Getting feedback on Conceptart.org

[Peter Coene]

three young children and work seems to eat up all my spare time these days. I wish it weren't so.

heh heh... daddy doesn't want you.

(just kidding)

[Flake]

You can also tell a lot from checking out the guys or girls sketchbook

Yup, fairly good indicator of whether you should pay attention or not. That said, there are a lot of awesome artmonkeys with no sketchbook..

It helps if you've been here for a while, you work out who talks sense and who talks shite pretty swiftly I found, sketchbook or not..

[James Kei]

ok
as an instigator of the mentor forum and a beliver in education
I have to jump in here
It is quite clear that all mentor mentee relationships are different. but I am willing to bet that if you tried it you would discover that the mentor learns as much as the mentee . if only through organizing what he or she knows.
I believe that teaching is valuable on what ever level and the more communal and the less regimented it is the more likely people will be to find what they need

I also happen to believe that contour drawings done properly make you see aspects of your page that you might not have seen other wise

by regimenting and organizing you lose the freedom to find your own teacher and level and you scare people off from trying to explain what thye do know

as it is some people are learning a crapload
and some friendships are being born

I think it is a vital and valuable part of what CA is capible of

crx

I see where you're coming from, Chaos. But nothing upsets me more than mis-information. And I'm well aware that the teacher learns as much as the student.
I'm just assuming that an artist who signs up in the mentoring sub-section is looking for very accurate instruction in order to improve their skill set. If they want to look for friends, there are other sub-sections for that as well.

If someone wants to practice critiquing, they can do so in the helpful critique section. By labeling yourself as a mentor, your putting yourself out there as someone who has amassed experience and knowledge in a specialized field, and can answer confidently, no mater what question the student throws at you. A teacher student relationship is like adoption, which hangs on trust and respect. And should be taken seriously, with no ego attached.

And yes, contour drawing is essential, but "blind" contour drawing is when you draw with your eyes closed. Which is just plain silly.

[Elwell]

And yes, contour drawing is essential, but "blind" contour drawing is when you draw with your eyes closed. Which is just plain silly.

Speaking of correcting misinformation ...
Blind contour drawing is drawing while looking only at your subject, not your paper. It's a useful exercise to get beginners to slow down and really observe the flow and detail of the contour, and to focus on process rather than finished results (because they always look goofy). That said, it's not an imperative part of learning how to draw, and you can get all you're going to get out of it in one or two sessions.

[chaosrocks]

maybe an artist in the mentor section is looking for some one who is better than him/her at some sub section of the vast art aRENA
all mentors dont have to be masters, they mearly have to know more than the student
if we all insisted on learning only from the best, and not being willing to learn what other normal people could teach us the world would be a smaller place and the pool of trained talent would be smaller. If you are a pro you migth see this as a good thing.

I understand that those who have Art jobs might be reluctant to teach others that want those jobs, but thats what the apprentice system was all about and that worked pretty damn well for hundreds of years... and assumes that the upper level masters are at a finite point. I doubt any artist will ever say He/she Knows everything and can learn nothing new. If we are not all learning from each other, even the masters and mighty lions.... I am saddened.

Ca offers an open forum to try methods of teaching, and an open mind to have these new ideas fail or flourish on their own merits. I f you ask the participants in the Mentor forum I would imagine that most of them would say their art has been enriched by the experience.

Even "blind" contour drawing. can you FEEL the edges of the pages? know where they are now dont you......?

[James Kei]

Speaking of correcting misinformation ...
Blind contour drawing is drawing while looking only at your subject, not your paper. It's a useful exercise to get beginners to slow down and really observe the flow and detail of the contour, and to focus on process rather than finished results (because they always look goofy). That said, it's not an imperative part of learning how to draw, and you can get all you're going to get out of it in one or two sessions.

There are several methods to do blind contour drawings. My high school teacher actually made us do this with our eyes closed, after staring and remembering the object before you, if you can believe that. So that's the only point of reference I have. As far as the other version, you may as well do it with your eyes closed as far as I'm concerned.
But yeah, I was pretty upset by that assignment, as you can imagine.

[Ilaekae]

To add to this mess...

Bind contours is only one of about 10 different exercises where the artist studies the model and makes marks without looking. Their primary objective is to develop a sense of proportion, which is easiest to do if your hands are going where your brain wants them to without looking.

Most results don't look like art--they may be scribbled disjointed lines, mismatched retracings, or a spider web of lines coming from a central point like a navel. The more you do them, the more predictable the results.

Over forty years after I did these exercises, I can still set a pad upright behind me and using a pencil, behind my back, divide the paper into pretty much any number of grid sections I want with a fair degree of accuracy. That's called hand-eye coordination.

[James Kei]

To add to this mess...

Over forty years after I did these exercises, I can still set a pad upright behind me and using a pencil, behind my back, divide the paper into pretty much any number of grid sections I want with a fair degree of accuracy. That's called hand-eye coordination.

[sarcasm] Ilaekae, the best way to improve hand eye cordination is to play Counter Strike. [/sarcasm]

[Ilaekae]

Not if you're not an immature idiot who would rather work than play games preprogramed by somebody else...



...actually...after thinking about it, unhooking a 1960s bra with one hand in the dark teaches better coordination than playing some game...

[chaosrocks]

hmmm playing a computer game is a better way to learn to compose art ..than um making marks on paper.

I'd like to b eyour mentee... except I don't play games

[James Kei]

Heh, I just realized that I'm the youngest person in this room by a longshot.
Right O'. Carry on then.

[sarcasm] I think we need sarcasm brackets, for those that just don't get it. [/sarcasm]

[Justin.]

Not the youngest anymore James =P (do you play source or older?)

Chiming in about blind contours.

Doing them literally blind seems like a completely useless exercise, but I've learned tremendous amounts while staring at a subject but not at the paper. It helps to focus observation for me so I can look at edges and planes alot better. It also helps me with line confidence. But hot DAMN does it waste sketchbook pages like hell.

[James Kei]

Yeah, literally blind was interesting exercise in this Jedi sort of way. But it was exactly that. Fantasy.
If you feel that any sort of blind contour drawing helps you improve, than go for it. I suppose it works in a placebo sort of way.

I play Source, but mostly DoDS. (I challenge any one to out snipe me. ) I still play CS every now and then.

[Ilaekae]

I can do Pong...a little...

[Mike Corriero]

All I'm sayin' is that a potential mentor should apply, and that there should be a committee to decide on who will be a mentor.
I'm grateful that there is a mentor sub-section, but a I think a filtering process would clean things up a bit.

Out of Curiosity, who do you suppose/propose would be a good choice for this "committee"?

I couldn't possibly see how one would be judged, or how someone would have to apply to offer up free information and advice. Not to mention, I doubt very many professionals who actually have a decade of experience and that wealth of knowledge you're talking about are willing or even capable of offering up the time it would take to sign up as a "Mentor".

By labeling yourself as a mentor, your putting yourself out there as someone who has amassed experience and knowledge in a specialized field, and can answer confidently, no mater what question the student throws at you.

I don't think that's the case either. People are just offering up their free time to "try" and help others in areas where the people signing up feel they need some improvement. If the people signing up are interested in learning from someone, they obviously see something in that persons work they like. I don't think anyone is really labeling themselves as a seasoned veteran professional.

They are simply offering free advice and online lessons out of their busy schedules to other artists who are interested in learning more about a specific subject. It's not to say that the Mentor is announcing they know all there is to know about this subject, but they are willing to try and offer as much helpful information as they can.

And I doubt very much that anyone is signing up just because they're looking for friends.

[Justin.]

I didn't realize the mentor issue going on here

I have to agree with James (because I've taught alot of people misinformation and hate myself for it). Especially when I first started here, I got bombarded with people's personal opinions spoon-fed to me as fact. I only believed it because that person was willing to teach me. In some cases it actually presented large roadblocks I never even knew were there.

I know what you are afraid of about the committee Mike, and I see where you are coming from. I think in the longest run, the committee route would yield the best results, and so we won't end up in a Lefield farm (no offense to you mike, just ol Rob)

[James Kei]

I agree, Mike. But I feel like there are a lot of young members who are new to the community and don't know what to expect, or who to take advice from. Like sponges they are.
Granted, they are probably the minority, but it's something to consider.
Again, I'm glad that there is a mentor program on here, and Its a great activity for both student and teacher, but I think it could be refined a bit to avoid the blind leading the blind.
I would be a Mentor, but I already have a commitment with my students at the CA school. That, and producing more downloads. Oh yeah, and ...uh, the job thingy.

[davi]

I feel that it's up to the students to do research on who they should trust and listen to.

There's no way to force a student into following a path that the site deems as the only worthy example.

Right now the mentor section offers two completely unique views on teaching creature design, and it's up to the students/community to review which path they think could inform the more on the given topics.

I do agree that the site itself should reward comprehensive teaching, and I have by giving some of the mentor's sections of their own. I don't think we should cut the head off the idea of allowing others to step up and try to teach others since not every artist needs/wants what we might deem as "the path".

[James Kei]

If people want to step up to teaching, or take a stab at giving advice, a good place to start is the helpful critique center.
Setting up shop as a mentor and handing out assignments is another ballgame.
I'm not saying there should be a single "path". There are different paths and different destinations. The concern here is how many obstacles will be along the way.
A good mentor will be needed to make it as smooth a ride as possible.

Maybe there could be a separate rating system for mentors. Let the students determine which mentor gets their own section.

Jesus, Davi. you're up to 10,000,000 posts already.

[Hyskoa]

If people want to step up to teaching, or take a stab at giving advice, a good place to start is the helpful critique center.
Setting up shop as a mentor and handing out assignments is another ballgame.
I'm not saying there should be a single "path". There are different paths and different destinations. The concern here is how many obstacles will be along the way.
A good mentor will be needed to make it as smooth a ride as possible.

Maybe there could be a separate rating system for mentors. Let the students determine which mentor gets their own section.

Jesus, Davi. you're up to 10,000,000 posts already.

*Votes on James Kei against his own will*.

So if I coerce enough people to vote on you, you'll mentor? :grins:

[sve]

Out of Curiosity, who do you suppose/propose would be a good choice for this "committee"?

You are being silly, Mike, this is for another committee to decide.

[Mike Corriero]

Especially when I first started here, I got bombarded with people's personal opinions spoon-fed to me as fact. I only believed it because that person was willing to teach me. In some cases it actually presented large roadblocks I never even knew were there.

Saying you were spoon fed information as fact is again something that an artist no matter how young, old, or inexperienced needs to filter out for themselves. No one is forcing you to accept every little crit or comment, and you as an artist and student need to understand how to recognize the good from the bad through a trial and error situation. It's like the hundreds of crits any artist would receive on any one of their art post, they're not going to accept everything each individual says just because they are giving a crit. If someone gives you a crit and you use your eyes and notice that their advice is not working then you just choose not to accept it. Take the good, leave the bad. Besides, even if someone is giving good advice it's only one take and one technique out of numerous possibilities and ways to go about improving. You have to be capable of critiquing your own work and understanding where your flaws are in order to know what is good advice and what is crap.

I know what you are afraid of about the committee Mike, and I see where you are coming from. I think in the longest run, the committee route would yield the best results, and so we won't end up in a Lefield farm (no offense to you mike, just ol Rob)

The only thing about having a committee elect the Mentors is that I feel it would take too long, in the end you'll probably find less Mentors and those who are actually very skilled and experienced will have less time to offer as well. So my concern is that the Mentoring forum would just become a dry barren wasteland and eventually die off. I also think that by turning away or electing Mentors as Davi mentioned only allows the people interested in learning a very small diversity in subject matter and in styles. I agree about the Rob Lefield comment.

Don't get me wrong, if James idea of electing Mentors through a committee worked out it would be great. If we ended up with a group of experienced and vastly knowledgeable artists who are capable of putting forth the effort and time to take protégé's down a long path (one that could take months based on an individuals schedule and the protégé's response time).

Maybe there could be a separate rating system for mentors. Let the students determine which mentor gets their own section.

I'm not sure about rating each mentor through a separate rating system, but the star rating system would pretty much do the same thing. Just rate the threads of the mentors and people will see which mentor is being more helpful or offering good advice etc.

I do think though that if there should be a committee, the people to choose who would be a part of that, should be the potential students, people who will actually be involved and those wanting to take part in the Mentoring.

You are being silly, Mike, this is for another committee to decide.

Sveta, I "was" being silly on purpose
I just wanted James' personal opinion because he was the one who suggested the idea. That was all.. I didn't intend for that to be the actual way to go. I also think it's a funny notion though that we would need a committee to choose a committee, because then who would end up choosing the group that would put together the "actual" committee? and round and round we go haha.

A Group of Artist elect the Committee who would elect a Committee that would elect the Mentors.. hmmm.

Also as I mentioned, if we then left it up to the people interested in getting mentored, it's the same set up we have now. Where each protégé chooses who they want to learn from. So then that wouldn't really work either if we wanted a committee that would actually work toward the advantage of the students.

Don't take me too seriously on all of this..Some of my comments are meant in sarcasm or a joking manner

[TASmith]

*cough* I'm still interested in a crit *cough, cough*

Really, I'm interested in a really good bit of instruction on anatomy. I guess I just need to buy all of Villpu's videos, as the next step. I guess I was hoping someone could look at my figure sketches and look for anything more specific? Sigh. I need to draw through Mentler's works.

[Meli Hitchcock]

No one is forcing you to accept every little crit or comment, and you as an artist and student need to understand how to recognize the good from the bad through a trial and error situation. It's like the hundreds of crits any artist would receive on any one of their art post, they're not going to accept everything each individual says just because they are giving a crit.

You just touched on something that I wanted to add to in regards to critiques and filtering things out. I've seen this happen in the critique center too often, and even had this happen in one of my own critique threads. If you want to point out someone's critique or Paintover looks wrong, do it in a polite manner that doesn't include mocking or belittling the person. Rather than teaching them something, you turn them off to critiquing anyone period.

I got really pissed off once when I lost an extremely good paint over to correct a lighting issue all because some one else mocked the person who tried helping me. As a result, the person who gave me the PO deleted their post and unfortunately I couldn't remember their screen name to PM them. It was obvious they didn't return to the thread either because I asked for them to please repost it. Maybe it's just me, but I typically leave other people's critiques, redlines, or paintovers alone (even if they are wrong) and just post my own instead. Like Mike sayeth... it's up to the artist to filter out who they want to listen to.

[TheDirtSyndicate]

its all about hitting a high average.
and i think CA.org hits the highest average on good solid critiques on peoples work than on any other website out there.
period.

this is my favorite website.

[Homeless Foxman]

I'm going to shy away from what is being talked about currently, and go back to the original subject.

It's a reasonable point that I should contribute. However, three young children and work seems to eat up all my spare time these days. I wish it weren't so. I visit this place far less than I would like to. When I get the auto emails 'we notice you have not visited conceptart.org for a long time'... I'm usually up to my neck in coordinating deadlines and human assets. I even forgot my pass/email for my old account.

I see where you're going with this, but instead of making a post complaining about the system of which this website critiques you could have critiqued something yourself. If the distinction between a good and bad critique is so easy for you it shouldn't be difficult for you to make a good quick critique on a piece that you think might need some help. Also you could just as easily while browsing enough that you know there are bad critiques, you could post a reply, or send them a message saying what is wrong with the critique. CA is a very open community and will take account what you say as a learning experience even if they may not think what you say is true. Your status also says that you were online just today, and in that time what is stopping you from quick clicking on the critique section and looking at one piece of artwork to critique it.

But having a large postcount of body of work should not detract from the idea at hand. I know this place has produced some brilliant people. That's not the point. I saw a few semi-literate posters critiquing work in a way that I thought was counterproductive to the development of a young artist, and ruminated on that idea, hopefully to inspire young artists to consider the validity of the critique.

Apologies for rubbing anyone up the wrong way.

I'm sure most of the artist here aren't completely dependent on critiques to improve their work, the majority of people on CA are here to learn and contribute to others that want to learn. Don't think of it as a counterproductive critique, think of it as a discussion between two students. The outcome even from a "bad" critique may be of a better learning experience that a good critique, especially if the artist is able to recognize that the critique may not be entirely correct. A developing artist needs to experience these things too, I'm sure you've gotten some bad critiques, if you hadn't you wouldn't be concerned about this. In my eyes there is no such thing as a bad critique, unless it's not a critique, such as someone saying "It sucks" or "I hate it". I'm sure a developing artist knows or will in time know to not acknowledge these ignorant "critiques".

[Jason Manley]

Personally, it would be nice if I was at least asked regarding people setting up their own areas of this forum, which i see as half altruism and half self promotion. I have stayed out of it as I have not had any direct complaints, however I do worry about what information is being conveyed.

For example, while I appreciate the amount of work put in here: http://conceptart.org/forums/showthread.php?t=110809 the list of design principles is incomplete. It is missing Emphasis, Variety, Economy, Movement, Repetition etc...and this missing information eventually reflects back upon the educational quality happening on our site. The reality is, Form still has a long way to go before he is even ready to teach, regardless of whatever job title he was given by his company. Since the pros are too busy to do it, I saw it as better than none though, given the beginners need help around here.

RH Ives Gammell said in his book that a teacher can only teach to the point of their own failings. This is something I thought about a lot when we set up the Atelier. We had to be sure the right people were teaching the right classes...and not just because they wanted to.

Unfortunately, many of the folks who I wish we could have joining the current self nominated mentors are often too busy or too occupied with professional life to assist.

In regards to setting up some sort of process for choosing or allowing mentors, that could be as simple as asking me, prior to setting it up. I am here to help, after all.

Anyway, it is of note, that we are building a large curriculum which will take the place of the mentor section, and will include downloadable content and demonstrations, but we are probably eighteen months out from completing it. So for now, I think the partially unorganized teaching happening is better than none at all. I do appreciate everyones efforts as there is at least some foundation for discussion now and there has been some good information shared. I will have to look deeper to see if any damage is being done.

Regardless, the thing I really do appreciate is the self initiative that the mentors and the mentees have shown in setting up and participating in that. Such things are what this site is all about..and I hope that mentality will continue as we grow. So thanks for the hard work, to those who have been doing it.

[yoitisi]

Jason Manley: I'm not happy with that comment in a couple of ways, and as mentor I feel obliged to defend myself.

First of all, what pissed me off most are the words 'half self promotion' and 'self nominated mentors'. I can't speak for other mentors, but for me the self promotion part was the least of my reasons to start a mentor area. As a moderator for the IDW area I noticed that many people were struggling with perspective and other related issues, and since I've been teaching that for over 3 years already, I felt it could help people out.

The self nominated part is kind of missing its mark, because all of us mentors are having to ask the moderators of that part of the forums to create us a subforum. If your name was down there, sure I would've asked you. Since it isn't and nobody requested to specifically ask you, I didn't.

As for the pro-part of the mentor area, indeed not many of them have time. Surprise, I don't have time to do it either. I do it all in spare time while I could be doing other stuff. And since I teach what I do in the mentor area for the past 3 years on an University, I think I can say I'm not the first n00b teaching whatever. Sure there are areas in which I need more training, but I don't teach that to others. That said, I'm all for a couple of 'pro's' in there that would teach.

The last point is that you mention the whole mentor area is being replaced by the downloads anyway. If that is really the case, and if you are planning to disregard all the work that is done for free in the mentor area, I might as well quit with it right away. I don't think I have a reason to continue if all my work I put in there without asking anything in return is being replaced by stuff that you need to pay the artist/teacher/MB for. Nothing wrong with that last part, but it makes what I do kind of pointless. I can only hope at least part of what the mentor area is right now is kept as is.

[Peter Coene]

...actually...after thinking about it, unhooking a 1960s bra with one hand in the dark teaches better coordination than playing some game...

wait a tic... so if 1960's bras are a source of knowledge... then feminist groups burning bras were like nazis burning books?

[Lake]

I find that a lot of the time, even if the crit IS a bad one (i.e. The colors are bad) then it'll still provoke thought in terms of the image. Every time I get a crit like this, it forces me to consider WHY they thought my colors were bad. In this way, they're sometimes forcing me to crit myself - which as stated before is an incredible skill. I'm not saying that all crits do this, but every so often a so called "bad" crit will be even more of a godsend than a good one just because it actually got me to think about my own art instead of just telling me what to do.