It will be interesting to see how this experiment works out. Do I need to go mug someone and buy the downloadable content that I'm missing now to avoid having it be streaming only availability, or will the existing downloadable content remain so?
As far as the streaming is concerned: Will a purchase I make give me unlimited access to the content I've purchased, or will it be on a limited basis. Such as I buy access to a video and am given one shot to watch it.
If this model doesn't appear to work to solve the problem what would your next step be. What would a yearly membership cost and what would it entitle us to? In theory of course.
On a side not that corresponds to this discussion. I have a subscription to IFX Mag. You fine gentlemen are constantly appearing in it's pages, yet I have almost never heard about the downloadable content available here on the sight. Kemp had a free video on the resource dvd that IFX advertises as being a value of a fifteen dollar tuition in the June issue. Yet there appears to be less then spectacular coverage of the fact that these videos are available here. I know your artists but it wouldn't hurt in the future to say hey look we have this great thing were doing for the art community so were going to mention it. I know that almost every issue has a review of a art DVD, why not you guys? I only mention this with the intent that if you haven't thought of it or engaged this idea yet, it could help to increase volume of sales which would hopefully lessen the impact of pirated copying, or at least keep the video prices down closer to where they are. What a fucking earful, I apologize.
Much luck and support to you all.
Theres always some complete *#$&'s that spoil it for the rest of us .
I personally have purchased every single one of your downloads and i loved them all. I frequently go back to them and watch them over and over when im traveling or just relaxing with my laptop somewhere.
If they go to stream it will be really dissopointing and it wont really solve the piracy problems to any1 who can use a video capture program. But it may deter alot of legitimate paying customers instead.
Also i hope you dont change the current downloads to stream only. This will only encourage people to go out there and download the pirated versions instead of streaming them.
On another note $25 for a stream ? compared to $15 for the download videos. Doenst really make sense to me if anything streaming should cost less because you can only watch is so many times, unless you plan to tie the stream to our CA accounts in someway so that we can rewatch whenever we want. But that brings up the issue of someone getting there CA account hacked and all the content pirated anyway.
I personally like the idea of subscriptions, maybe have them in a few levels like bronze (free content only) Silver (forum access $5 a year) Gold (forum +video access $5-15 a month) I would be happy to pay that kind of fee to view this amazing website.
i don't realy understand how this is going to work.
if you're planning on selling pay-per-view videos or "pay to access for a perdiod of time" for 25 USD my honest prognosis is that sells will decrease and sharing will increase as long as quality of your product is high. if the quality would be low sells would decrease and sharing would end - thats no suggestion to make the vids rubbish, just what studies on the subject usualy show: people are selective with what they share and the average customer doesn't accept pay-per-view for more than 5 bucks.
if you're planning to offer your customers non time restricted access to the streams you will have to pay for a lot of bandwidth without a new constant revenue stream. i don't think this could work.
so why are there no torrents on those streaming classes of that other school who sells their content for two hundred times what you sell your vids for? I am of course only guessing here, but i think the answer isn't streaming but high price. because a) people are hesitant with just sharing things they paid a lot of money for with their peers and b) those guys who make a hobby out of sharing things as torrents probably don't have the funds to pay for those schools classes in the first place to just support their "hobby".
and if we're talking about schoolism: there businiess modell has limited customers and all of them have the whole personal critique thing they pay for.
i am personaly looking forward to those streaming vids the same i was looking forward to the downloads. but i will have to be more selective with which ones i buy. because of the higher price. and because i can't just simply buy because it's a nice way to support what you do and get a great video on top. I will need the time to realy watch and study the vid. and i have only had time to realy go through 50% of all the downloads i bought so far.
and if i could choose between streaming videos and to pay an annual membership fee i would choose the latter if the constant revenue stream you'd gain would actually mean more content and higher quality of the site and stuff.
i am especially thrilled about your ideas on online classes you described in your other thread.
good luck, can't wait for the new stuff.
You already know my opinion through the extensive PM I sent you.
Good luck with it.
well I for one will not pay to watch streaming videos...I can say that I personally think this is heading to the close of this site..... i would suggest raising the prices and a yearly membership fee before making streaming videos ..... but then again maybe i will just get 'punched in the face ' for making a suggestion
Last edited by kraal; May 8th, 2009 at 04:01 PM.
How come? --- Eminem
My website is here
I'd rather pay a subscription to the site than have to deal with streaming vids...(because I can't). Not to mention I'm happy to donate from time to time too as in money wise.
this really unfortnate and sucks, right now I have limited amount I can transfer download/upload over the net and with the streaming it's going to really hurt my pockets if I go over the limit. looking on like 5 or 10 bucks per extra gig. I really hope another solution can be found that's over here in Canada now. guess it won't be possible to support you guys as much when I move back down to Jamaica since internet connection down there is not really fast, that with lack of portability since internet acess isn't always reliable in some other places really hurts the selling point.
as for the increase in price, though I'm practically broke it will be 25 bucks well spent for learning purposes (even better if it's downloadable and transportable) please reconsider or atleast give me some time to scrape the cash together and get what I'm missing while it's still downloadable
it is better to have sketched and sucked than to never have sketched at all.
Visit my sketch book at
CA are going to burn for punching Kraal in the face.
I for one am not bothered about streaming. I do this with Lynda.com for my graphic work. I am one of those who only need to watch something once or twice so having a hard copy seems irrelevant for me.
Edit: Why not do what Gn0M0N Workshop does? With the purpose made software where you can choose which chapter to watch and such. The problem with Quicktime and similar formats is that they can be uploaded as such to the internet. I rarely see Gn0m0n videos on torrent sites.
this is a bad idea. i would rather have the site go paid subscription than streaming videos. the quality will be less. and i have watched nox's vids at least two dozen times.
i've watched marko's dvd which i received from my wife several christmases ago well over four dozen times.
i like to own the video. whether it's a file on my computer or a dvd in my collection, i like to not be restricted by bandwidth and the resolution restrictions of the video format you would use for streaming video.
seriously jason, i would be willing to pay a subscription for ca, but i would not be willing to pay for streaming video.
while i understand your frustration this will not solve anything. piracy continues even from youtube. no matter your attempts those who wish to pirate will find means of doing so. i suggest solving the financial demands of running this site by other means.
as i said, i would personally be more than happy to pay a subscription fee for this site. i believe it would be more than worth it. if people can pay for WoW they can pay for CA.
why not open up a poll and put this to an all community vote?
Sad to see these go.
For the record, I wouldn't mind having third party ads on the forums.
While I believe streams might be a step in the right direction, you will still be able to download the material unless you've thought of some super fancy streaming method that I've never heard of.
Not to burst your bubble, just thinking out loud.
Its find it abit sad that prices are going up, but I'd probably still buy the vids.
and I agree with the post above aswell, letting adobe, wacom and autodesk have a banner or two wouldnt harm if its for the greater good of the forums.
I dont think a forum fee would be cool, I dont see alot of nubs and pros paying to post on conceptart.org when they can do it for free at deviantart or cgtalk (or other similar forums). A premium feature would be much more acceptable though, like both cgtalk and da have.
Im all for whatever keeps the forums free. Even though I would pay a small subscription to be able to post I dont know that I can afford it.
As for the streaming possibilites I dont know how it will stop piracy, maybe deter but not stop. Ive paid for a few downloads, and a few DVD's... it really pisses me off that some punks gotta spend more on porn and video games than the motivational and educational powers of a CA download.
And, even though it sucks, I can understand why streaming would cost more. I dont know the technical stuff behind it, but if they are buying new software/hardware to deal with the loads of traffic they will have to deal with. That and to compensate for what the jerks stole.
So no, I don't see a problem with subscriptions on this site. CA has done a lot more use with the forums and DA and CGtalk take in a lot of ads which is offsetting the costs. I remember Angelo of Deviantart talking about how they finally hit profits oh about 2 years ago during one of the DA meets due to ads and their store.
Companies tend to go in the hole for a bit, I've watched one of the few success stories while helping out my bf at the time launch his through the USCEC2 Annenberg projects....but I digress...
The thing is there are options such as advertisements ...partnerships etc. http://www.cgsociety.org/about/
As much as it sucks for all of us. It probably sucks 10 x more for the staff.
I treasure the tutorial files i have bought here, and i have had people ask me for them, to which i replied 'no dice'.
There is a culture currently, based around the idea that something which can be easily duplicated is of no value.And the problem with streaming is that in any form of piracy or hacking, all it takes is one dedicated skilled person to break it. EA dice spent six months making the 1.5 patch for battlefied 2 to eliminate hacking in the game. It was cracked again in 30 mins of the beta being released.
The only hope that streaming gives, is that the skill level and mindset needed to pirate the stream does not intersect with the user base. Because if it intersects at all, all that effort will be for nothing. Fingers crossed. I guess thats why the super expensive tutorials el coro mentions have no torrents, because the high price cuts down the user base to the point that those willing to share the files illegally are priced out of the loop.
To be blunt, the fact that i can draw to feed myself i owe to CA tutorials. It's that simple. And for that reason i will always support the site by buying the downloads. I have download caps, so i cant see myself treating the new downloads like the old in terms of how much i watch them. Could the files be streamed through a more secured/controlled source like xboxlive or psn?
First of all this sucks big time!! i don't support piracy or anything but i do think you guys are a bit childish about this. Face it, it will never stop!! the hackers and other geeks out there will find a way to download your streams or screen capture it in some way. taking the prices up will only (i'm thinking) loose you some customers. Do remember that most ppl on here are students that don't really have an income. sure 25 bucks is not much money but still...
I very much love the vids and have purchased all i have from this site because i want to support this as well but believe me if the vids are gonna be $25 or more and streaming, i won't fucking be paying to see them just once!!!
hope this will work out for you...
jason, just maybe.... if you'd like this to be an open discussion it would be realy interesting to not only hear about costs and losses every now and then, but actually see some numbers. and to get some transperency how you calculate losses and where you get your numbers. and how you judge the amount of sharing thats happening. you know... you're an non profit organisation after all. if wikipedia can give people transparency, because they want their money, i bet you can. it would motivate donations if you have some figures. and a goal to reach.
in addition to that i would suggest a "social price system" on your content. give people the option to choose from maybe three different prices depending on their financial situation. this way you'd enable students to buy more of your videos and professionals and everybody else who is able to pay a bit more the option to do that.
also it wouldn't be a bad idea maybe to broaden the way you try to prevent sharing. make things transparent and show your faces. show people VISUALLY where you record your vids, stress that it's non-profit, show the people involved.
also try to be pro active at the places where the torrents are traded. in a more intelligent way then sending take down requests to site owners. leave comments there. ask people to buy. tell people where they can find the trailer. ask them to visit the website and post their art on the boards. tell them you're thankful in the interest they show for your content. ask them to buy after they downloaded and when they liked it. tell them where to buy. DON'T tell them you will sue them if they share - and realy don't do it.
just some ideas.
I think the best way to discourage piracy is to find ways to add value to legitimately purchased products. Even something as insignificant as giving customers a "ConceptArt Supporter" forum tag may help. Maybe bundling videos from one artist together with a print of their work, or every video purchase enters you in a drawing for free admission to the next CA Event. There must be a ton of ways to tie-in perks that can't be downloaded.
Wouldn't it be possible to add some sort of identification to each file?
So that if some files are made into torrents you could check who downloaded it and than hunt their pirate ass down.
Easiest way to stop piracy would be to bundle a few similar themed downloads together and bundle them onto a dvd or large download. Increasing the total price.
The higher price will make people think wow i payed $50-100 for this i dont wanna just share it for free.
Also having to get the dvd sent to there house means you know there address if they share content and will make people think twice aswell.
Also you can put a special video player on the dvd that runs the videos from encrypted files, which could have unique id numbers embedded this would allow you to pinpoint the person who uploaded it and directly sue them. That would put of alot of people from pirating content. (could work with downloaded versions aswell) But this still falls into the "video capture" category sadly but you might catch a few people out who dont realise.
Sadly the world is full of bad people who ruin it for everyone else.
pirates can suck on my balls.
My Sketchbook is a WiP:
I would prefer to pay a subscription for premium content. I don't think streaming videos would solve the pirating problem at all. I think it would shrink your customer base as well due to the lack of feeling of 'ownership' they would have, not to mention the fact no everyone -can- stream video's due to bandwidth problems in areas (like my area).
yeah, honestly i would rather pay membership. and i don't feel that way about many websites, but ca is definitelt one of them. can you at least give everyone the opportunity to vote on this before you change over?
Regarding the earlier question of sales to piracy numbers, based on two of the sites I have seen that track such things it is in the range of 5,000+ pirated downloads for every sale CA saw on marko and chan's. But the reality is, the torrenting has hurt the site and damaged the community and so we will put a stop to it. If that doesn't work then all of CA, the entire place, will go pay to play. If that doesn't work then we will just shut it down and I will do something else with my life.
I have plenty of projects on my plate. Volunteering 40 hours a week minimum here on CA keeps me from most of those. I would be bummed but such is life. My happiness would be found in the projects I have that do not have people stealing from the efforts. Considering I have never drawn a penny in pay from CA, giving up all the non-profit work would definitely fatten my own bank account. I could actually focus on the other career stuff I have planned. Hopefully people will support the educational materials. I would like to continue to build this.
Those that have doubts of such things should not doubt my determination. I built two leading international businesses with six thousand dollars when everyone in the industry told me it was impossible. Before MB, there were no other companies with full production services on the art side in games. Now there are hundreds and the entire industry business model is working the way we helped set up. Hell, I have designed an entire new business around putting a stop to torrenting and I think I have quite a bit of it solved, if not 99 percent of it. We shall see if I am right.
Regarding streaming. Yes, I know some people will have to wait for the vids to download slowly as they stream in. The systems we are looking at are both global and fast.
Last edited by Jason Manley; May 8th, 2009 at 05:47 PM.
"Join us in London for the upcoming ConceptArt.Org Workshop. More details at workshop.conceptart.org .
Jason, since CA is your job and not just volunteering you should act accordingly, we can't blame you for your choices.
Wouldn't it be possible to watermark every single copy of the downloads to eventually track down the customers? (I barely know what a watermark is, I just know it's something like "digital fingerprints") In this way you could prosecute only those who actually shared their copies when you find them on internet.
I will purchase the downloads anyway I think, because I NEED them. It's just the feeling of owning the videos that changes... (I've copied mine to a second computer and a hard disk to avoid the risk of losing them)
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