Unacceptable behaviour in the lounge. Please vote.

[Ian Miles]

If you don´t agree with their opinion, prove them wrong with you work.

[spaztastic]

Aaron I would suggest saving money and learning from here, take some supplementary courses if you need to, but as mentioned hard work will get you where you want to be.

I am in a similar situation school wise, albeit i'm older, married, and have a baby, I can't afford a 70k loan to get into a good school. but I can afford 35 a month for internet and unlimited access to this site. your progress depends solely upon you, school helps to speed up the process but is not necessary to be an awesome artist.

persevere you will go far. I have been on this site since early dec 08 I have already made a lot of progress in the 4 mo I have been here. That's having to find time to draw, squeezing it in between nap times, cleaning, cooking, running errands, and sleeping. Imagine what you could do, seeing that you are still 16 and do not have the same responsibilities as I do. the possibilities are endless.

any way keep it and always work hard. best of luck.
spaz

[MidgardSerpent]

Calling someone bitter because you think her views are to pessimistic for your likings is something I would deffinately call an attack yes.

Come on now.... how can you argue that point?

Sorry, boys and girls, that level of talent is simply not there in this instance. Frazetta he ain't.

[shannanigan]

For myself, I also have family inquiring, "What do you want to do by drawing all of this?" My dad calls the stuff I draw "boring". To them, talent is a must-have or else you just ain't got it. How do I show them that that's not true? I get working and I get drawing and no matter what self-doubts or family questions come flying at me (like the time I told my mom I wanted to take up life drawing again and she told me to pick a better set of classes, like Excel so that I can get a better salaried full-time job), I grit my teeth and continue.

Again... just proves age doesn't equal wisdom. I am so lucky my parents excepted early on that I wasn't going to be a doctor or lawyer and whatever a "real job" is. They were always encouraging me with my artistic endeavors.

Hell just the other day my Mom told me I should quit designing shoes and be an illustrator. She is encouraging me at 36 years old to dump my steady pay check and to go with my passion instead of the money.

I love my Mom.

[Flake]

I want to see Madster's drawings at 16. In fact, where are her drawings now, because the only bit of her work I see is on this site is from like 2005 which includes a photoshop filter as "art"... Where's the art? The art will say a lot about where she's coming from.

Betting you won't see it.

Oh, and btw, grandma moses. And Frazetta didn't paint his first paperback cover until he was in his 30s.

Honestly speaking, and as one of his resident fanboys, Waterhouse kinda sucked until his late 30s..but damn, he got it a bit later on. Good thing he didn't quit when he was a bit crap. (he was rejected from the painting school at the RA, he kept on with it though.)

If he'd listened we wouldn't have had his Ophelia trilogy, Marianna , St. Eulalia or any of the Tennyson stuff.

Would've been a shame if he'd listened to a Madster.

[Arshes Nei]

Would've been a shame if he'd listened to a Madster.

Wasn't there that one parable about the one guy who was a banker who met his old art teacher and he thanked him for saying he was terrible so he took up studying a different career and went to become a banker. The art teacher then replied "I just say that to all my students, the good ones never listen and still become artists"...

Also, I kinda think it's silly if one person decided to quit art just because one internet poster said he should. Usually a family member or close friend might drive that determination away more than "internet tuff guy".

Or it could be madster was doing some reverse psychology by playing against your pessimistic sides like that teacher in that parable. ...who knows... I just think that one could have simply disagreed with the stance...now the challenges and name calling and screaming just look sillier than madster's original statement.

Oh good lord, where is my damn Micheal Jackson popcorn icon.

[ShroudStar]

Again... just proves age doesn't equal wisdom. I am so lucky my parents excepted early on that I wasn't going to be a doctor or lawyer and whatever a "real job" is. They were always encouraging me with my artistic endeavors.

Hell just the other day my Mom told me I should quit designing shoes and be an illustrator. She is encouraging me at 36 years old to dump my steady pay check and to go with my passion instead of the money.

I love my Mom.

Your mom is awesome. It's not that my family doesn't support me - it's just that they want me to be self-sufficient and unless my skills really get good, art just won't cut it. They're also thinking for my good and sometimes, the words are just as cutting as Madster's. (Considering I didn't get off the anime train until I hit about four years ago, which is 8 years wasted).

But I consider Madster's words to Aaron a beginning to developing that thick skin that so many artists must eventually get or else become depressed and die as a creative. Madster's not going to be the first person who's probably going to tell Aaron this - the Chinese really make it tough for artists when many families are about lawyers, doctors, and all the big bucks - and if Madster and his current teacher both say somewhat the same thing and from someone else said (that Aaron's still posting on his sketchbook), I think Aaron's going to be fine.

Sooner or later, you'll hear advice like this. It's like those great warriors of old who survive the most harrowing battles. Do you shit yourself when the opposing side charges or do you go swinging into the fray and prove yourself a champion to be reckoned with? (And some of the stuff my mind tells me makes Madster's words tame by comparison).

[D.Labruyere]

Come on now.... how can you argue that point?

I just did

For me personaly she isn't bitter at all, but I do think she is someone who would agree with Oswald Spengler.

"Optimism is cowardice."

[GaussianRaider]

I voted for you to dance on my grave.

Look around you. The economy of the ENTIRE WORLD is struggling mightily. "They" say that possibly 40% of the WORLD's wealth has simply been destroyed.

It won't be fixed overnight, and if you think it's hard to make a living as an artist NOW, just think about the world in a year or so.

Hi Madster,
I really don't understand what's the economic rationale is supposed to be behind this kind of decision making.
Economy moves in circles, that is...cycles; if this guys is 16 years old it means it will probably take him about 7 years of formation to enter workforce.
That's about medium term.
His career will start kicking in about 15 years, that's long term.
There's still no way to forecast exactly what will be the economic system in 20 years.
And if this crisis is as bad as some people think it is (which I humbly don't think will be) and the "whole system" collaps, chances are that he won't be fine even if he becomes a surgeon

[JailHouseRock2]

Ok lets all just calm down a little here,

[Dusty]

Wasn't there that one parable about the one guy who was a banker who met his old art teacher and he thanked him for saying he was terrible so he took up studying a different career and went to become a banker. The art teacher then replied "I just say that to all my students, the good ones never listen and still become artists"...

Also, I kinda think it's silly if one person decided to quit art just because one internet poster said he should. Usually a family member or close friend might drive that determination away more than "internet tuff guy".

Or it could be madster was doing some reverse psychology by playing against your pessimistic sides like that teacher in that parable. ...who knows... I just think that one could have simply disagreed with the stance...now the challenges and name calling and screaming just look sillier than madster's original statement.

Oh good lord, where is my damn Micheal Jackson popcorn icon.

Everyone has had that person or group of people that told them they weren't good enough. The real dedicated artist, as you said, rises above and proves that they can do it (this goes for athletes, actors, everyone).

That doesn't make the people that tell you that you aren't good enough saints, though, imo. Just because you proved them wrong, doesn't make them right for what they did.

Obviously this entire topic is sensitive because of the fact that everyone here has had those people that told them they sucked. Aaron will go one way or the other and it's completely up to him to follow his dream. But for a site that is supposed to pride itself on it's help, it's education, and it's collective knowledge, Mad's advice and tone was pretty much the opposite of what I'd like to see (Mind you, I've never said this site should be all about hand-holding and rainbows and pretty ponies, but the bleak outlook and overall negativity just really struck me here).

If everyone talked like that around here, it would leave my favorites bar pretty quickly.

Happily...that isn't the case.
I don't believe Aaron will be scarred from this. I think that would be a little over dramatic. But that doesn't make the original post any better.

-D

[Flake]

Arshes, I get the parable thing.

One of my fave Harry Speed quotes is

"Every obstacle should at first be put in the way of the aspiring artist, as it is only those you cannot discourage who are worth encouraging"

However, if that comes from the gob of one of the finest art instructors Western civilisation has ever produced (and a fine painter with it), it might carry some weight that prompts the chastised student to ponder things a bit, maybe realise some truths.

From a gobby, bitter, non artist. Not so much.

[Dimension]

He's way ahead of me when I was 16. I didn't even really start seriously drawing till I was 19. (I'm 24 now and expect to spend another year or two honing my skills). So the fuck what??? I share my place, I work a job part-time that pays well and have tonnes of free time to work on my artwork. If you want the giant house and white picket fence when you're in your 20's, or even 30's forget it. You will have to make sacrifices and chances are you'll never make as much money as a doctor, but you'll be doing what you love every day for your entire life and no amount of money can buy that.

Also, Madsters point about becoming an artist in a bad economy are moot points. Hollywood is booming (I've heard) and the game industry is doing fine.

Madster knows nothing and obviously has something stuck up her ass. And no, that's not a personal attack, just an observation.

Frazetta may have started drawing when he was 8, but I've heard that Ian Mccaig didn't start drawing until college. Again, Madster knows shit...

[smugbug]

This thread has reminded me I need to draw right now....and make some popcorn.

[spaztastic]

Popcorn and a hard drink at that patricia, thank you for the reminder. 12 more gestures for me YaY I will learn my lesson eventually

[Arshes Nei]

Can we change the poll to ban Dirty C from making more polls?

[Clochette]

Yeah... Very sad to see so many hate when what we could denounce in the first place was maybe a lack of tact.

I think you will dance on the lounge grave when everyone will be bored of shitty threads like this one.

[MidgardSerpent]

I just did

For me personaly she isn't bitter at all, but I do think she is someone who would agree with Oswald Spengler.

"Optimism is cowardice."

I'd say you made an attempt, at most.

This isn't about optimism or pessimism, putting Aaron next to Frazetta and saying he doesn't even compare might be the 'truth', but it's also unfair and completely uncalled for, it's nothing more than a putdown, which wouldn't be made by someone with constructive intentions, pessimistic or otherwise.

So again, I don't understand how you can argue that that wasn't a petty remark.

[richarddoble]

[Max Challie]

Yup, I'm bored of it. I'm disappointed in DirtyC's behaviour though, I like him.

[erinel]

I think madster was overly pessimistic, but she makes good points that someone needs to make. Us highschoolers get coddled into believing we can do whatever or go to whatever school as long as we want to, and no one mentions the consequences.

She didn't have to be so rude, but there's no reason she should be flamed this way.

[Arshes Nei]

I think madster was overly pessimistic, but she makes good points that someone needs to make. Us highschoolers get coddled into believing we can do whatever or go to whatever school as long as we want to, and no one mentions the consequences.

She didn't have to be so rude, but there's no reason she should be flamed this way.

Bunch of bastards telling me I couldn't be an astronaut

[Grendel Grack]

You don't have to go into massive debt for school: Finding Scholarships

Hell, you don't necessarily NEED to go to school: Community Mentoring

Whatever shit life throws at you, deal with it and move forward: Words of Wisdom from Jason Manley

CA is the best damn resource there is.

[Flake]

I think DirtyC is doing the right thing.

This is either a positive but realistic site or it's not.

Do you simply leave pure negativitiy unchallenged or not?

How about if the negative punter has absolutely no idea of which they speak?

It's like the technical side of say, painting. If someone is talking utter rubbish about correct oil paint technique should we leave that for the sake of friendly?

If this is an education site, half of it is sharing information with others but at least 20% of it is likely to be shouting down bad information.

[GaussianRaider]

Not targeted specifically at anything here, but just wanted to add:

"Appetite, with an opinion of attaining, is called hope; the same, without such opinion, is despair" ~ Thomas Hobbes

"Never give out while there is hope; but hope not beyond reason, for that shows more desire than judgement" ~ William Pen

"Hope is necessary in every condition. The miseries of poverty, sickness, of captivity, would, without this comfort, be insupportable." ~ Samuel Johnson

"We must accept finite disappointment, but we must never lose infinite hope." ~ Martin Luther King Jr.

"One does not expect in this world; one hopes and pays carfares" ~ Josephine P. Peabody

"Hope is wanting something so eagerly that-- in spite of all the evidence that you're not going to get it-- you go right on wanting it. And the remarkable thing about it is that this very act of hoping produces a kind of strength on it's own" ~ Norman Vincent Peale

"Take hope from the heart of a man and you make him a beast of prey." ~ Quida

And obviously, life is like a box of chocolates!

[Icon]

hmm.. so we could be intelligent and debate the reasons on why she shouldn't say the things she said.. we could be noble but it was malicious.. it wasn't reverse psychology crap. So if someone is being THAT malicious to somebody for no damn reason, don't give me the "tough love" crap.

I'll take my angry pitchfork and shove it up your ass thank you very much...and I AM a lady ;p

[Max Challie]

There's that Flake, but why did DirtyC need to post two aggressive threads, not one?

Oh stuff it. I'll go look at some cool art.

[Aphotic Phoenix]

Or it could be madster was doing some reverse psychology by playing against your pessimistic sides like that teacher in that parable. ...who knows... I just think that one could have simply disagreed with the stance...now the challenges and name calling and screaming just look sillier than madster's original statement.

Considering the guy had already stated that he shrugged off what his old teachers had said, I don't consider reverse psychology to be the motivation here. I get snarky and annoyed with people, and I think everyone else does...but I also attempt to maintain some self restraint. To me it's not about how it affected one person, but rather how it reflects on the site and community itself.

[shannanigan]

Us highschoolers get coddled into believing we can do whatever or go to whatever school as long as we want to, and no one mentions the consequences.

Wow... how times have changed since I was in High School. I don't remember being told I could ever get anywhere when I was in school. With exception of the Art and Home Ec. teachers. Good thing my Home Ec. teacher can't see me now... I can't cook or clean for shit. LOL!

[AdventDawn]

So according to madster if your not super talented by the time your 16 than its a lost cause?

B!tch please, I was 22 when I bought my first drawing tablet and jumped in with NO EXPERIENCE whatsoever. I practice 6 to 8 hours a day and sometimes up to 4 am on weekends. Two years later I just landed my first gig with the Art Team designing the theme for Fashion Fights Poverty in DC.

At 16 that kid can have way more doors opening within a few years if he puts enough effort, and I take offense to anyone telling me or someone else 'it won't happen'.