senior thesis show rant

[TASmith]

"i seriously question the people who are criticizing my work and fail to see any flaws in their own"

No, no, no, no, no. I see plenty of flaws in my own work, and I realize there are still more lurking out of my eyesight. So does everyone else here, with regard to their own art. Just because we give an opinion or advice, it doesn't mean we don't treat our own work the same way. We're only trying to help - no one here wants you to stop making art. Slash here gave the most help, so he's the one you should be most grateful too. That paintover illustrated a lot.

Before you say anything else, you really need to read this thread: http://www.conceptart.org/forums/sho...d.php?t=175079

[Slash]

You say you worked on this for 3 weeks, 5-16 hours every day. thats 105 -336 hours for this piece. My 15 minute comment should perhaps have said 1 hour. I'm basing that estimate on having done countless of 1hour thunderdomes in irc, and i've seen better work produced from that by people who can't match the kind of stuff you have in your sketchbook.

The reason I'm pointing out the flaws isn't to be negative. It's to help you. You couldn't understand your teacher's reasoning, i wanted to help you understand.

If the first 20 hours of work doesn't produce something decent, you could perhaps take 2 hours to build a model of your robot out of cardboard, drinking straws and duct tape, then shoot some reference. Then you'd have some 300 hours to work from that.

You say you appreciate my paintover, but you seem to be missing the point completely. Wheter my paintover made things blurry or not doesn't matter in the least. I could have taken the time to mask out the character and gotten some clean edges in there, but that would not have made the point i was trying to make any clearer.

But then again, why do i bother?

[Baron Impossible]

You'd do better concentrating on the fundamentals that form the final image rather than concepts at this stage. It's all very well having an indepth concept where every nut, bolt and carapace has a purpose but unless you can render it solidly then the process is largely pointless. Try doing numerous quick (<1 hr), colour concepts, concentrating on volume & lighing, composition and pose / anatomy and forgetting about whether the forces exerted on the secondary back-up knee piston would be sufficient to bear its body weight on a 47 degree incline.

[LRomel]

thanks

[nauvice]

it would be a lot more helpful if people actually seemed like they were helping instead of saying 'you never listen, i can see why your teachers didnt bother after awhile, i cant believe this is the kind of work youre doing and youre a senior'
or posting links about how my replies are just excuses.
this doesnt help.
what does help is telling me what they like about the piece so i dont change it for the worse

aww. you're not 5. Obviously this is not boot camp, but it isnt Kindergarden either... you're very defensive. Mentioning where you failed/are failing so you dont repeat similar mistakes is constructive criticism. Harsh, maybe, only if you take it too personal. Where'd you get the impression that crits had to be covered with candy and flowers?

Im sorry, what you were probably hoping for are comments along the lines of "you're so much better than that guy, I cant believe those judges". I think you should be grateful this thread didnt turn out like that, so far everyone gave their honest opinions, and that is a lot more helpful than fake flattery.

[Jason Rainville]

none of this is exactly encouraging

Ok how about this - one of the reasons everyone is being a bit hard on you is that it's very obvious that your work clearly shows a ton more potential than the other guy: yours shows an understanding of depth while he has characters siting on the horizon. Yours has a unified colour scheme and his is all over the place. Yours shows some solid form and rendering while his is flat. Yours has a sense of visual design while I can barely read the non-sequitor message on his.

People are beating your ass because you're on the right track, and they're concerned that you might get hung up on either this event or the work you've done up to this point. It's hella hard to have a shit-ton of work you've done (work that's also important to you) disregarded, but the more you dwell on this the less time you spend having fun with art, or learning things with art etc. The reward for all this hard work is that you've had a taste of what hard work is, and you've tried out an approach to a large project. It may have no had culminated in the best possible way, but now you have that experience under your belt. You can adapt and change your strategy for next time and It'll turn out better.

That said....

what does help is telling me what they like about the piece so i dont change it for the worse

I don't think anyone could come on this site and expect to be given the good and not the bad. You usually get both.

[Slash]

what does help is telling me what they like about the piece so i dont change it for the worse and explaining to me maybe how they work from drawing to painting or why the drawings dont look functional.

Whats wrong with the piece is much more important to get across than what works. Trust me, any art director you'll have the pleasure of working with will tell you whats wrong before giving you compliments if there are pressing issues.

Look, there's no need to be on the defence like this. If everyone says your post sound a certain way, maybe, just maybe there's something about what you're saying, or the way you're saying it that doesn't sound right.

I've already touched upon why it doesn't look functional. To get more in depth, the mechanical joints don't look like they are part of a functional machinery. You have suggested actuators, but its not clear what these actuators DO. The joints don't look functional, the best example is his right (our left) hip, what sort of joint is it? If its rigid, how does it allow the range of motion shown?

Why didn't you draw the robot with the same amount of care in the illustration as you did in the concept sketch?

[nauvice]

Ok how about this - one of the reasons everyone is being a bit hard on you is that it's very obvious that your work clearly shows a ton more potential than the other guy: yours shows an understanding of depth while he has characters siting on the horizon. Yours has a unified colour scheme and his is all over the place. Yours shows some solid form and rendering while his is flat. Yours has a sense of visual design while I can barely read the non-sequitor message on his.

meh... you've made excellent points about his work and potential. But what if his classmate was also in ca and had to read that... trash talking one end to make the other look good is unnecessary.

how good or bad he is has nothing do to with his competition.

[GriNGo]

Hey man, I honestly think the other guys piece sucks, compared to yours. I mean, it doesn't matter the amount of characters and complex composition or whatever, it still looks like SHIT. But yeah man, you still need to study and incorporate the knowledge into your work, specially if you're looking for a job. Don't take the harsh comments too seriously, just learn from them.

[Noah Bradley]

If you're shooting to be a professional a year from now, there's a couple more things you should consider. First, capitalization and proper grammar are expected of you. Surely by the time you're a senior in college you should be able to handle that. Secondly, you posted this on a forum that gets seen by a lot of professionals in the industry. Do you really think that blatantly bashing your classmate's work and, in general, coming across as hard to get along with will benefit you when you're trying to get work?

Just something to think about.

[Elwell]

Jeez, PARSONS?!?
Honestly, I wouldn't accept either piece into a senior show if I were concerned about the reputation of my school.
Don't be pissed off about the other guy, be pissed off that you're capable of doing so much better (judging by your other work), and totally blew it on this one.

[LRomel]

edited for lack of clarity

[silvestri99]

At this point I think your "thanks" post was the best yet. Forget about the show and focus only on getting better. If you get a crit about a piece either use it, ignore it or ask for more of an explanation. When you post at CA you get crits, helpful crits! Take it as a blessing and humbly that people are willing to spend their time to help you out.
I also know that everyone has something to teach you. Even if an artist doesn't seem up to your level they still may do something better than you or have a perspective that can help you.

You are on the right road just keep traveling it!

[Ryan K]

I think what Dirty C says is awesome, and his first rule applies a lot to what you seem to be getting hung up on.

1.You're not here to make pretty pictures.
2.Everything you do is wrong.

I never write the third rule.

As you can see, I thrive under conditions of adversity

Ok, so here's what it means. 1.You really aren't here to make pretty pictures. This is a central piece of what I've learnt from ca. If you're hung up on making the picture you're doing the most beautiful picture you can imagine, then you'll screw it right up. You'll be precious, and careful, and afraid to experiment. So when you think to yourself 'You're not here to make pretty pictures' the real meaning is you're here so that you can make AMAZING pictures in a year. If you're not learning something from almost every picture you do, then you've wasted that time. You need to be prepared to do some amazingly bad drawings and paintings in order that a year from now, you will be better than you could have hoped to be on that day.

2.Everything you do is wrong. This bit freaks people out when I tell them haha. If you're standing there with a dark green picture, and it's just not god damned sexy enough, and you've got this crazy idea about laying down this vile pale violet, you're probably gonna freak out. So you gotta laugh at yourself. You gotta think "well, shit, if everything I do is wrong, then I may as well DO SOMETHING INTERESTING."

So that's number two. Accept that you are always wrong. Then do something interesting.

3.Ok, everyone has to write their own third rule. I've got a million ways of putting this, and every day i come up with a new one. Rule number three is The Void. It's the horrible emptiness of the universe that doesn't give a shit about you. It's every person who has ever doubted you, every person who has told you that you just don't have the talent to be what you want to be. It's every fucking art department head who has said that the entire colour family of orange is unacceptable in any picture you did. It's the asshole who told you that you couldn't even draw on your lunch break, cause it was obviously a bad influence on you. It's your god damned parents who forced you through a degree in fucking engineering or law or commerce when you should have been painting for four years! It's the burning core of your being that says to rule one and two, fuck you there are no rules! It's the shitty little town you came from where every mother fucker told you that you'd never amount to anything and it's what you see when you look at the sky and realise that you're alive.

Rule three is actually the simplest rule, because it's not really something you can say in words. But when I do say it, I say it in two:

3.FUCK YOU.

[LRomel]

these are good rules. i remember someone told me rule number 1 before, just have to remember to follow it

[Amber Alexander]

You have potential but from someone who was once in your position, I'll pass on some advice. I was in my senior year in college and everyone up until that point had told me how wonderful my work was until I posted my portfolio here in the WIP section. Some guy tore me a new one, basically said it was all mediocre and it was very hard to hear but to be honest, it was true.

So I pulled myself together, became active on this site, starting participating in the weekly CHOWS and posting my work in the Crits section, constantly updating the work after getting feedback and I improved a ton.

It looks like you have some of the skills but you really need to refine and speed up your process, I think doing some of the weekly CHOWS will help you do that. I say that because your illustration should not take that long and if you get hired you will get fired very fast if your work takes that long to make. Participating in the CHOWS will limit your time to about a week, that's a good start and you will get advice from professionals while there.

Another suggestion would be apply to grad school, even if it turns out you don't go, apply as a back up because 6 months may not be realistic. This industry is VERY VERY hard to break into and I don't want to pop your bubble, I just want to be honest. You clearly have some skill if your favorite band wants you to design their cover but freelance work is a whole different ballgame from full time work.

I too thought the same thing and am now, 6 months after graduating, still without fulltime work, only freelance. I choose to apply to grad school just in case I didn't get work and I didn't. All I'm saying is be prepared and keep working.

[Jason Manley]

Your ability to communicate is in need of a lot of work. Start there.

You are defensive and have no reason to be. You should not be worried about some kid in class. Even the senior show doesnt mean anything at all. Just keep working on your stuff and focus on what the pros are doing, not some kid is up to. Who cares?

Your robot work looks like about 3 days work, at best. The thumbnails look like an hour worth of work. You are going to have to keep working long hours to improve your speed. You could have solved most of it by using sketchup and watching kemp's videos if you got stuck. There is no excuse that you cannot get the info on how to do concept art. It is right here on the site. There are basic problems, like how the legs work, how the pieces are created for doing orthographs...you have a long way to go.

All in all, you are going to have to put in long hours, study the logic of moving parts and mechanical engineering, and keep focusing on your design. You are not ready for true professional work, in attitude, communication, or quality of work.

Just more time...you wlll get there if you start putting in more hours. How you deal with the attitude and communcation issues is up to you.


Jason
;

[Jason Manley]

btw...if your guy raises his arms up like a scarecrow he will impale his skull.

Think about your design work. Logic must win.


Jason

[Slash]

look i know i need a lot of work. im just having a hard time taking the harsh criticism. please dont patronize me

Hehe, throw a ball at a wall and it might just bounce back and hit you in the face.

I'm glad you're starting to come around and turning this into a positive learning experience. My offer still stands, if you make a critique center thread and let me know about it I'll help you to the extent of my ability.

PS: Being a girl isn't gonna help you in this industry, you gotta be able to fight the boys teeth and claw.

[Amber Alexander]

PS: Being a girl isn't gonna help you in this industry, you gotta be able to fight the boys teeth and claw.

True lol but I think she said that only because people were refering to her as "man". But its just one of those things you get used to as a female, I generally assume everyone here is a guy unless they go by a female name, have a female avatar or I notice them post in the chick section.

[LRomel]

This project got me really touchy and obviously the replies I've made here are in no way reflecting a professional. I need to learn how to make sure people aren't taking things I say in another way than I intended, which I elaborate more on below . I realize people are trying to help me, I put this in the lounge with the intention of having the freedom to get some of my aggravation out (didn't mean to take it out on others that may be how it came off as). Like I mentioned before I knew that it was silly for me to compare my other classmate's work with mine. He actually isn't really competition to me. I treated this post like it was a blog and that was a wrong move on my part. I certainly didn't expect to have professionals looking at this but that was something I should have taken into mind before I started this thread.Another thing I should have made more clear was the fact that my school doesn't provide any classes on concept art isn't special, I don't think a lot of schools do so I am putting the hours in, and I've been using the tutorials and resources out there like many others are. It's not very likely that having my work in one show is going to instantly get me noticed. This is still practice. I know I wont be ready when I graduate, and I will probably redo everything in my portfolio. You're supposed to make mistakes at this time, that's what school is for.And yes I only said I was a girl because people were referring to me as a "he". Finally. I will post the reworking of this in the critique center but not until I've fixed what I already know what needs to be fixed or I reach a point where I need to take a step back and get another perspective on my work.
I would like to reiterate. The replies here do not reflect me as a professional. This is not the way I would reply if I posted this in the critique center. Please understand that this thread was a personal rant I went off of that probably should have been posted on a livejournal or blog site. I'm aware that this board isn't the place for personal drama and it is probably best that I keep topics of this nature on another site from now on.
Every so often I will need to turn to this when I end up facing situations like these.I find they're really helpful when trying to understand and communicate with others and myself in a general context.
An excerpt from a book by Don Miguel Ruiz:


The Four Agreements

1.Be impeccable with your word. Speak with integrity. Say only what you mean. Avoid using your words to speak against yourself or to gossip about others. Use the power of your words in the direction of love and truth.

2. Don't take anything personally. Nothing others say and do is because of you. What others say and do is a reflection and projection of their own reality or their own dream. When you are immune to the opinions and reactions of others, you will free yourself from needless suffering.

3. Don't make assumptions. Find the courage to ask questions and to express what you really want. Communicate with others as clearly as you can to avoid misunderstandings, sadness, and drama. With this one agreement you can completely transform your life.

4. Always do your best. Your best is going to change from moment to moment: it will be different when you are healthy opposed to sick. Under any circumstance, simply do your best, and you will avoid self-judgment, abuse, and regret.

[Ian Barker]

Those 4 points Don makes are all great, but I think what you need to do more than anything is to crave critique and learn to apply it. Those people who don't like your work? They are your income. It is your job, your responsibility to please those people. It may sound bad that an artist should be so dependant on other people's opinions, but being an artist is not this "free play" profession (in most cases) where you get to do what you feel like and people will pay for it. The better you become at recieving and applying critique, the more people will like your work (in the concept art world, work is generally not a matter of opinion, either it communicates skillfully or it doesn't), and the better chance they will one day hire you.

I can see from your sketchbook you have some ability... don't waste it.

[LRomel]

Yes I know,I should clarify: I want critique more than anything, but I don't find it helpful when I already know what needs to be fixed myself, which is why I am not going to post something until I actually fix what I already know needs to be fixed. Once again; I would have taken criticism differently if I posted this in the wip/critique center. The reactions I've had to the critiques in this thread should be disregarded, this was not the place to post a rant of that nature.
The four agreements help me communicate with others better, I know that concept art is less about opinions. I know being an artist is not a 'free play' profession in most cases. I did not mean to imply the opposite with the excerpt. I know that there are no shortcuts and I know that I need to get used to the fact that my work will get criticized like this again, and I may work twice as hard on it. There are always people who are more talented than me but all i can do is be the best artist i can be. I should also be flexible, in the ways that I can work, but not get trapped into doing something i absolutely hate. Another good piece of advice I've been given is in the meantime I should do something I know that I'm good at, then work on getting better at something that I like really to do.

[Raoul Duke]

Jeez, PARSONS?!?
Honestly, I wouldn't accept either piece into a senior show if I were concerned about the reputation of my school.
Don't be pissed off about the other guy, be pissed off that you're capable of doing so much better (judging by your other work), and totally blew it on this one.

I checked out Parsons student portfolio and It looks like a community college.
You compare for yourself Parsonsons and community college

For the record I think parsons is slightly better, but I only paid $20 a unit for Community College and I still feel I over payed.

[LRomel]

everything in that parsons portfolio is really old by the way.
here are some current students
http://www.katieturner.net
http://www.esymai.com
http://www.jpsketch.com

I've had enough tough love for today.please keep me out of this.
This is the last time I post a thread in the lounge, seems more susceptible to people being misinterpreted than the other sections.
If you disagree, please keep it to yourself. Thank you.