why people aren't leaving conceptart.org

[Jason Manley]

I am just waking up to get a drink but I am very happy to see ca vibes happening again.

I love the helpful crit feature...we can totally do that. Since things are positive, here is something to look at. I did not take the time to screen the actual functioning site but this will give you an idea of the new main page. As a courtesy we are adding blogs from our favorite professionals in the community too which then sends CA traffic to them as a thanks for being awesome.

We are going to be doing an update on 4.0 soon. It is four small pages short of full beta and we will be letting in the top 500 ca users, post wise, to give it a go. Gonna be a a month or so as TAD has me swamped but it is coming. When it does we are opening up a number of other forum areas like Fine Art, 3d/sculpt, sketchbooks etc...This main page here for onebigmob (which was the layout concept used for our actual site) pulls the best from all categories. Photographymob's will just pull the photos, sketchmobs will pull the sketchbook goodness...each category get's it's own main page now.
You can select which groups you want to be in. You can broadcast to your social networks. You can invite your friends. You can find lots of peeps near you. And...this entire thing here, though it has had some slight tweaks to colors and design, is now functional. Bug fixing, adding the last four pages and then it is private beta time.

One of the things, besides testing and working with the actual site this image was the concept for, that I worked on this week while all this drama was happening was to begin negotiations with another firm who builds some very unique tools which we want to fully incorporate into all of CA. The spirit of CA has been far too much competition and we are pushing it to collaboration instead...international collaboration.

More to come

TAD update will come shortly too.


JM

[paberu]

Well..

I've been trying to stay out of politics and gossiping but I thought a maybe some of my thoughts my help some people.

Firstly, sure this place is not what it used to be before - but that's natural, everything in life changes, people come and go, things come up and what else have you. It's nice to reminiscent of the good ol days, but they are already past and you will never get them back. Instead I think it's best to take the most out of what you have today and move on forward.

Find people with similar interest, become friends and you will gain many things. That is by far the most important thing you can do here! And else where on the internet (and real world for that matter)! It is hard, but don't be shy to approach people , there is nothing to lose by trying.

Regardless of what happens here on CA, there is still other sites, messenger and a whole bunch of other tools that help people communicate with each other from across the globe.

We have all given something to CA, but I think most have gained something back too. So why get upset? Be happy with what you gained and just move on forward - whether it is here or else where.

Thought I'd post something once in a while. I don't want CA or any other community to die out, I think it's great to have as many artist communities as possible - for it will give back a greater variety of art for us to enjoy and be inspired by.

Cheers.

[Ryan K]

Sketchbook Support Group application would be neat. Have fields to enter in sketchbook links - then they pop up on your user header as little mini avatars which are links to the members in your SSG (or something simpler i don't know). Maybe even a little "Looking for SSG!" Flag next to your name or something..

[Armonah]

Buckweisel: What do you mean with stars exactly? Those stars next to the badges CHOW/COW winners have? (Which reminds me, what happened to the EOW badges? We already decided on an icon but it never got updated).

Because I disagree with removing those. To me at least they're not alienating, they're something to admire (and envy ) on other people and work towards achieving for myself. It's also a pretty good indicator of telling how good an artist is, because they almost all have one or more COW/CHOW stars.

And if you mean star rating on sketchbooks, I'm kinda skeptical about that. Five star sketchbooks are almost without exception good to look through. So are four star sketchbooks. The only problem with thát is that apparently some people do star trades: I rate your sketchbook five stars if you rate mine.

As for critique, well, the reason I don't critique often is because I'm just not good at it. If I ever get as good as it as Algen or Jana, I would critique the fuck out of everything.

And you're right that you can't really make people do art. You can lead a horse to water but can't make it drink after all.
But having said that, the overall atmosphere of this website has been the most motivating thing for me ever. A couple of pages back someone mentioned that CA turned hostile and elitist and that newbies got scared off of this site. I can't relate to that. This is the type of stuff I hear people saying on dA, and it comes -without exception- from people who've never even been here. Maybe the atmosphere has changed and the glory days are over, but it's still one of the most nurting and caring environments for young artists on the internet.

[Ryan K]

As for critique, well, the reason I don't critique often is because I'm just not good at it. If I ever get as good as it as Algen or Jana, I would critique the fuck out of everything.

The critique button would be for people to see how much they can trust the advice/critique given. If you see someone constantly posting critiques, and they're no good, this would be a way to decipher between more knowledgeable advice.

[Zapp!]

There could be an exclusive hardcore gloves off subforum where you have to earn it, sort of like the FF section, but with serious art direction. There would have to be a portfolio review or an initiation process (like joining a gang) Where you are given some fundamental assignments like perspective, anatomy, color theory and line art. In return we all follow tutorials and do master studies together once a week. If you can't keep up then you get jumped out. Not like I'd join or anything.

I quite like that idea though I think it should be a section in between Finally Finished and the Critique Centre. That way people who want to improve their art to the quality of the FF section and are serious about it, but maybe need something to help focus them, could do so there.

I also agree with BuckWeisel that one of the other good things about this site is that it inspires people to want to be artists. And one of the things that me inspired me more than anything here was the Best of CA, which was one of the main reasons I knew I wanted to be a concept artist. So I think it could be an idea to have something like a thread or sketchbook of the month which could be voted for at the end of every month and then shown up near the banner at the top of the page as inspiration to everyone. I guess it could be a bit like the emails that get sent out with links to sketchbooks and FF threads.

[George Abraham]

How about a "you’re special" button, which would take the pointer away from the "Thanks for a useful post" rating.

There's lots of peeps in here that get's under your skin for extra artistic credits. ;P

Even though someone's specialness can make their work priceless, others might find the behaviour hard to grasp.

[The Crazy Dude SRD]

I'm sorry but I was looking for the proper responce to the new news... and I found it on this thread (sorry I can't help being a little cheeky once in a blue moon)

[meth]

After reading entire post CA will live, i am glad, but is it now QneBigMob? Anyway i am waiting for my CA t-shirt, ah......

M

[George Abraham]

"Ok, I think it makes sense now. " - zaorr OBM.

But OBM vs DA? Cmon..

"Joe from Deviant art" vs "Joe from One Big Mob"?!!

Oh well, maybe folks might get lazy and just say "down at the mob" or "joe from the mob" or "avid mobster" or "young mobster".

[Brendan N]

How about a "you’re special" button, which would take the pointer away from the "Thanks for a useful post" rating.

There's lots of peeps in here that get's under your skin for extra artistic credits. ;P

Even though someone's specialness can make their work priceless, others might find the behaviour hard to grasp.

"Ok, I think it makes sense now. " - zaorr OBM.

zaorr, dear compatriot,

I think many people are incapable of making an iota of sense of your posts, and after two months, three weeks, two days and about 7 hours of dedicated analysis I think I have found your modus operandi. By your leave, I would love to use these two recent posts to explain to others what zaorr is all about. I must admit, it is rather sublime.

I want to start with the image you posted of a smurf, because - like Tarantino's films - your discourse is often characterized by a-chronology. The smurf's teasing pose, with his tongue stuck out, is only a red herring for it's true signifier (this is substantiated by the image of what I believe is Sherlock Holmes and Dr. Watson, inviting other forumites to "investigate" your posts). As I said, the pose is only a red herring, a distraction - it is really a crucifixion pose, referring to Jesus Christ. The meaning is further strengthened by the fact that it is a smurf - the very race of beings who were so unjustly wronged in a recent South Park episode, and a race who, like CA, exists within its own bubble of awesomeness.

To draw parallels to CA, the site itself may also have been unjustly wronged recently, but like Jesus at the time of his crucifixion, it is also soon to be reborn. This conclusion of mine is further strengthened by one of your previous posts in the thread, in which you exclaim "Ali-Andro Ali-Andro, .... Ali-Ali Andro!!" (note three repetitions, representing the holy trinity of Manley, Hatala and Coro). I once knew two pet rabbits of a friend of mine, one called Ally and the other Andre, and this undoubted reference to them also invokes reference to the ritual of Easter, again symbolizing rebirth.

The image of Sherlock and and Watson is also an interesting choice, as the negative space between their heads echoes the negative space between the legs of the smurf. This suggests that from the groin of CA new things will be born, the intelligence and wit of which will be comparable to Sherlock Holmes himself.

Lastly I want to draw attention to the bolded part of the first quote:

"Even though someone's specialness can make their work priceless, others might find the behaviour hard to grasp."

Sir, you no longer need to drop hints for the recognition you crave. Others may find your behaviour difficult to grasp, but I see the masterful way in which you anticipated the flow of events and foreshadowed - even warned - other members. I get's [sic] you; I, sir, see the priceless work you do on these forums.

Thank you.

[Angel Intheuk]

I like the new look, and I think it's good to have the challenges and wip forums etc advertised more prominently on the front page.

When I first joined i was so lost on this site, I gotta admit I was intimidated at first as the only thing I'd seen was the galleries at the top and didn't want to stick my neck out and be critiqued until I had found my feet. At first I thought that the galleries at the top were what everyone got, I didn't know that they were only awarded to people who had contributed and helped with the site (is that the case?) and I guess I was a little dissapointed that the site wasn't laid out in a more professional format like an easy gallery app. for finished work. Now I know there is the Portfolio and Finally Finished forum I don't mind but redesigning the layout to be more user friendly will help newcomers to understand how this site works a bit better.

Also is there a thread for help on how to critique people? I try and contribute what I can but alot of the time I worry I'm just giving my opinion and then I think "Well isn't that all critique is?" and then I worry that I'm not qualified enough and why would people listen to me, I know what I'm talking about with some techniques but alooot of stuff I know just bits about, even as I write this i'm wondering if it's at all helpful to this discussion but I wanted to say my piece. I guess it's all a matter of confidence and this site should stand by the shy ones who don't post as much crits and just want to read other peoples advice and learn that way.

[ryan mcshane]

so, is Ca changing to OBM? i dont understand ;__;

[Arshes Nei]

(Oh and a PS here- I noticed Arshes little sketchbook icon got onto my notes up there without my acting... but a interesting little note of no concern I think there was something in the user cp that had a sketchbook line somewhere... its been a minute.)

Yes, in your user CP there is a Sketchbook field. I could have had it where you would only enter the thread ID but if there upgrades it may not use the same tag ID. I've seen vbulletin 4 (not saying if CA 4.0 is using it).

That's why you have the icon on the right of your postbit/aka user id.

I definitely want to redo the Hardware/Software forums, but my main problem is that there is way too much scroll, so definitely have to re-organize the forums. The webmistress in me hates scroll. We should be able to see what's new first. But Manley posted screenshots of 4.0 so we'll have to see.

[Flashback]

Let them change the name.

The concept of the leaderboard should go because probably going to be the same people at the top of the leaderboard over and over.

Just like the "Star-system," it's probably due to the nature of the site, the site being for trained artist or artists training in the field.

[furiana]

I'm just afraid that this will turn into yet another social networking site. I have no use for that.

Guess I ought to go give a critique, now.

EDIT: And while I was there, I noticed a lot of activity. Maybe people are taking the comments in this thread to heart?

[vineris]

As for critique, well, the reason I don't critique often is because I'm just not good at it. If I ever get as good as it as Algen or Jana, I would critique the fuck out of everything.

Apply that reasoning to drawing and you'll see the flaws in it:
"I don't draw often because I'm just not good at it. If I get as good at it as a great artist I'll draw lots!"

All you have to do is start out with a bit of knowledge. Crit the pieces to which this bit of knowledge applies. If you're wrong, someone will let you know and you'll have learned something. If you're right you'll have done something helpful for someone else. As you read through the critiques other people give you'll acquire more bits of knowledge, learn more and be able to critique more.

There's always more people wanting help than people giving help and it's easy to get overwhelmed and burned out on helping the endless stream of people. If newer people don't pick up the slack, the rate of crits falls off. So if you want to see more crits, then you really just have to go for it.

[Burhtun]

Learning to critique others teaches you how to critique yourself.

[DefiledVisions]

Yesterday I was looking at this thread early in the morning, a bit worried because I'd been hearing of people leaving the site and stuff going on behind the curtains. As I read on things cleared up a bit, I later turned to my sketchbook and wrote a small sentimental speech on spur of the moment.

I'd like to share it with you! in it's un-edited glory (oh and don't forget the thanks... joke )

Hey guys, it's like 4.23 in the morning, my eyes hurt, my brain is pounding, somewhere outside beautiful avian creatures call out for love.
Writing up this to just thank you all for being a part of CA. I mean, lol, alright, I'm being all sentimental now.. lack of sleep does that, though these words are genuine.

I've never really noticed the drama that's been going on here on CA. I never spent time in the lounge, quite boring over there actually. I've always found the sb section most fun to look at and participate in, with all these awesome people sharing their knowledge and advancing! there is nothing cooler than to see someone's work from like 3 years back and check out his up-to-date work. It warms my heart to see that it's possible to get good at art as long as you stick with it and enjoy it.. and hey, you're not alone, never will be. I learned that when I first joined in on this party. It's been an awesome ride, and it's not going to ender here. I want to keep riding this artsy awesomeonessss together with all of you.

Anyhow, what I am trying to say is that if it wasn't for CA I'd probably live a rather miserable life.. I was so lost during the point I found CA.. ending my second year at highschool, no where to go, no thoughts regarding the future at all. Just a huge questionmark.

This place gave me purpose, this place gave me joy, through this site I've had the possibility, and privilege, to talk with some of the greatest people I've ever talked with. I've found people who share my passion for art, I've seen great art take place infront of my eyes, I've felt it. It's almost as the art here is living and breathing through these pixels and bits of information.
The energy and dedication that is put into these sketchbooks from everyone here on CA is real, and it's so fucking unbelieavble to be part of it.
It's so mighty.. damn, It's such a great feeling.

and haha, woa I'm gonna have fun reading this when I wake up, though, even though I might blush a bit and say "oh did I really write that? hehe" I'm not going to take back a single word.

ConceptArt for me is the best thing that's happened, and I want it to stay that way. People are leaving the forums I hear, I wish them well, and we'll definitely be seeing each other on other art platforms such as CGHub and god knows where, though I want to stay here. This is where I started out and I feel I'm nowhere close to leaving this. Lets make this the place we want it to be, where art is the focus and wher we all live and breathe our passion.

Do what you love and Love what you do, Lots of love from the crazy swede (stfu metal fingers ) .. gotta catch em all
and no I am not drunk, maybe a bit taken by the moment, kinda standing in awe, proud over how honest I turned out to be in what I just wrote. Take care friends!

[Armonah]

Apply that reasoning to drawing and you'll see the flaws in it:
"I don't draw often because I'm just not good at it. If I get as good at it as a great artist I'll draw lots!"

All you have to do is start out with a bit of knowledge. Crit the pieces to which this bit of knowledge applies. If you're wrong, someone will let you know and you'll have learned something. If you're right you'll have done something helpful for someone else. As you read through the critiques other people give you'll acquire more bits of knowledge, learn more and be able to critique more.

There's always more people wanting help than people giving help and it's easy to get overwhelmed and burned out on helping the endless stream of people. If newer people don't pick up the slack, the rate of crits falls off. So if you want to see more crits, then you really just have to go for it.

Well I'll be damned. That makes an awful lot of sense, sir.

[Kfeeras]

that dobsky perspective help post in the middle of the thread made my day.

[hunchback]

i definately like the new look, its much cleaner, more involving and i really dig the idea of collaboration. What im worried about is that it looks very much like cghub right now you know what i mean?

my five cents. (whoops guess thats a nickleback O_O)

......

[QueenGwenevere]

I've been avoiding all this because I honestly don't know enough about what was causing all the fuss... But as long as we're onto constructive comments now, I had a couple of thoughts...

As for the site changing from "the good old days", I'm afraid that's inevitable. Time goes by, sites grow, old members leave or no longer have time for the site, new members come in. But if you're worried about a drop in the amount and quality of crits and helpful advice, there may be ways to remedy it.

First, do your part! If you're worried about lack of crits, get out there and crit! Maybe hunt for the less popular sketchbooks and show them some love. If you feel the lounge is a waste of time (okay, it is,) stay out of the lounge! The more individuals try to make this place better, the better it will get.

Second, might there be some way to bump up sketchbooks that are in dire need of crits? Maybe have a sub-group of sketchbooks for "desperately in need of crits"? People could flag their book as "desperately in need" and as long as it gets regularly updated, it goes into that area, or something. Or automatically bump up SBs that are getting regular updates but very few posts by anyone other than the OP.

At any rate, it would be nice to have some better way to sort through sketchbooks - there's so many, a lot of them are bound to get lost in the shuffle. I don't even look in there much, because it's too overwhelming. I'm not sure what would be the best way, but maybe at least separate active/dormant, beginners/experienced, desperately seeking crit/just posting for the heck of it... or something.

Maybe if Sketchbook Groups were more formalized and better organized, too, to make it easy to start or join a group. Someone back there mentioned being able to flag your profile with "Looking for a sketchbook group", that would be good. Maybe also have an area on the site where you can find all the sketchbook groups, and have a way for groups to indicate whether they'd be willing to take in more participants? Or have a way to find all members who are looking to join a group?

Oh, and yes, whoever said there should be a "Guide to Critique" - YES. Good idea. You'd be amazed how many people are afraid to critique because they think they don't know how. It should probably also include a few tips on "how to take critique"...

[Android]

hello conceptart.org 90210,

theres has certainly been allot of communication and discussion on the past few days, I understand that many people are confused and have questions, and many of your questions will go unanswered, Ive been waiting on full disclosure on Aliens and UFOs for years and I'm still holding my breath.

I have been on these boards from day zero, and allot has happened here, within this community I have MADE best friends, lost friends , and fallen in love. On a creative level this community has been a focal point that has helped me find my visual voice, it has guided my entire career and its encouragement and feedback have played an inseparable role in my path and i know that I'm an not alone in that experience. ….sometimes i find it annoying pointless and immature then i ignore it for a while. regardless of what it was or what it is , one thing is for certain is that everything changes, People change, the industry changes and relationships change over the years, and the more time goes by the more changes will occur.

being an artist, and maintaining relationships, and running or running away from a business are all challenging tasks on their own, and when you combine them together alongside the digital visibility of forums and social networks the equation becomes exponentially more difficult to balance. Add in the stress of just trying to make it in the insanity of modern culture and politics the potential can be toxic.

Ca has been shooting from the hip since day one, and over the years we have all made many mistakes, there are things i wish i could take back and do differently, but the beauty of mistakes is that you can learn from them. Some of the greatest success we may achieve will spring forth from our greatest failures.

I hope that we can all take this experience and learn from it, if we can we will become a stronger community, if we cant we can bring the lessons elsewhere, or repeat them again until we do learn.

Ill be the first to say that Jason can be a son of a bitch, I have known him longer than any of you have, and over the years he has caused me more frustration than possibly any other relationship i have had. I promise this wont be the last time he will piss you off , I could write a list of his shortcomings and I have on several occasions, but none of us are perfect beings, I agree that the editing and deleting of posts has to end, and that the issues that people bring to the table have valid points and need to be listened too and read with a critical eye. What separates most of us from Jason is that he makes his goals and his life so blatantly transparent its sometimes painful to watch as he peels himself open in front of us all. He cares so much about this site it literally drives him crazy. but in the end, beyond ego , fame or greed I believe that he is in this for the right reasons even if he makes the wrong decisions. And many of you are the direct or indirect benefactors of his insanity.

Everyone is responsible for knowing where their limits are, and we all have the right to our opinion, and the ability to express it. if you have had enough than please remember that participation here is optional and the Internet has an infinite amount of other sites to explore. I respect anyone's decision to take their energy elsewhere or to branch off and begin their own adventure .

As far as the T.A.D issue is concerned, I am in Kansas city now wrapping up the end of the 3 week program, I'm confidant that in time the results will speak for themselves, I can say that if you are serious about making art your true calling than NOW is the time you want to get on board with TAD, I can see that both the teachers and the students are committed to personal transformation and it will change your creative life for the better. there is an efficiency and directness built into the foundation of TAD that has revolutionary potential. The drama will fade and the wounds may heal but your education will last your entire lifetime.

If we zoom out a bit we can all see how ultimately trivial these issues really are, and its is a ridiculous privilege that we can can waste time losing ourselves in the drama . somewhere in the universe forests are burning, oceans are bleeding oil, people are starving, suns are exploding.

lets make Art and try to get along in the process while we still can.

[Farvus]

I think it could be "One Big Angry Mob" .

[JakehC]

I'm very happy this thread is turning into something positive.

i truly didn't think it would happen, but i hope that this positive direction truly continues that way we can get past hurt and pain and go on to better things. (inserts foot into mouth)

I personally am not caught up in this idea of trying to "recapture the past". I think it can be said for every area of life that the past is to be cherished and adored, but we should keep in mind that things evolve and change to accommodate new circumstances.

I know CA 5 years ago was this nostalgic experience for everyone. But we are not the same artists as 5 years ago, and the industry isn't the same. Because of our hard work and dedication here WE have all in ways contributed to the change in the industry and the internet world of art.

So lets look forward tot he future of what we can build instead of comparing to the past and trying to remake what was. Lets accommodate for the circumstance of our day, and use those things to promote proactive change.

And most of all lets just all learn to love each other, cause as gushy as it sounds we are one big family and we shouldn't let arguments, disagreements, ect. split a good thing up.

Love is greater and far better than hate.

[Two Listen]

Nice post Andrew.

It made me happy to read this especially:

Everyone is responsible for knowing where their limits are, and we all have the right to our opinion, and the ability to express it. if you have had enough than please remember that participation here is optional and the Internet has an infinite amount of other sites to explore. I respect anyone's decision to take their energy elsewhere or to branch off and begin their own adventure.

I took leave of CA.org myself a few months ago. Sure there were a variety of reasons, but really the main thing of it was, I just looked at my life and myself and figured that it was time for me to take a break and focus inwardly. I haven't posted in months and only rarely come back to take a peek at the Cheer me up thread at work.

It's turning out well. I'm making a lot of progress and defining a lot of things about myself and my art I wouldn't have been able to do if I'd been an active member of this community, it's simply too much a distraction for me sometimes.

And there's nothing wrong with that. Everyone, truly, we should act upon what is best for ourselves. For some people that's becoming an active participant in the going-ons of CA, or CGhub. For me, I decided it was stepping far away from these things, focusing on myself and my wife. I intend on eventually moving out into the country, to live in a cozy house with my wife and our pets. So far away from people that looking in any direction from our house, you cannot see another house or another person. Sustaining ourselves, essentially, on being really really badass.

I couldn't do that focusing on things here, or participating in so much. I needed to step back and really direct my attentions appropriately in order to succeed.

Hopefully we can realize that, at least from my point of view, that's a lot similar to what's going on here as a whole. People "leaving", really, people just doing what they need to do.

Cheers to all.

[Jason Manley]

No CA is not becoming OBM. OBM is like a central hub for all the stuff. It is a different site. You will actually not even see it for now. The arts portion of the site will be called TheArtMobs. ConceptArt.Org will still exist and this forums will look as it does. It just has deeper stuff if you want it.

Imagine this...change the logo at the top to ConceptArt.Org and imagine only the concept art related works showing up on that main page. Click and change to Sketchmob and watch the best sketchbook forums (those right here on CA) on the internet all have their own main page for once. Those artists deserve their own main page too. Does that make sense? Also, click on a users name and see their basic profile here now. This site already has profiles. It used to have a lot of the myspace features too, and we pulled that clunky system out. The forums here are going to work much the same. We are just opening up and adding some new wings onto this crowded house. We have to have room to grow and the new system incorporates four years of my ideas and a host from others like Jackie Oh and Andrew too.

Someday...someday...I will show you what this is reallly a part of. Andrew and I have a secret secret secret project that we dream about and have been working on this past year. For now it will be the most versatile and in depth artist promotional tool, critique tool, bomb your social networks, bomb your blogs, and control your art universe tool on the internet. There are elements from CGh yes. But CGh also has many many elements from CA, including scent of our database structure, our users they paid to set up over there, forums structure...you name it. However, there are also all the features of carbonmade, many features from things like OKCupid, Facebook, and free to play online games...even the viral goodies needed to be sure your work gets out to the world. You already have profiles. We already have a main page. This just replaces that and gives you your own ability to make clean beautiful portfolios for work, and gives you ways to get that work out into the world like no other site out there. If you just want to participate on the forums, so be it. You can do that. I can tell you that the ConceptArt forums will look just as they do now, but when you click into them the rabbit hole opens up and there are a whole new range of possibilities. Use them or not. The choice is yours. It's all free to use as you wish (within the guidelines of the community of course).

The new critique tools I am dealing with are mind blowing compared to what we have right now. Those I have not yet shown as there are still negotiations happening....but I am working on it and I want them in this site. mmmmm The good stuff.


Jason

[Ilaekae]

...I'm just sitting here...still waiting for my bus...



...you wanna do something constructive, fuck drawing. Just clean up public trans in Pittsburgh...

[Craig D]

..
...you wanna do something constructive Just clean up public toilets in Pittsburgh...

Wasn't that how you hurt your arm??