eyes, as I knew I hadn't made his other eye visible. :B I shortened that tusk somewhat so it's no longer touching his brow; does that look better?

And as for his ear; I didn't know where I wanted to put it! I think this looks a bit better on him as far as visible ear placement goes. If you can find anything else, don't hesitate to tell me, you've been a huge help!

silentknights: More what I wanted to convey, was his first encounter with the human, instead of having been standing there for long. So he only had one hand on the keys, with the other coming up to, probably, start clacking away! But if you feel it looks better with both hands on the controls, I'm willing to make a few alterations.

As far as his second pair of arms is concerned; I hope the double pectoral above his serratus makes some form of sense. (I had a LOT of trouble with the serratus, and usually I have no trouble at all. Perhaps it's because the double pectoral is in the way?)

I hope this looks to be coming along more as a whole, then in fragments like it was in earlier posts. Thank you all very much for the feedback; you've all helped me greatly improve this piece for both my client and my scholarship portfolio!!

[Purgatory]

Always good to hear you've been helpful-and its always good to return the favor! So far nothing catches my eye as far as things to critique on so Ill await the next installment. Also Im curious to know what you are using.

[rapxic]

it looks like the for armed guy is more helping rather than trying to avoid or prevent further harm that the human might be doing on the keyboard. i mean even if its a highly intelect being , put yourself in that four armed guys place. he has four arms for crying out loud, shouldn't he be holding this human by his neck or something?