XTIN - The Dragon's Dream World (comic)

[Jack the R]

I've got my painting built up to where it's not terribly offensive for the average non-painter, but there's lots of room for improvement here.

I'm primarily interested in getting my colors/lighting working better. There are other problems, but that's the one I'd like to focus on.

Anyway, here's what I've got -





I did a couple pages in 3D, but people don't like 3D in comics so I'll have to paint these later. I'm including them here in case anyone wants to follow the story.

The female model is by Dr. Wong Hua, with some minor changes and texturing by myself.

[JeffX99]

Pretty interesting - not sure I can offer much - partly because the whole mood of the work has a surreal tone making it hard to critique. The one thing that might help
some pieces (cover and gray scene with attendants) is a little more focus or tighter rendering where you want to draw the eye. Anyway - good job!

[Jack the R]

I can go for surreal as long as it's easy on the eyes and people can tell what's going on.

Both the pages you mentioned will be replaced.

[Jack the R]

Pg 8 WIP. Working on the last 3 panels tonight. They ended up a little straight on. So are the first 3 panels. I'll try to knock it out of those at least.

I discovered there's a small block brush in GIMP Paint Studio so maybe I can get off the round brushes I've been using. I've found that GIMP's brush scaling doesn't work too hot down at the low end of the size range.

Wish my colors were more interesting . . .

[Jack the R]

I figured out the original composition of the last two panels didn't fit with previous panels. I've reworked panel 5 and need to completely redo panel 6.

[Jack the R]

Three panels later . . .

I think I've pulled the colors up a little since the bottom panel. Looking forward to doing a better job on the last panel.

[Lhune]

I can't really read the text at all, unless I try really hard and look very closely. I don't know if that's supposed to happen.

It's a bit difficult for me to make out what's going on in the comic as well, but that might be because I'm not familiar with comics like these at all. I'm still trying to read it all though because there's something about it that makes you want to look further, like some dreaded fascination. I suppose that's a good thing.

[Jack the R]

It's the font. It has to be touched up by hand. I usually do this when the page is finished, and scaled down to web size.

I've also noticed GIMP chews up fonts extra bad when they're shrunk down.

It's an issue I'm still working on. GIMP is not the program to be lettering with, but I don't know of any Open Source program that's better.

On the writing, I tried to create an ambient environment that would be interesting enough to keep people reading while enough clues come together for it to make sense.

I'm interested in hearing what parts you've found confusing.

[Michaelsama]

Thought I'd stop and check your stuff out. Very interesting concepts. They look very original. I'm interested in entering the realm of comic work myself. It's cool that you have someone to do CG for you. What's the scope of this comic in terms of length? Full on production from inking to coloring might become very timely if you were to approach every page like this. I'm interested what your process is like though.

[Nezumi Works]

Is the hanging woman supposed to be human at all? She doesn't seem to have a pelvis, and her ribcage seems strangely tubular.

[Jack the R]

Michaelsama - I used to work as a 3D artist and did all of the 3D art, except for the female model which Dr. Hua did.

The creation myth segment will probably go a 110 pages or so. If the idea never becomes economically viable, they'll dribble out over decades. Let's hope it doesn't go that way.

I prefer the painting for this idea. I've manga and super hero style line art, but IMO each of those opens up its own bag of worms. Currently I'm too slow at painting, but maybe in a few months I won't be? I think it's worthwhile to stick it out. I've tried coordinating other artists before and I'd lose as much time communicating with them as I'd gain by going with a faster art style.

Good luck with comics. They're seem to be a few reasonably successful webcomic artists these days, if you can call being able to do your work and feed yourself success. I'd be happy enough with it although I wouldn't mind those millions either.

Nezumi Works - On the last page, or all of them? I can see that her hip anatomy is a off some on the last panels. I need to improve my anatomy for sure, but I think it's a lower priority than colors, lighting, and getting these pages out. I'll look at it again on pg 8 though.

[Nezumi Works]

All the ones where she's hanging upside down. The one in the "Sina Queen wants more" panel with a purple cast seems to be closer to human anatomy, although it also seems to be a different person. The one hanging from her feet has strange anatomy and proportions if she's intended to be human. If not, which is entirely possible here, then no problem.

Take a look at this comparison, it should be easy to pick out the anatomical differences.

[Jack the R]

A little more progress.

Nezumi - That girl's got a good set of hips on her. I've attached one whose hips are less pronounced. I bumped out Taonui's hips a bit in the fifth panel, see if that will work for you. I want her to be more rangey than sexy curvy.

I may not be able to carry a strong likeness between the panels, without hiring models and doing photo shoots, which is no where close to being in the cards. I'll do my best but ultimately the pages need to come out.

[Jack the R]

Alright, just got to tighten up the figure in pn 3 and a few minor things and this is done. If anyone has suggestions on lighting/toning that figure, now would be a good time to get them in.

[Jack the R]

Well here we go - surprised at how little everyone has had to say about this. There are definitely people on this board who can handle color, tones, and lighting better than I do. Please feel free to show up for pg 9.

[Jack the R]

Pg 9 starts. The High Priestess is getting a little too 3D looking - probably could stand to move away from that a bit. I'm sure it'll work itself out in time.

[Quigleyer]

The page before page 9, assumed as page 8-- The word bubble in the fourth panel describing the speech of the high priestess looks to be coming from her shoulder stump area there (i'm not sure I'm seeing that right- is she an amputee or something?). I'd play around with moving it up to maybe point more towards her "face."

I really do like the word bubbles in shape and size, and mostly in placement. The highly saturated red was just as overpowering as the highly saturated blue. It's my opinion that you could play around with these colors a little more and possibly mute them just a tad.

[Jack the R]

I see what you mean about the bubble placement. I moved it down a bit to keep it off the ship, and lengthened the arrow out. This is what real comics have editors for

I desaturated a few panels - to me it doesn't work as well, since some colors are defined by their saturation and become different colors when desaturated (red becomes brown for instance). So it loses the connection to the story. But anyway, here's a few panels with desaturated colors.

[Jack the R]

Progress on 9 - I've got to start drawing people in normal positions and lighting.

I don't know how detailed I'm going to get with the anatomy - it would be wise to keep this more stylized and manageable.

[Janos]

HI Jack the R

I am not a huge pro on lighting/anatomy myself, so I will just comment on things I noticed in general.
First of all regarding the likeness of the main character. I actually see this as a key point of any comic , that the characters are instantly recognisable. Try sketching her out in many different situations until you are sure you have a good sense of how she is supposed to look like. I would also add some distinctive features like a bump in the nose, some killer brows, hollow cheeks or other stuff that makes her more interesting. Atm she is looking very bland.

You have created a very good start to a comic though... I am eager to see how it continues because I think the mood is endearing and original. The font and bubbles are WAY over the top though. I would change them to very simple and clear frames instead. That is me talking to you as your comic editor so keep that in mind!
Such detailed and special bubbles are best left for some very special occasions!

[Jack the R]

Thanks for the comment.

About her appearance, what I'm worried about is, if I develop a strong likeness, will I be able to carry it, and not spend huge amounts of time on likenesses? If it was a cartoon character, sure, I can do it - but a realistic, plausible, attractive appearance is incredibly subtle. I'm very afraid of the amount of time it will take.

About the bubbles, I'll try something else. I genuinely like these, but I'm not willing to hurt the book for them.

[Jack the R]

Yeah, at this point in my artistic development I think the likeness thing is going to eat up huge amounts of time. I'm not sure it's even possible without models. The same face can look totally different in real life with just a change in lighting. But maybe I'm totally wrong and someone who can carry a likeness (of a realistic looking character, not an exaggerated character) without models can show me the way.

Here's the progress. I need to work on the mouth more and a few other things, but this is basically the Taonui head in pn 1.

[Tony Wallace]

Thanks for the comment.

About her appearance, what I'm worried about is, if I develop a strong likeness, will I be able to carry it, and not spend huge amounts of time on likenesses? If it was a cartoon character, sure, I can do it - but a realistic, plausible, attractive appearance is incredibly subtle. I'm very afraid of the amount of time it will take.

About the bubbles, I'll try something else. I genuinely like these, but I'm not willing to hurt the book for them.

It's a viable concern, to be sure. But you've already made it clear at this point that you're willing to invest time and effort in aspects of the concept if you feel it will pay dividends.

If the goal is to create a financially viable comic, the one thing that you can do to greatly increase your odds is to design an instantly recognizable main character. I would say that it's an absolute necessity, but I don't believe in absolutes. But basically, I deal with producers, agents and editors on a daily basis. I hear the same refrains of objection so often, I can nearly recite them before they're made. So, if the goal is to attract a financier, or land a deal with a publisher, you will be doing yourself a huge favor by taking the time to develop a clear, obvious look for your lead. Many producorial types would go so far as to say, without a clearly defined character, there's no property. In the movie world, that's done through the writing and personality (the visual part comes later when an actor is cast). In the comic medium, that includes the visual aspect. Not everyone will have the same experience, I'm just speaking from my own. IE, your mileage may vary, but it's something to consider.

One thing you might consider to that end is creating a 3D head maquette (ala the one done by Dr. Wong, and use that to nail your features whenever they're in question. You're right though, the style you've chosen will make that an uphill battle.

Like Jeff, the style makes it hard to make individual observations, because many of the things I might point out seem like they're probably stylistic choices designed to convey a sense of otherworldliness and disorientation. I will say that it was quite hard to follow, and the endless muted colors and greys were part of that. Mainly just tiring to the eye. Others have mentioned the font and bubbles. I have to agree, those need to read instantly. The blue is better, and more clear, but I would suggest you rethink how important the font choice is to your vision, versus how you clearly convey the story and dialogue.

From a visual storytelling standpoint, the third page (where the story starts in earnest) is really unclear as to what's going on. Is she falling? Being captured? Already captive and being summoned? It's hard to tell. The rest of the dialogue seems to indicate that she's a willing participant in whatever is happening. On the fourth page, it seems there's a ritual scarring going on (and the later panels seem to reveal this is the case). In the second panel, the scalpel appears to be backwards though. It might be double edged, but it sort of looks like the flatter end is blunt, in the first panel. In panels 3 and 4, and can't tell what the purpose of the spiky thing there is. When we pull out to the full reveal on the bottom of the page, it's not there anymore, so there are no answers forthcoming. I love that angle, by the way. It seems like she should have some rivulets of blood, and signs of the earlier shown scarring in this reveal.

The next two pages are the reveal of the god (I assume). These work fine. There is a sense of pace and majesty, even if I'm not totally certain what I'm seeing, as an alien to this world. The main problem at this point, is we still know nothing about the main character, other than that she's part of a ritual. Clarifying whether or not she's complicit in what's happening will help this immensely. If this is against her will, we sympathize with her enough to hang in and find out more about her as a character. If she is complicit, we want to know why, and how she ended up here. If you intend for her to be held against her will, consider the old storytelling axiom, start the story from the earliest part of the character's journey. We could learn a lot about her before she's taken (if that's the case) by showing a couple pages of her life leading up to that. That in turn will contrast with the horrors she suffers, and make her even more sympathetic.

On page 7, I was quite sure the girl falls after the dragon/god gets blasted. Which made it really confusing that she's still hanging on the next page. No I think it's just the placement of the bubble that sort of blurs out the rope. Just make sure that's made clear.

On the first few read-throughs, I thought the high-priestess (I only know that's what/who she is because of your explanation. The narrative needs to tell us this somehow, by word or action (maybe this happens on page 10, but it needs to happen soon and early) and the others are a new faction, the ones that just blasted the dragon. Now, I'm not sure. Were they there all along, and are fighting the ship that blasted the dragon? Are they overtaking the ritual site? If the former, show the silhouette at least of the priestess in earlier panels to clarify this. If the latter, this will probably be made clear on the next couple pages.

I'm not sure if the words are coming from the girl, the priestess, the crowd, or a combination. There's little sense of where they originate mainly because the arrows are so tiny, in a sea of other tiny spikes. Because they are all a special shape, as a reader I assume they are all the same person speaking, even when the arrows point in different directions. Just needs to be more clear. If you're set on doing all specialty bubbles, I would suggest doing unique ones for each speaker(s).

Sorry that's not much to offer from an artistic standpoint, but maybe some of that will help from a storytelling one.

[Jack the R]

Thanks Tony, you made a big effort to help me improve my comic. I'll do my best to address these issues.

I'm not developing with comic publishers or movie studios in mind. The odds of getting anything done through them aren't good enough to bother with, and I don't want them turning around and suing my audience later. I have ethical objections to the whole corporate thing.

I've released XTIN under a Creative Commons by-nc-sa license which allows people to distribute it for free. My plan has been to publish over the web and tap into the Open (Source, Business, etc) movement. XTIN started off as a Blender based movie project. I've probably had about 15 people work on it - the ones who weren't talented dropped off fast but the good ones are still with me. It became evident however that the movie project itself wasn't entertaining enough to draw an audience. Maybe if I could do it American Chopper style and make a web show about myself yelling at people like an ass LOL - but no, actual 3D movie production is really boring. And if you're familiar with the "A Swarm of Angels" project, even with professional media presentation and coverage, Matt Hanson wasn't able to get any action in his forum. He raised some $'s but the forums were dead.

I put the movie project on hiatus because it needed to draw eyeballs to work, and that wasn't happening. Well, what does draw eyeballs on the internet? Good webcomics draw eyeballs on the internet. Even bad webcomics draw eyeballs on the internet, given enough time and a reliable update schedule.

By all means keep the art critiques coming, they can't do anything but help. But let me explain some of my reasoning (and if you think I'm wrong, feel free to comment - I may be wrong).

The way I see it, the art as it stands, is pretty far ahead of most webcomic art, and it's steadily getting better.

The time that it takes to get the art done is bad. Real bad. I'm grudgingly prepared to live with the comic taking 35 or 60 hours a page, for now. 35-60 hrs per panel would be really crazy though. I'm sure we can load the comic up with features until it takes that long. Does it make sense to do that? How many pages of story per month will strong likenesses cost me? On the internet, is the improvement in art quality worth the loss of story?

Given where the art is now, I doubt it. I will still work to improve the art and fix everything that isn't right, but as far as the overall goal goes, I feel like the comic needs to update faster with a more comprehensible story than it needs better art.

[Lotet]

use more 3D!! I loved those frames, I really think a mix betwean 3D and 2D could make a cool effect on something like this.

[Tony Wallace]

Thanks Tony, you made a big effort to help me improve my comic. I'll do my best to address these issues.

I'm not developing with comic publishers or movie studios in mind. The odds of getting anything done through them aren't good enough to bother with, and I don't want them turning around and suing my audience later. I have ethical objections to the whole corporate thing.

Totally understandable. One thing we like to say about Hollywood is if your vision is important to you, find a way to do it yourself.

I've released XTIN under a Creative Commons by-nc-sa license which allows people to distribute it for free. My plan has been to publish over the web and tap into the Open (Source, Business, etc) movement. XTIN started off as a Blender based movie project. I've probably had about 15 people work on it - the ones who weren't talented dropped off fast but the good ones are still with me. It became evident however that the movie project itself wasn't entertaining enough to draw an audience. Maybe if I could do it American Chopper style and make a web show about myself yelling at people like an ass LOL - but no, actual 3D movie production is really boring. And if you're familiar with the "A Swarm of Angels" project, even with professional media presentation and coverage, Matt Hanson wasn't able to get any action in his forum. He raised some $'s but the forums were dead.

I put the movie project on hiatus because it needed to draw eyeballs to work, and that wasn't happening. Well, what does draw eyeballs on the internet? Good webcomics draw eyeballs on the internet. Even bad webcomics draw eyeballs on the internet, given enough time and a reliable update schedule.

That's definitely true. In the webcomic world, reliable updating seems to be the most vital element, both in keeping the audience interested and in keeping the creator interested. Just something to consider though, that even the most successful webcomics, and ones with sometimes awful artwork, have reconizable characters. The reason for this is a combination of clarity and connection. Without those things, people struggle to get into it and, finding themselves lost, often drop a comic, even one with excellent art, just because they can't follow it.

You're totally right though in that extending the time it takes in between pages isn't going to do you any favors. You might consider though, given the value of a strong character design, balancing the time commitment by backing off some on the detail (not the quality) of the art in favor of a more manageable style. I think there is a point of diminishing returns in the level of detail in the art to the return in readership. Just a thought. Obviously you've put a lot of thought, talent and effort into this, so at the end of the day, you've got to be doing it whatever way you love most.

By all means keep the art critiques coming, they can't do anything but help. But let me explain some of my reasoning (and if you think I'm wrong, feel free to comment - I may be wrong).

The way I see it, the art as it stands, is pretty far ahead of most webcomic art, and it's steadily getting better.

The time that it takes to get the art done is bad. Real bad. I'm grudgingly prepared to live with the comic taking 35 or 60 hours a page, for now. 35-60 hrs per panel would be really crazy though. I'm sure we can load the comic up with features until it takes that long. Does it make sense to do that? How many pages of story per month will strong likenesses cost me? On the internet, is the improvement in art quality worth the loss of story?

Given where the art is now, I doubt it. I will still work to improve the art and fix everything that isn't right, but as far as the overall goal goes, I feel like the comic needs to update faster with a more comprehensible story than it needs better art.

Understood. What I'm suggesting (and this is just my take of course) is that you'll get a much bigger boost in storytelling, readership retention and overall quality with less detailed artwork and stronger character recognition, than the other way around. But, that's just observational conjecture. You might find that the formula you've got taps into the audience in just the right way. You never know. Good luck with it, and keep pushing.

[Jack the R]

Just want to throw this out - I'm getting a fair amount of contradictory opinion. Quigleyer likes the balloon shapes, I like them (would like to mix them up a bit), Janos and Tony Wallace don't like them. Most people haven't said anything about them one way or another . . .

Lotet liked the 3D - but other people (like Dr. Hua, ironically enough) didn't like it, so I stopped doing it . . .

Some people found the story hard to follow, some understood what I was trying to do, most haven't said anything one way or the other . . .

Janos and Tony Wallace don't like the faces, I get compliments on the art from other people.

In the end I'm going to have to call it as best I can and some people who meant well and were trying to help out aren't going to be 100% pleased.

But keep trying

[Sunny]

The text on the comics is automatically hard to read. i suspect it has more to do with the colors you are using and possibly the font choices. Im not saying that you should automatically go to a standard font but it needs to be more readily readable otherwise it just wont be enjoyable to read. I know that white text on dark background is harder for the eyes to read than dark text on a light background. I remember in spawn they would sometimes make the creatures talk with white text on black which worked there. Otherwise you compensate with some gradient action.

As for the art I dont really know what to say. I dont think I am the demographic for this type of genre. It reminds me of the Saw movies which I think are just a pointless disturbing gore fest. And since the inner self matches the outer self I think its easier for people to enjoy it who are closer to that nature.

I read it and look at the images but feel no connection to it. So I think it may lack some form of connectivity. Theres nothing I can relate to about it because its so surreal. My question then is where are you really trying to transport me with this? I dont really enjoy going to a land of torture and demons and fear and anger and fighting. Maybe I am missing a part of the story where someone goes on a bad trip or something.

Your latest panel is kinda hard to read visually which suggests your composition isnt trying to lead my eyes. There is the composition rule: 60/30/10 which suggests its good to make your scene have 60% of one value, 30% of another and 10% of another. The values are Lights (your brightest values), middle range, and darks. Your background of your newest page looks to be about 80% mid, 15%dark, 5%lights. I suggest redistributing some of those values to your main focal point otherwise the viewers eyes travel where they dont need to be for the real dramatic impact of the story.

But ya I dont know how far you are in on these but hopefully that helps something.

[Tony Wallace]

Just want to throw this out - I'm getting a fair amount of contradictory opinion. Quigleyer likes the balloon shapes, I like them (would like to mix them up a bit), Janos and Tony Wallace don't like them. Most people haven't said anything about them one way or another . . .

Lotet liked the 3D - but other people (like Dr. Hua, ironically enough) didn't like it, so I stopped doing it . . .

Some people found the story hard to follow, some understood what I was trying to do, most haven't said anything one way or the other . . .

Janos and Tony Wallace don't like the faces, I get compliments on the art from other people.

In the end I'm going to have to call it as best I can and some people who meant well and were trying to help out aren't going to be 100% pleased.

But keep trying

I think with any forum for critique, you'll end up getting contrasting advice that's mixed with preferences. By nature, when people are asked to critique something, they look at it differently. Things they would have otherwise noticed become glaring, and sometimes people go out of their way to avoid this tendency, and end up on the other side of balance.

It's less true for a single image, but more true when dealing with a story's worth of them. As the complexity increases, so does the amount of preference in the responses. Questions, for example, of whether or not to use 3d, will be preferential. Sort of like giving a nicely rendered cartoon low marks for not being realistic. Or a publisher rejecting Harry Potter because it has goblins in it.

The hard part is separating the preferential criticism from the foundational stuff. It's easier in writing, where you can clearly say that issues of spelling and grammar are foundational, while whether or not goblins are cool, is not. Or in a visual image, where one can point directly to compositional issues, warped perspective lines, etc. With a comic, now you're combining both mediums of storytelling, so the lines begin to blur even more.

With writing, I've learned a couple things about critiques. First of all, the client is king. So if I'm writing for someone, and they want it a certain way, that's what they'll get. If I'm writing primarily for myself, I'll look for repetition in critique. If more than one person points out the same issue, I need to take a good hard look at it. If three people, independent of one another point out the same issue, it probably needs to go. If only one person has an issue with something, I usually weigh the pros and cons, and go with my gut.

Hope that makes sense. I guess what I'm trying to say is figure out what things people are saying that are technical, and which are preference first, and then it will be easier to know which to take to heart and which you can take in but not apply.

[Tony Wallace]

As for the bubbles, I think the shape is pretty unique and cool looking. But it's still really hard to read.