Painting Sikh History: Battle Of Chamkaur

[prince911]

EDIT: Visit www.sikhiart.com/for-sale/battle-of-chamkaur/ for further details of the painting and close-up shots

Hey everyone! This is another painting I am working on in my Sikh History series.
This part of the Battle of Chamkaur depicts Baba Ajit Singh pouncing upon the mughal forces, about to breath his last breath.

Baba Ajit Singh is surrounded by enemies, he's trying to stay alive while taking out as many as he can. He's gona be sweating like crazy, with a red face and pumped up muscles. He's gona have torn clothes, a few arrows and bullets stuck in this body, cracked armour, blood everywhere and a spear or a sword pointing at him from every direction, and it's just a matter of time, before one of those dismembers or even kills him! ...

Info on the battle:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Chamkaur
Info on Baba Ajit Singh:http://www.sikhiwiki.org/index.php?t...ada_Ajit_Singh

Again, being inexperience in battle scenes, I turn to God of War 2 concept art, in an attempt to gain some skill and experience painting war.

So again, I welcome all criticism!



EDIT: Sahibzada (Prince) Ajit Singh's horse has been seriously wounded, forcing Ajit Singh to fight on foot. The young Prince, after being wounded himself, notices a Mughal cannon being readied for the seige. He charges the infantry that guard it. Some high ranking Bhumi militiamen and Cavalrymen see his strategy and rush to the spot...
The story of course is based on an actual event where Guru Gobind Singh's oldest son (Ajit Singh) volunteered to defend the small fortress they were in. The Mughal army had surrounded it, and there seemed to be no escape. Guru Sahib was sending Singhs in fives to keep up the defense. Inside the fortress, many Singhs prepared themselves for death, and many defended the fort with showers of arrows, along with the Guru.

[FourTonMantis]

before one of those decapitates or even kills him!

Because you can only do one of those things at a time, right?

[Bai Fan]

The space under him and above that guy creates a weird tangent space.

Why is the head the only thing in the piece with motion blur? The arms are more likely moving faster than that head is.

I would ditch the blur all together.

[Bai Fan]

Duh, I forgot to add the paint over.

[prince911]

Because you can only do one of those things at a time, right?

oops! i thought decapitate meant cut off a limb but I looked it up and it means cut off one's head! hmm... Ok tell you what, it should say delimbitate!
http://conceptart.org/forums/showthread.php?t=140849 - this guy got up after decapitation and fought the army, or so the legend goes.

[prince911]

The space under him and above that guy creates a weird tangent space.

Can this space be removed using background elements or would I have to move things around?

Why is the head the only thing in the piece with motion blur? The arms are more likely moving faster than that head is.

Here's the sequence, Ajit Singh decapitates that banduqchi then kicks his body away. Any suggestions how I can show that here? because it didn't seem like you picked up on that.

I would ditch the blur all together.

hmm...

[prince911]

Duh, I forgot to add the paint over.

I just picked up on another mistake, the shoulder isn't clearly defined. So what you are pointing at are his traps.

[Bai Fan]

Yea, I was pointing to where I thought a shoulder SHOULD go, to add more dynamism to the pose.

I am not sure if you will be able to fix that with background elements. It seems to follow the form a bit too much.

Also, it would be dismember.

Yea, the sequence isn't reading.

Might try moving the body back up and having his foot actually placed on his chest... as in just decapitated, just about to kick away. Each action needs its own beat.

If you do that it might help your tangent issue too.

Oh yea, and I would say ditch the motion blur effect.

[prince911]

Yea, I was pointing to where I thought a shoulder SHOULD go, to add more dynamism to the pose.

hmm... have you looked at that God of war 2 concept? Would you say the samething for that? (I don't mean to be rude or anything)

I will try the suggested sequence, when i get sometime from school.

[Bai Fan]

I am not sure what god of war 2 concept you are talking about.

[prince911]

I am not sure what god of war 2 concept you are talking about.

Its in my first post.

[Bai Fan]

Wow, that is almost the exact same pose. There are differences that I think are hurting your piece though. (and I would actually say that I would like his pose better if there was more bend in his arms)

Notice how in the reference shot his hips and knees are positioned? What you have is a forward push kick, where he is doing a more rounded kick. That poses the knees and pelvis different and has much different force/weight behind it.

Also, see how his chest is more open to us? That is what I was talking about. If you want to push his shoulders back to the extreme, like in the ref then you might not be able to see the back shoulder, but his chest would still be more open to the camera (which would have more dynamism than just the profile of his chest).

[prince911]

hey check this out.
DELETED
This is the last thing I had before I went greyscale and started making changes. Now I am thinking of adding that guy (with the foot on his chest) in front of the guy getting decapitated in the greyscale version. Its like saying "your next!"
I will put up that update later this week so be on the lookout! I am so excited!

[prince911]

Also, see how his chest is more open to us? That is what I was talking about. If you want to push his shoulders back to the extreme, like in the ref then you might not be able to see the back shoulder, but his chest would still be more open to the camera (which would have more dynamism than just the profile of his chest).

I don't get exactly what you mean here but I think it has something to do with the fact that Ajit Singh is wearing armour.

[Bai Fan]

That looks much more believable.

[prince911]

Check this out:

[Wheeljack18]

If you are looking for War / battle ref than I suggest Frank Frazetta's work, especially some of his Conan pieces in particular "Conan the Destroyer". One technique that Gary Gianni Uses when doing a battle/ crowd scenes is to design the crowd as one shape/mass. He breaks the images down to masses and arranges the composition accordingly.

[prince911]

If you are looking for War / battle ref than I suggest Frank Frazetta's work, especially some of his Conan pieces in particular "Conan the Destroyer". One technique that Gary Gianni Uses when doing a battle/ crowd scenes is to design the crowd as one shape/mass. He breaks the images down to masses and arranges the composition accordingly.

Hey you're pretty good at this! I've seen some of those works, they are really good! One thing though that I want to avoid though, is having too much infantry in my work, since Mughals specialized in Calvary (they had many High cavalry ranks while their infantry were mostly villagers) and Sikhs followed (and became known for their horsemanship).

But ya I could definetly learn a thing or two from Frank Frazetta. But I haven't seen Gary Gianni's work at all so I'll check that out.

[prince911]

Hello guys,
Its been a looong time. I am a full time science student so didnt get much time to work on these paintings for a while. But I have been getting lods of time this summer and I have been working these pieces full time!
Anyways, here it is! There still are things to do but those are minor details. um.. I should probably darken the arrows in the center. There are really small and only visible in a larger version.
DELETED

[Quigleyer]

my big problem is I'm just not getting a lot of movement from this.

Everyone is standing straight up, there's no sense of urgency. Sword arm/Kick leg are parallel to the top and bottom canvas borders, everyone else is parallel to the left and right... there's no dynamism.

In my opinion you have to at least try a camera tilt and maybe rework that foreground character all the way to the left. He's just killing it.

[George Abraham]

Maybe your feelings that the dude is supposed to have a kife or pointy object shuvd up his behind is overpowering your composition. Hehe!

The problem is that you can't see a 3D aero space moving between the dude and the foreground dude. You can fix this by showing where his lower foot is touching the ground, for the mind to interpret a space it can measure creating an open channel of air that moves inbetween them. You could also try creating some more atmospheric perspective by putting another dude by his lower foot side, so that the foot goes behind that dude but that dude is behind the foreground dude, using overlap to push space in there.

[Sidharth Chaturvedi]

Agreed about the stiff poses. You also really need to work on the anatomy to pull off an image like this- the shirtless guy on the left isn't working structurally at all. The guy getting his head chopped off is a bit odd looking as well- I cant figure out how his elbow would be coming towards us. I do rather like the values, and the concept seem solid enough. Do watch your color choices as well- you've got a mostly-orange image, so the guy in blue sticks out a lot. He's the first thing I saw in the image, and I figure you want us to see the hero first.

-Sid

[prince911]

Thanks for the crits guys! I will now respond to everyone in one go.

my big problem is I'm just not getting a lot of movement from this.

Everyone is standing straight up, there's no sense of urgency. Sword arm/Kick leg are parallel to the top and bottom canvas borders, everyone else is parallel to the left and right... there's no dynamism.

In my opinion you have to at least try a camera tilt and maybe rework that foreground character all the way to the left. He's just killing it.

hmm... I will try that. Good thing I have everything is separate layers!! Thanks to the photoshop team!!! hehe
Since a camera tilt will throw some of the background out, I will simply tilt the characters.
You and Sid are right about that foreground character. I want to push him to the left but it leaves this big space between him and the three guys getting assaulted. So I am just gona leave him there.
Ok so I rotated the main char with the three people CCW by setting the axis of rotation? to the main guy's foot.
I also rotated the Horseman with the shield CW a bit.

Maybe your feelings that the dude is supposed to have a kife or pointy object shuvd up his behind is overpowering your composition. Hehe!

The problem is that you can't see a 3D aero space moving between the dude and the foreground dude. You can fix this by showing where his lower foot is touching the ground, for the mind to interpret a space it can measure creating an open channel of air that moves inbetween them. You could also try creating some more atmospheric perspective by putting another dude by his lower foot side, so that the foot goes behind that dude but that dude is behind the foreground dude, using overlap to push space in there.

Maybe...lol but I think its just a difficult piece.
let me get you a detail of that area. I think have already done what you said but maybe its not clear enough or its simply not working. look at this:

Agreed about the stiff poses. You also really need to work on the anatomy to pull off an image like this- the shirtless guy on the left isn't working structurally at all. The guy getting his head chopped off is a bit odd looking as well- I cant figure out how his elbow would be coming towards us. I do rather like the values, and the concept seem solid enough. Do watch your color choices as well- you've got a mostly-orange image, so the guy in blue sticks out a lot. He's the first thing I saw in the image, and I figure you want us to see the hero first.

-Sid

Sid you're right. My "anatomy skills" are quite low for this project. I should have at least done some studies before diving in. But now I just want to finish it and move on.
How could I fix the elbow of the headless dude? I think a start would be to take his gun away.. I dont know how to go from there...

[prince911]

Here's the update. Still working on it.
That elbow still needs to be fixed. I removed the gun because it was on a horizontal.
I tried fixing the soldier on the very left by putting him on diagonals.
i am kinda getting tired of working on this but I am gona keep going until its done.

[prince911]

Updated
Ok now again I think I am done. The critique also helped me slow down a bit at the end and really pick up any small errors in the painting. Also I think I have improved the piece quite a bit.
DELETED

[Dose206]

just an afterthought, I thought you said that you wanted to have more cavalry in there. I can only see two horses in this army, it seems to have turned out to be mostly..... vastly infantry. Anyhow, you've certainly improved the piece, good job.

[prince911]

Thanks. Well there is more cavalry. There cavalry archers in the distance (in the middle), the cavalry in the bottom right corner (in the BG), then there is cavalry towards the top left. The guy with his sword arm raised. The guy right in front of him... although you might not see his horse. His outfit is that of a cavalry man.
Now the reason why you dont see much cavalry up front is because Ajit Singh (main guy) is going after infantry, which were villagers and Bhumi. So now you might ask yourself, "why is this tough guy going after the weaker bit of the army, the villagers?"
We know that large numbers of villagers would guard and drive the Mughal cannons; and the fortress Ajit Singh's trying to defend is a weak one ... hope you got the idea

So there's alot more going on than what you see even at this resolution.

[Bai Fan]

JESUS! This thread is still alive?

Wow.

It is looking good though by the way. I think the decapitation blood needs a bit more of an arch to the spray and you could use a bit more dust and particles separating overlapping areas, but it is looking pretty good.

Maybe when you post again NEXT YEAR, it will look even better

[prince911]

JESUS! This thread is still alive?

Wow.

It is looking good though by the way. I think the decapitation blood needs a bit more of an arch to the spray and you could use a bit more dust and particles separating overlapping areas, but it is looking pretty good.

Maybe when you post again NEXT YEAR, it will look even better

LOL, yes! REmember, i said I had uni so next summer expect even more threads from me. Who needs a vacation when you can paint stuff all day?!?!

nah, I am finishing this piece this year, and moving on to others! I have spent waaay too much time on it. I want to finalize it soon.
BTW this thread's got 6000 views!!!

OK nice tips, will definitely see what I can do.

i am adding a brief story to my first post If anyone's interested.

[Smellypunks]

Still loving this, have enjoyed watching the progress.