Support South Park! Support Trey and Matt!

[s.ketch]

ding ding ding ding ding. Its one thing to draw Mohammed not knowing their religious law, it's another to purposely draw him with the intent of going against their law, knowing it might offend them. All whilst saying this law "does not concern you"... well for a law that doesn't mean anything to you, you're sure interested in breaking it. This thread is even dedicating a whole day to it. Some of you ought to act your age. This being offensive just to piss off the ol' cranky neighbor is kids stuff.

South Park may be "smart" to some of you, but they do get their ratings by being purposely offensive.

I can't stand Southpark or it's fans. It's just as unfunny as Family Guy.

Reading is fundamental. But you're right, I mean how could an art related superstition have anything to do with artists? Those cranky Ol' Muslims always keeping my football when I accidentally throw it too far and it lands in their yard. Always telling me to stay off their grass. Yelling about kids today and their fancy drawings of prophets who shan't be drawn. I'll show them what for by being a rebellious teenager and expressing my rights. That'll teach them to be cranky. I would just ring their door bell and run away before they answer but I ain't going on their porch. That kind of stuff is for those weird Canadians across the street.

And I like how you took once sentence and ignored everything else I have said in this thread. That's a Pulitzer prize winning journalism technique over at Fox News.

[Brendan N]

This idea is childish. It's the political equivalent of going "oh yeah?!"

On the flipside, please don't expect me to "respect" your religion. Respect isn't something I can magically conjure up and feel very deeply. It's a bit like believing. You can't force it. I'll tolerate your religion insofar as it has nothing to do with me.

Now if I want to draw pictures Mohammed - dsigusting or not - or write a parody calling him Mahound and claiming he made a deal with Shaitan, I will. But there are better things to do with my time than just proving a point to the otherwise certifiable.

This is, as far as I'm concerned, a non-argument.

[squidmonk3j]

People should not be pursued for their beliefs, but people's beliefs should be fair game. It's fair enough that particular religious rules are observed and obeyed within the particular religions, but it is unfair to demand that nonbelievers should adhere to these rules. If you believe that it is amoral and wrong to depict the prophet, you should be free to abstain from doing so. But if you at the same time demand that others be coerced into your way of thinking, this effectively negates the rights of your own freedom of belief.

You can't have it both ways. People are either equal, or at war.

[Bai Fan]

Yes, if you eat your pork, continue eating your pork. If you blaspheme, continue blaspheming. If you have been drawing Mohammad, continue drawing him. Don't let them stop you from what you were doing, but you are going out of your way to insult people by doing something you wouldn't normally have done in the name of some faceless and meaningless message. You are not going to prove anything with this weak and spineless insult.

Someone said that this was to show the rest of the world that America is free and will not be threatened into silence. That America is not afraid... then they whine about how if they put their info on the piece they might get hurt. NO SHIT! That is the point. Not being afraid means that you are not afraid of their threats of violence. It means that your voice is more valuable than your well being. Hiding in the shadows proves no point, it sends no message of strength or American bravery (sorry to non-Americans in the conversion). It is hollow, and hurtful. That is why I was so intrigued by the notion of signing the work. I believe that would be quite a strong, possibly powerful protest, and a very brave message.

I guess another thing that separates me from some of the posters in this topic would be that Matt Stone and Trey Parker do not speak for me. I like South Park for what it is, sometimes "a very smart show disguised as a fart and toilet humor show" and sometimes a fart and toilet humor show disguised as a very smart show... but I have my own voice and my own opinion and I do agree with what that Muslim said at revolutionmuslim or whatever the site was. If you continue to intentionally piss off the world, you will at some point piss off the wrong person and have to pay the consequences.

[Bai Fan]

People should not be pursued for their beliefs, but people's beliefs should be fair game. It's fair enough that particular religious rules are observed and obeyed within the particular religions, but it is unfair to demand that nonbelievers should adhere to these rules. If you believe that it is amoral and wrong to depict the prophet, you should be free to abstain from doing so. But if you at the same time demand that others be coerced into your way of thinking, this effectively negates the rights of your own freedom of belief.

You can't have it both ways. People are either equal, or at war.

Thanks for mentioning that... I guess that is something that I am not getting across. I am not trying to stop anyone from doing this. I am trying to express my opinion as to why I think...

1. It is unnecessary because I believe that the whole thing is blown out of proportion by the media and the ignorant. Many of the people promoting this in the beginning really didn't seem to have a clue as to what was going on and were just jumping on the bandwagon. I mean one of the posters here was blaming the creator of the website instead of the poster of the alleged threat.

2. The message how it is is meaningless, hurtful and cowardly. I am all for freedom of speech, and human rights... but what is the point of a meaningless protest. It seemed like many of the people who were interested in it just wanted to be a part of something.

and 3. To try to promote understanding and tolerance so that this kind of thing doesn't happen. I have said it in the past and I will say it again... Just because you have the right to say something doesn't mean that you should. I am not sure it pertains, but I love the quote from Shrek, "Donkey, you DO have the right to remain silent... what you lack is the ability". I am just hoping that since America has its freedom we would use it and strive to be better, kinder and moral rather than ignorant, hateful and selfish.

I would like to also say that over the past couple pages the posts in this topic, for the most part, have proven to be better articulated, better informed and have seemed to be more willing to have a discussion than in the beginning and I wanted to thank you guys for that. There really is no way to continue a conversation with "Go sand your penis off". Although I might not agree with all your opinions, I respect them for what they are.

[squidmonk3j]

Yeah, internet debate can be difficult.

To paraphrase the reverend MJK: Distance has a tendency to atrophy any sense of compassion

...and I find it helpful to always keep these words of Plato(?) in mind:

"Be kind, for everyone you meet is fighting a hard battle."

Carry on

[nauvice]

So... if I said..I'm jewish...

I think eating pork is dirty... and pork in grocery stores or people putting it all over there food offends me....

Don't pretend that you didn't know that jews find eating pork against gods rules!

So... why are you still eating pork? Why is everyone still eating pork?

Is it just because we don't threaten to kill you? Do we need to start threatening people to make them follow what we think is right?

You can eat pork if you don't follow judaic laws, but would you eat pork obnoxiously right in front of a Jewish person and say "Ha ha! I'm eating pork! so good! nom nom nom!"

Im not defending those who've threatened or even killed artists who drew Mohammed, but because there are idiots like that, is that really a good reason to act like an idiot yourself, and draw mohammed for the sole purpose of being obnoxious? This thread isn't just asking you to draw Mohammed for yourself, it's asking you to show off to Muslims that you have the power to do so, just like you'd eat pork purposely right in front of a Jewish person's face.

It isn't the act of drawing him I'm arguing against, but the reason behind it.

[s.ketch]

3. To try to promote understanding and tolerance so that this kind of thing doesn't happen. I have said it in the past and I will say it again... Just because you have the right to say something doesn't mean that you should. I am not sure it pertains, but I love the quote from Shrek, "Donkey, you DO have the right to remain silent... what you lack is the ability". I am just hoping that since America has its freedom we would use it and strive to be better, kinder and moral rather than ignorant, hateful and selfish.

This is where we're butting heads imo. I can't really understand why drawing Muhammad on that day, or any day is equated with being ignorant, hateful and selfish. If I choose to do it on the 20th it's definitely not because I don't understand that not every Muslim is a radical or because I hate Islam or because I think I'm entitled do to whatever I please. I mean maybe I keep misunderstanding what you're saying. Just because I have the right to say something doesn't mean I shouldn't. I with there was a more recent yet identical issue with another religion and art that I could bring up. If anything I could bring up the censorship of nudity. It offends people, some might even claim it's damaging, and we could have the exact same argument over it. I don't go out and draw boobs on everything to express my rights but I'm also not gong to avoid posting nudes online or in a gallery because it offends moral conservatives either just to be a nice guy.

I think supporters of the idea are being poorly represented and made out to be something they're not. I seriously doubt anyone here would do it because they're racist radical members of an opposing faith who just wants to cause trouble.

[Brendan N]

I think supporters of the idea are being poorly represented and made out to be something they're not. I seriously doubt anyone here would do it because they're racist radical members of an opposing faith who just wants to cause trouble.

This is why I feel it is such an unsophisticated and childish "protest." If anything, the only thing its supporters would be guilty of is minor immaturity.

Other than that, I really don't see a problem with "Draw Mohammed Day" or its subscribers.

[jac-k]

Bai Fan, how do you feel about this hypothetical situation?

Let's say that in a college classroom there is an art assignment involving mythology. Most people I would assume would depict Greek gods and goddesses and their worlds. Let's say I wanted to reinterpret all the different representatives across many religions (which would be pretty awesome btw), and I decided to include Muhammad. I would be drawing him purely out of my own interest without any ill intentions, along with many other gods. Let's say that there are a couple of strict Muslims in my class, and when I showed my sketches, they pointed out that it offends them and I should not further pursue drawing Muhammad because it is against their religion.

As the teacher, would you allow the student to continue drawing Muhammad? S/he's not doing it to smear their religion but to artistically explore it.

[George Abraham]

Muslims are not the way you make them out to be in here, they are the same as anyone in here. I get tired of people looking down at the rest of the word, getting offended over concepts like respect. Tollerating, geee, the rest of the world are expected to tollerate you, do you think tolleration applies to you allone?

Respect does not mean you have to believe, simply to allow it it's own space. You do what you do and I do what I do but don't run your lawnmower over my garden or you might get a whooping.

A muslim would understand what you are doing untill you whip out the toddler whives an d all theat obvious crap.

There have been material and movies about Mohammed for decades now, helloooo, they didn't complain about those. Muslims don't live in a hole somewhere, if you want to take them on, build your own cricket team and try your luck. Try sports that the rest of the world is playing then you might get a reality check.

The tonality wherein muslims are referred to here sounds really racist and looking at them in less than shitty ways.

This is my last post in any pollitical thread. It's a waste of energy.

This is not a "Muslims openly attacked western values and views" thread, the west is not upholding their own values. You guy's have a way to make things sound like the complete opposite.

You can't have freedome that's one sided, it doesn't work that way. The moment you give everyone freedome you have respect in between. You have to respect someone elses right to freedome and freedome means space. Don't go invade other's space and violate their freedome to claim to have more freedome than others, that's bullshiat.

[Bai Fan]

I was along with you until the end. As a teacher, no... I would have to stop the drawings because if I am representing the school I have to uphold to their rules and anything that would be held offensive to any students religious beliefs tends to be forbidden.

If I was not a teacher, but another student, I would say if you feel you need to continue with it, go for it, but try to handle it in a way that takes the Muslim students into consideration. Hypothetically speaking, maybe if you show some respect and understanding for their religion, they might show some respect and understanding for yours (or your lack of religion) and possibly meet somewhere in the middle. I am all for creating art out of a need to create, but not so much out of spite.

[Ivory_Oasis]

I am all for creating art out of a need to create, but not so much out of spite.

Art can also be used to express ideas and feelings...it can be rich in meaning.

Drawing this religious character is a way of doing that. The drawings aren't about artistic quality, they aren't about a need to create... they are artists speaking out in the way they know best.

I think art of this type can actually say a great deal about the societal environment we find ourselves in now or the feelings towards certain groups and their reactions / belief systems.

Art has never just been about "making people feel good", it has actually often been used to express a culturally relevant opinion. For people to engage in this event, they are simply what has been done so many times before (and in this case, one theme they are expressing is that of defiance to intimidation).

Try to think of it as a historical perspective. 100 years from now, it is very possible that works of art on this subject will be looked at not only in relation to this one event with muslims and a couple fringe groups... but easily related to terrorism in general.

Maybe 10 years ago the idea to protest the censorship of south park would have gone by without much event... but given the current state of our society, people are eager to "fight back" against terrorist (and, for many, those who kill and threaten in the name of muslim belief are no different than the ones we have been fighting).

So ... yea... people could just ignore it... but I think some people have something to say and this just happens to be the medium in which they have chosen. (if it will actually continue through or not and what actual artwork will be produced is another question all together).

[sharprm]

I believe in hamburgers.

[nauvice]

Oh I think I get it now. So its not so much to show off that you can break a rule you don't abide by, but more of a progressive movement to change a strict and dogmatic ideology? I'm guessing that may have also been South Park's intent.

But even so I don't see it going far since its being done by "outsiders". It would make more sense if it were Muslims who were trying to reform their own strict rule.

For example, Europeans congratulated Obama for this healthcare bill, but the Right uses that against him to show that Socialists are destroying America. Well, I could see how conservative Muslims might feel like Non-Muslims are only making a farce of their religion.

I mean the West have been trying to help Muslim women for years now, but they will always remain second-class if they themselves don't protest. (*in some countries, not all muslim countries are like that)

[Brendan N]

Muslims are not the way you make them out to be in here, they are the same as anyone in here. I get tired of people looking down at the rest of the word, getting offended over concepts like respect. Tollerating, geee, the rest of the world are expected to tollerate you, do you think tolleration applies to you allone?

Respect does not mean you have to believe, simply to allow it it's own space. You do what you do and I do what I do but don't run your lawnmower over my garden or you might get a whooping.

A muslim would understand what you are doing untill you whip out the toddler whives an d all theat obvious crap.

There have been material and movies about Mohammed for decades now, helloooo, they didn't complain about those. Muslims don't live in a hole somewhere, if you want to take them on, build your own cricket team and try your luck. Try sports that the rest of the world is playing then you might get a reality check.

The tonality wherein muslims are referred to here sounds really racist and looking at them in less than shitty ways.

This is my last post in any pollitical thread. It's a waste of energy.

This is not a "Muslims openly attacked western values and views" thread, the west is not upholding their own values. You guy's have a way to make things sound like the complete opposite.

You can't have freedome that's one sided, it doesn't work that way. The moment you give everyone freedome you have respect in between. You have to respect someone elses right to freedome and freedome means space. Don't go invade other's space and violate their freedome to claim to have more freedome than others, that's bullshiat.

I can't understand what you're saying. I've read and re-read this post. It makes no sense. Whatsoever.

[Elam]

haha. Zaorr never makes sense.

I personally would love to see a kick ass Gladiator style movie featuring Muhammed conquering everything.

I mean, I can't get enough of Roman dramas.

Muslims are shooting themselves in the foot on this one.

[jac-k]

I was along with you until the end. As a teacher, no... I would have to stop the drawings because if I am representing the school I have to uphold to their rules and anything that would be held offensive to any students religious beliefs tends to be forbidden.

If I was not a teacher, but another student, I would say if you feel you need to continue with it, go for it, but try to handle it in a way that takes the Muslim students into consideration. Hypothetically speaking, maybe if you show some respect and understanding for their religion, they might show some respect and understanding for yours (or your lack of religion) and possibly meet somewhere in the middle. I am all for creating art out of a need to create, but not so much out of spite.

For this situation, let's just say that I was depicting Muhammad benevolently; he is helping some kids set in a futuristic era.

How do propose that we somehow meet in the middle? The way I see it, there can be no middle ground because their belief (if they follow the particular one) strictly states that Muhammad cannot be depicted in a visual form under any circumstances. If the teacher allows me to draw it on my own time, there is only compromise with the teacher, not with the other students. I would still be disrespecting them.

To be honest, if this actually happened in school, administrators would probably censor the student's work because this would disrupt the "educational environment". Or not.

[Fuzziest Johnson]

A muslim would understand what you are doing untill you whip out the toddler whives an d all theat obvious crap.

whip out the toddler whives and a model T car....and a spaceship

[Fuzziest Johnson]

Jac-k, nice analogy...well not even an analogy... I wish we lived in a world where the school would say "I'm sorry if that offends you, but he only drew Mohammad, no ones life was put in danger, so he has the right to draw Mohammad if he likes."

[Slash]

I find it interesting that THIS is the way a lot of people wanna "fight" for their rights...

[Bai Fan]

Sharp - if you ditch the glasses and lose the cool little flippy thing in the front of the hair it will look more like me. I also don't like chocolate. I think you are really missing the point. The little girl is not trying to make a statement that she will not back down in the face of terrorism and threats of violence... you are. Since you are not threatened, and since you would face no possible repercussion your message would be meaningless.

I am all for free speech. Notice how I never said anything about Matt and Trey's work other than I really do believe them to be equal opportunity malicious bullies capitalizing off stoners? I have not protested their work over the last 14 years. I believe that sometimes they make good points, sometimes not... but they are stupid to if they think they can keep bullying people without someone standing up for themselves.

[sharprm]

I get it right for the next one .

Sharp - if you ditch the glasses and lose the cool little flippy thing in the front of the hair it will look more like me. I also don't like chocolate. I think you are really missing the point. The little girl is not trying to make a statement that she will not back down in the face of terrorism and threats of violence... you are. Since you are not threatened, and since you would face no possible repercussion your message would be meaningless.

Instead of being so vague, why don't you quote me where I actually said "I will not back down from a threat of violence" because I don't remember saying that. In fact, while you say:

That is why I was so intrigued by the notion of signing the work. I believe that would be quite a strong, possibly powerful protest, and a very brave message.

I remember you demanding I post up to date mailing info so it is easy for people to send mail bombs, not just signing it.

I can see why people could think signing it is a good idea. Because the original idea was to have a large number of people as potential targets, so matt and trey aren't left out to dry. There could be ways to facilitate this, like a website where you send your accurate contact information, and they only release that information if say they get more than 10,000 addresses. But even still that isn't going to stop people from bombing a random selection of those many addresses. Intimidating people with violence only requires you to kill a small number, not every person.

Posting catoons without your address is meaningful. The cartoons each will have a meaning. It also demonstrates people who use the threat of violence didn’t get their way. Your unreasonable insistence that everyone should be prepared to be a matyr or stfu is what the cartoon is about. We are not trying to teach Islamic extremists manners.

Good point about how it is easy to be brave when you are not directly threatened (and even easier to be a coward when you are not directly threatened!)

All I ever said is that even though it is easy to stand up for your rights when it doesn’t cost you anything, it is even easier to not believe in anything when it doesn’t cost you anything. Because you are a nihilist Bai Fan, if you believe every viewpoint and idea is equally valid, then you believe in nothing. Which begs the question why you are taking part in a debate.

Your voice and ideas are no more valid than theirs, just as mine is no more valid than yours.

[wardes]

Theres different ways of protesting something you dont abide to. With humour , with a childish retailation, with more violence, lighting up with a bonzo in public, clandestine publications and radios, graffitti, hunger strikes etc. To say that the only way to validate whatever i choose to do about something i dont agree with , is to risk beeing killed by lunatics, doesn´t make sense to me. I know what it´s like to have a gun at my head and it doesnt feel good, so i wont go looking for it.If an extreme situation should arise, then i hope i rise to the ocation, but in the meantime i dont like extremism. And i dont like some religion to impose their violent ideas violently.

[gjpetch]

It would make more sense if it were Muslims who were trying to reform their own strict rule.

Not sure, perhaps they might find that difficult, given that the mainstream Islamic law punishment (not just the fringe extremist) for apostasy is death.

Just want to say I appreciate this conversation, zwarrior made some points that gave me pause for thought, which is always a good thing. I just feel that sharing ideas leads to an improved understanding of the world for everyone, however silencing critical viewpoints through violence and threats (and indeed through the threat of unending, infinite torture for eternity once you die) just inhibits the growth of knowledge, and consequently inhibits the well-being of humanity at large. Trying to minimise offense is a noble cause, however supporting oppression through our action or inaction is pretty frigging ignoble.

know when and how to pick your fights. You can stand up to a bully without acting like one.

What would be a preferable way to voice criticism of extremists than this cartoon idea? I don't mean that as a rhetorical question, I'd really like to know.

[velderia]

I think Trey and Matt can help themselves. I don't think they need other people drawing for them. Do what you want, but I personally feel that all of that drawing energy could be used for something more productive and meaningful.

And it's not even like all Muslims were insulted by that episode, just the extreme ones. I'm sure there's plenty of Bible-humpers that would kill if they saw someone mocking Jesus... KKK, anyone? Remember that abortion clinic doctor guy that got killed just because of his profession? It's almost like Muslims are the last group of people you need to be afraid of. The world is full of dangerous, violent people. Don't piss in your pants just because you feel threatened by a particular easy-to-hate group.

[Kamber Parrk]

It's pretty much a moot point when the cartoonist who started the whole May 20 "Draw Mohammed Day" craps out and recants.

But, in the U.S., the Christmas "Underpants Bomber" is about as effective as Islamo-fascism has been in attacking Americans since 9/11. (Except maybe that loony Army psychiatrist that shot up Fort Hood.) There's really little danger in this country. Had the Seattle cartoonist stood firm on the point, here, in the U.S., it would have been more of a statement against overly touchy-feely corporate political correctness. [You know, the kind of have-your-cake-and-eat-it-too type of dealing that keeps the oil companies from having any gay or female employees deal directly with the Saudis.]

But, the bearded James Mason of "Captain Nemo" will make a great figure to portray Mohammed ridding the Kabba of the idols!

[Pigeonkill]

Since you are not threatened, and since you would face no possible repercussion your message would be meaningless.

I know this is directed to Sharprm...

But why would words be meaningless if the speaker isn't on the receiving end of violence? That would be some odd prerequisite. I think the irony is that the "threats/warning" caused a backlash hence May 20 "Draw Mohammed Day."

[George Abraham]

I can't understand what you're saying. I've read and re-read this post. It makes no sense. Whatsoever.

Basically, the majority logic is not consequent but emotional and ill formed.

It reeks of non equality and sounds the same as if you have been sitting in a KKK convention. Or a typical southpark version of an american speech, it's basically an illogical babble with deep emotional movie soundtracks, and a dude going, YEAH!! every few seconds.


Strategy is to focus on the effect you are getting, not what you are ideally trying to do, most of the time polotical powers is lying through their ass when they are telling you what they are ideally trying to do but the effect of what they are doing is well targeted and their true intentions are met. This might be politics in general and not neccecarily American politics. I don't for one moment think that politics is in the dark ages when it comes to linquistics, NLP and crowd psycholgy and all that stuff. They are well in the know on what they are doing. It might not be their intentions, it might just be coincidence or the way things are panning out.

That's why the bible is going on about the numbers of "stuff" because the names(id-ology) are not relliable. What that is saying is. Know things by their "bahaviour" numerology was a study on behaviour but you don't need that, all you need to know is to look for "behaviour". If it smells like shit and it feels like shit and it looks like shit it must be shit.


If you are telling me that you are doing X. Let's look at the result of what you have done. Your ideological take on what's happening are not going to make what you are trying more effective.

[artmessiah]

I'm sure everyone here knows that the threat against south park was by TWO New York idiots who facade themselves as an "islamist group" of many - right? It wasn't Muslims (meaning a whole community) but just two muslims that had absolutely nothing better to do with their time other than threaten my fellow animator type amigos with a warning over a friggin cartoon. The stupidity of it all makes me chuckle. There are lots of paintings of Muhammad, a few comics about Muhammad and some book covers featuring a depiction of Muhammad. I understand why images of the prophets (all prophets, including Jesus) must be abstained which it to prevent idolatry, but all the muslims tripping off a cartoon need to go in the house and stay there. I don't agree with this premise of draw Muhammad day - what's the point? But, have at it, hopefully some positivity will come out of it (which I doubt).