Some thoughts on posting in the Critique Center...

[J Wilson]

First of all I think this forum is great, and there are a lot of really good bits of advice floating around in it. I think a lot of beginners and intermediate artists should make it a habit of not only posting in here, but checking out other people's threads for those great nuggets of advice. There is the occassional redline sketch or paint over that really shows some great advice that is applicable to lots of people. People get burnt out a bit on repeating advice, so if you aren't getting in depth crits, look at other threads that may already have covered very similar issues in more depth.

Also, I believe this forum is best for work that you've already made a sizable effort on. Posting a rough sketch, or even a more finished sketch of only a single figure with no other background elements, well those might be more valuable in the sketchbook forum. Start a sketchbook thread and seek advice there for those types of works and I think you'll get better results.

It's also good to give us an idea of particular areas you think you need help. It gives people something to focus their crit on. A general "please crit me" will probably get general suggestions rather than the specific advice that will help you improve.

[Jason Rainville]

I agree. I actually used to be a big proponent of this and then had to be a big hypocrite and post a not-quite-finished piece of art in here that was better suited for, and moved to, sketches/WIP.

EDIT: Oh, and I just recently found out how fantastic the 'find thanked posts" function is for finding generally helpful things that generally helpful people have posted.... generally

[Elwell]

Dweller, you've been stickied.

[J Wilson]

Thanks Elwell. This was my first time getting stickied by another man

[J Wilson]

Oh, and I just recently found out how fantastic the 'find thanked posts" function is for finding generally helpful things that generally helpful people have posted.... generally

Yeah it's a pretty nice feature to be able to look through specific people's post history and see what they've been giving out for advice. When I see a good piece of info it's cool to be able to see where else they've left other bits of advice.

[jalingon3011]

Just a thought here: is it possible to make it like, if a person update his post with new work, his post will be bumped to the top or something ?

The thing is, I would like to keep all my works in one post, because I think if everyone makes a new post everytime they make one new work, then the forum will be filled with chaos and dis-organize. However I do want to get attention and feedback for the new work I've done, and currently it's in about page 4 which people usually don't go. So is it possible to make it easier for people to see when everytime a person updates his post with new work(s) so it has more chance to get feedbacks ?

[J Wilson]

jalingon3011, there is a sketchbook forum that operates in that kind of capacity. If you wanted to use your sketchbook there for more finished works just to keep everything in one place, I'm no one would mind. There are also a few people that are doing something similar in this thread with works that are related.

[Elwell]

Instead of editing the original post to add new work, do it in a reply. That will take it back up to the top of the list. There's nothing wrong with bumping a thread as long as you're posting new work, or legitimately replying to another post.

[SoufMeng]

Since this thread is stickied:

I also advice avoiding links to ur pictures since people dont really like them plus they're made quite useless by the attachment manager.

Secondly pay attention to ur file size since people (me, myself and i) hate it to have to scroll down the pic during half an hour just to cover the forehead area of a character...

Click the preview post button if ur not sure about the size and if indeed its too big, resize.
In Photoshop, to have an idea of how big the pic will show here at C.A just zoom to actual pixels.

If ur in a hurry and dont have time to resize, just post when u have time then.

[Blue]

I hope I didn't miss this above, but I think it is extremely important people don't ARGUE the critiques.

Not all critiques must be followed, they are all suggestions. Some are more obvious then others, and in some occasions you can take the advice but decide not to go that direction. Nothing works against your interests then to argue every critique down as if you need to educate us on how perfect your painting is. Be humble, learn to take the crit. Smile and keep working.

Leave your egos at the door please.

[Earendil]

Some thoughts.

1) Paintovers are a good way of showing where/what you're talking about. Instead of typing "that one little area right there with the X, Y, Z, should be moved/rotated this or that way. Your X lead the eye out of the picture to yada yada...".

Right click, save as, open with CS2, new layer, paint.
Reply.

2) Be as clear and specific as you're able to be.

Example (taken from an actual Critique Center reply)

Incredibly Vague:
"Edge-lighting."

Very Clear:
"I think the edge lighting on the shoulder is a little too bright because X, Y, and Z."
"I think you should add a bit of edge lighting to the shoulder because of X, Y, and Z."

See the difference? Maybe even do a paintover!

3) Don't post your work and then list 12 things that you know need to be fixed. What exactly do you want people to do in this situation?

This has been said before by others, but it bears repeating and I'm sure I've done this before too...

Artist: "I need to fix A, B, and C, but what else should I fix?"
CA: "....A, B, and C."

Waste of both parties time IMHO.

Try and fix those 12 things before you post.

4) If I'm running 1280x1024 and I have to scroll to see your picture...it's too large


I'm sure I'll have more later.

[Miloh]

Hey im new to this website and i was wondering if my drawings is average should i try painting or improve drawing b4 is start painting?

[Miloh]

oh and another thing wats with the lvl gladiator stuff?

[Roselyn]

A small thing i want to add if i may.

To those who are giving critiques, please read the post containing the info about the piece you're commenting on. You might find the answers you seek there.

Thank you.

[Ito Saith Webb]

Some of my thoughts on the critique center.....


1. The good, the bad and the good communicators: It is just as important to express what you think is correct or what works well about a piece because it lets the artist know when he/she is going in the right direction. Not saying anything and just assuming the artist knows what you think or how you might feel just doesn't work. After receiving good points it is often easier to accept the things that need fixing because believe it or not we are social creatures and a lot of communication such as body language, tone, and inflection are lost in this digital format so it is needed to communicate more fully with words.

2. Learn by giving: Believe it or not even if you don't think you are good enough to critique go ahead and do so because you will be learning as well. Personally speaking I know that when I critique others' work I often remember what works or what could be potential problems for my own work in the future. In addition to learning from other people's mistakes or successes you also learn how to scrutinize your own work better.

3. Quid pro quo: If you want to receive critiques on this board then it is wise to often give them as well. If you are just posting your work but not reply to others then they might be less likely to reply on your thread. However, by being more active in giving out critiques they might be more willing to return the favor.

[Colt Seavers]

Thx for that words, I'm new here and my first attempts to get some constructive criticism to my actual WIP failed sofar as, ecept one person, nobody seems to reply at all. Guys are just watching. I usually give critics to peoples' work myself in other forums, but after I had seen what some guys here are drawing like, I mean (almost) professional standard, I didn't dare to criticise at all!!!


Greets, Colt!!!

[Ito Saith Webb]

Thx for that words, I'm new here and my first attempts to get some constructive criticism to my actual WIP failed sofar as, ecept one person, nobody seems to reply at all. Guys are just watching. I usually give critics to peoples' work myself in other forums, but after I had seen what some guys here are drawing like, I mean (almost) professional standard, I didn't dare to criticise at all!!!


Greets, Colt!!!

Well first of all it is a critique not a criticism which are two different things, even though they are connected and it is a very common misconception. A lot of art critics and art historians critique however a good majority of them don't have one ounce of skill. Lastly feedback is feedback, heck even saying what you like about a piece and why you like it can be constructive feedback. As far as replying to others threads but not receiving help well I would say not to have it as a expectation that they will come and offer feedback because that is unrealistic and you are just setting your self up for a disappointment, so the best you can do is hope you appeal to their good nature. However I also thought well perhaps the people we offer feedback on their work do not know that you have a WIP thread as well on the board so I just started adding a link to my current WIP thread in my signature. Sure I will have to change it each time I start a new project but if it works use it and abuse it.

[SlowDaddie]

I got a question

Lets say I've been posting my art here in the Critique Center because it's clearly not at the quality of for "Finally Finished" yet. But when I feel that I've completed a painting, or a series of them, would it be appropriate for me to RE POST the completed paintings in the "Finally Finished" section if I wanted to?

It would seem redundant to re-post all the pieces in the Finally Finished section... but then again... this is more of a WIP/Critique thread, so when it's done, I just want to make sure I'm not doing anything unapprorpiate by wanting to post it in FF.

Thanks!

[iven]

I have a question, a user posted:

This is a sketchbook. Ask a mod to move it please.

I have only posted Portfolio pieces,for which I need constructive criticism.
The Stuff that's in my Sketchbook is more 50's style, and more like my style
sketchbook.

So was it wrong for me to post my portfolio pieces in the critique center ???

[Elwell]

iven, I agree with the poster, the stuff in that thread is much more appropriate for a Sketchbook thread. The Critique Center is more for individual works you want specific help with, rather than general feedback on your whole body of work. Would you like me to merge the two threads into one Sketchbook thread?

[iven]

Would you like me to merge the two threads into one Sketchbook thread?

Did you merged the threads already,....?!
Would like to post more in my critique center but I think
I should wait,......

[Richi]

Yup, this forum has helped me a lot. 80% good advices. Though one thing is weird...the number of guests is greater than the number of members. Trying to learn stuff off others works without the hassle of registering. I think, the forums should be locked from visitors. Come on, want to learn...simply JOIN.
What do you think?

[sone_one]

its perfectly fine to learn from others... something people should do more often anyway, because its quite tiring to say the same things over and over.

instead i often get the impression people are rushing in here, posting up their pictures, hoping for someone to spend the time and effort they didnt feel like, and running off for a nice day at a bar. yet most problems could easily be resolved by themselves, if they were taking into consideration and learning from whats been said/shown in other peoples threads.

id hate, having to login to browse through.

[LordLouis]

instead i often get the impression people are rushing in here, posting up their pictures, hoping for someone to spend the time and effort they didnt feel like, and running off for a nice day at a bar.

I absolutely think that as well. "here I drew this, now tell me what to fix". I think the CC forum is very important in getting the fresh look and different opinions rather than a service you just drop by and dump your art and hope for the rescue.
I find myself often in the situation though where I think "oh I'll just post that in the CC forum", and when click on "new thread" I am stuck, not really knowing what to ask- because I already know what I have to fix: the basics.

I would suggest to anyone in this forum to ask themselves upon opening a new thread, "what is it that I am asking for?". If there is something that freaks me out, then it is threads that start with "Any critique much appreciated" and then descend to "oh thanks for the tip, I'll do that next time". Well, if you intend to put more effort in next time, why don't you just get books on whatever your issues are, and figure it out yourself. I read 250 pages of Bamme yesterday, lucky that I am native in German language. I think own engagement with the study (if you're self taught/hobbyist/amateur) is a lot better than turning the CC forum into a sketch-McDrive. For example, Bamme despises Loomis and Hogarth for turning away from the scientific side of anatomic study, simplifying and over-exaggerating. This read is very enriching. I still regard Loomis' head studies as useful to me, but now I am also aware of different viewpoints. Alas, study.

A lot of general advice, I found, can be received in the Sketchbook forums. Surely most people leave a "hey nice work, keep it up" comment, but if you respond and engage with the people. you get some nice advice which the CC centre wouldn't give in a thread dealing with a particular piece of work.

[Richi]

Ok...how about somebody posted something they needed advice for a project in the future. And after a few days he sees his idea done by someone else. That would mean stealing??? Am I wrong??? Of course nothing is original these days, but stealing is stealing. Simple.
And about others pictures. Well, I wouldn't know whether he/she really wants to learn or is just passing time uploading stuff.
Not everybody is a quick learner and not everybody can learn from others problems.
As for me, I don't see any thread not asking serious stuff. Some people may not know what they want from the critiques and may be confused, in that case the reviewer should tell them to be clear instead of taking a grudge for wasting time in the forums.

[sone_one]

to be honest, ive yet to see an original idea in the crit section... if you worry about your pictures/ideas beeing stolen...dont post them...anywhere.

yet i think the hardest lesson (and one reason people are put off often), is that your ideas arent as precious as they might appear to you. your personal and unique take on a nightelf-archer (what an amazing concept), might not have the impact you estimated. eventhough its your first time, weve seen it a thousand of times.

one thing that (to me) got lost, is that people who are striving to do art for a living, are recognizing that it is hard work to get there.
"how to improve on that....", yet havent even done their browsing on the forums, which would bring up some answers and more important questions.

to me it seems that this is all going wrong, because people still seem to think, that something coming for free, has little value and can be treated easily. people fail to recognize that art is a product of effort (even if some prominent pictures carry the impression its not).

most of the time to me this is like ... a drowning man asking which move to make next, thinking this one (and only this one) move is a fundamental lifesaving action, and they lived happily everafter... yet would never consider learning how to swim...

[LordLouis]

Ok...how about somebody posted something they needed advice for a project in the future. And after a few days he sees his idea done by someone else. That would mean stealing??? Am I wrong??? Of course nothing is original these days, but stealing is stealing. Simple.

I am not quite sure what you mean. You are talking about an idea, as in "I was thinking about drawing a forest scene" and later someone posts up excactly this idea. This was not what I was referring to. What I meant was someone getting advice such as "You should re-think your composition, do thumbnails" and the response is "ok thx I'll do that next time" whilst continuing on the current project leading to failure or less desired outcome, even though all the advice they needed, is there.

And about others pictures. Well, I wouldn't know whether he/she really wants to learn or is just passing time uploading stuff.
Not everybody is a quick learner and not everybody can learn from others problems.

Of course not. And that is why I don't have a makro for "piss off, you don't really mean it"- because everyone is treated as hard-working and trying to improve. You will notice that in those threads, where advice is obviously ignored (I do not mean not understood, or applied with difficulty)- I mean blissfully ignored, the work process continues without taking any advice into consideration. Those threads tend to lose a lot of responses rapidly after this becomes clear. I personally don't hold any grudge, I just simply don't respond any more. How much more frustrating must it be for those who actually look back on a solid history of illustration, animation, or fine arts?

As for me, I don't see any thread not asking serious stuff. Some people may not know what they want from the critiques and may be confused, in that case the reviewer should tell them to be clear instead of taking a grudge for wasting time in the forums.

The thing is, either this hint is taken as an offense (I am not linking threads here because for the sake of peace and PC, I would rather prefer keeping this general or refer to my personal view) or it is not understood. I find this in my old threads quite a lot. I asked for advice, got it, but I didn't really understand how profound the changes are that I have to make in order to go from A to B. The internet these days, deviantART being right at the front, suggests that learning to draw is a simple, three-step process. If you look at 90% of those "tutorials", you will find that it is always suggested with a certain ease to start fiddling around in Photoshop, apply some colour and the rest is magic. I believed this myself, and found it even more frustrating when I screwed up badly. My wall of text here is illustrated briefly through this:

How to draw an owl

The fact that every new person here has to go through the very same step of realizing that drawing is a tough learning process, will ensure that this CC forum will be alive for as long as CA lasts. But frustration (my personal) arises when the same persons after multiple responses, and elaborate responses, carry on like this. I think it is a reasonable sentiment, and I haven't found myself trolling around and being rude to others for what I might have done myself. Merely a sentiment.

[Richi]

to be honest, ive yet to see an original idea in the crit section... if you worry about your pictures/ideas beeing stolen...dont post them...anywhere.

yet i think the hardest lesson (and one reason people are put off often), is that your ideas arent as precious as they might appear to you. your personal and unique take on a nightelf-archer (what an amazing concept), might not have the impact you estimated. eventhough its your first time, weve seen it a thousand of times.

one thing that (to me) got lost, is that people who are striving to do art for a living, are recognizing that it is hard work to get there.
"how to improve on that....", yet havent even done their browsing on the forums, which would bring up some answers and more important questions.

to me it seems that this is all going wrong, because people still seem to think, that something coming for free, has little value and can be treated easily. people fail to recognize that art is a product of effort (even if some prominent pictures carry the impression its not).

most of the time to me this is like ... a drowning man asking which move to make next, thinking this one (and only this one) move is a fundamental lifesaving action, and they lived happily everafter... yet would never consider learning how to swim...

I said earlier, nothing is original. And oh...ideas arent precious. Ok, maybe thats why most of them get stolen. Even if they are not original. And please, don't think others will think the same as you think about your ideas.

Oooh...I would love to see this happening. Then maybe people will understand. What I mean.

Whatever....I'm just saying what might happen. And if I would have worried over somebody stealing my stuff. I wouldn't have posted them in the internet in the first place. So, yeah GET OVER IT...
Also, I would advice checking out some of the recent stealing thing over the internet. Anyway, PREVENTION IS BETTER THAN CURE.

I'm just trying to improve the community. Well, some people don't like that. I think.

[sone_one]

its good if youre trying to improve the comunity, i just dont think a closed crit section would do that and explained why. the rest been a rant i had to get off my chest and aint been directed at you.

[Lightship69]

Hi guys,

I loved this LordLouis "The internet these days, deviantART being right at the front, suggests that learning to draw is a simple, three-step process. If you look at 90% of those "tutorials", you will find that it is always suggested with a certain ease to start fiddling around in Photoshop, apply some colour and the rest is magic".

Your quote above put me in mind of something I saw on a PIXAR Dvd in the extras John Lassiter was asked once what software he used to make the movies funny!! You are damn right mate this is a hard game to get into it soaks up hours of every day and sometimes for no progress, your family question your sanity because youre a grown person and yet you are drawing monsters, pixies and elves.
Is it just me though or are some people just holding out a hand to the community at large and saying fix it for me, or do me a paintover to show me. Where can I download the magic texture brushes that will do the work for me etc etc. There does seem a reluctance to dig in and work at it at the moment to me. (that'll get the responses in Lol)

And you are right about some people posting and not taking on board the crits they get, and then churn out more of the same flawed stuff next time
" But frustration (my personal) arises when the same persons after multiple responses, and elaborate responses, (even paintovers) carry on like this".

Quite often (in my case especially) you have a brilliant image in your minds eye and you howl with frustration because you cant get it down on paper. There are no shortcuts with this drawing game at all! its just work and repetion and study and then more of the same.

As for making all this private unless you are a member I disagree most strongly indeed, it was browsing this forum that made me join in the first place, Plus I am guilty of not logging in sometimes and just looking to see what the topics are at the moment