The Reality of Going to Art School and a basic FAQ for those considering it.

[jeremygordon89]

Thanks for all this information, it really helps me in contemplating what to do, but I'm still not positive.

So I'm currently in a lame college in West Virginia for graphic design (though I'm teaching myself drawing and painting, etc. and working my ass off in my own time), because I don't really like graphic design. I know that illustration and concept art is what I really want to do. The school I'm at doesn't even have a fine art or illustration degree and the teachers are horrible and don't even know much about Adobe or even what digital painting is really. I need out of here.

I really want to go to SVA or Ringling, I can't decide which. I have never had credit history, so I guess I should get a credit card so I can take out loans? I want to transfer to SVA or Ringling in Fall 2010, and I'm currently a sophomore.

Does anyone have any advice for me? I can't decide if Ringling or SVA has a better program aimed at conceptual illustration.

[Elwell]

SVA and Ringling both have strong illustration programs. The biggest factor is probably whether you want to be in New York or Florida. Either way, if you know you hate your current school, don't waste any more time and money there. Spend the next year raking up humanities credits that will transfer at a state U or community college.

[jeremygordon89]

I really feel like I need to get a hold of the schools and talk to admissions reps about transferring and all the classes that I will need, etc. Should I just call the school and ask for an admissions rep or should I email them to get one? It seems easier whenever schools call YOU, and then they try to keep in touch with you lol.

[Meloncov]

I really feel like I need to get a hold of the schools and talk to admissions reps about transferring and all the classes that I will need, etc. Should I just call the school and ask for an admissions rep or should I email them to get one? It seems easier whenever schools call YOU, and then they try to keep in touch with you lol.

I'd start by calling. If you can't get through to someone, email.

[Equality72521]

jeremyg0rd0n Im in the process of transferring from a local community college to Ringling. Im from texas and Ringling is an accredited school and both school are in the same regional accreditation district. If the school you attend now is in the same regional district, you liberal art classes will transfer. If you have taken studio classes at your school now, those are debatable credits. setup an appointment with a counselor at your school and they should be able to help you a little better than a phone call. After that, then email and call the other school

edit:

I guess I should get a credit card so I can take out loans?

Hell no! the adjustable fixed interest rates will murder you. Also, you would have to make monthly payments on a 20k loan (and thats only for ONE semester!). School loans will work because you dont have to make payments until after school and most have a fixed interest rate. DO NOT get the loans advertised through mail or tv. Those are mass marketing ploys that have a variable rates and are not good for the student at all. for example, I received an application for one by Chase in the mail for 10k. Only until after I received the check did they show me how much i would inevitably pay back. For a 10k loan, I would pay back in extra 30k in interest. That was a big 'what the fuck?!?!' The best help would get someone that trusts you for a cosigned loan, but that is asking a helluva lot from someone. Schedule appointments with some banks and credits unions to help you on your journey.

[Elwell]

I really feel like I need to get a hold of the schools and talk to admissions reps about transferring and all the classes that I will need, etc. Should I just call the school and ask for an admissions rep or should I email them to get one?

Call 'em up. Answering your questions is what they're being paid to do.

[Jason Manley]

And I believe YOU run a competing school yourself Jason Manley. Look, nobody is saying that you "buy" talent, passion, and ambition. I do see that statistically speaking there are certain schools that produce far more successful graduates than others on a regular basis. The tuition rate is sometimes high because it takes more money to pay the salaries of the caliber of faculty needed to generate those results. There seems to be some kind of desire here to peg all schools as being equal, with money being the main separator. This isn't true. In fact, it is the opposite. Every school is unique. Visit them in person. Ask questions. You will know when you find the place that you belong.

I didnt see this response way back but will take a moment to answer it. I do not want to give anyone the wrong idea here. I enjoyed my two years at Ringling and met some great people there, one of which is Andrew Jones who became a partner in both businesses I own. However, my issue is not with quality of education. I learned a ton there, met puddnhead, Shawn Barber and a few others who have been a part of my life and got a ton out of career services and a few of the faculty like Thiel, Custode, Cooper, Allen, and Fiore. My issue is with the price of it...which Ringling was cheaper than Art Center or SVA but still...not affordable to a kid with dreams and no money

The reality is that the grammar of art had been hijacked by high cost, profit geared companies for far too long. It was incredibly difficult to learn art and at one point someone said to me.."Jason, college only is for those who can afford it". Which, at the time, I could not. Those words stuck with me for years. The system is broken. So I got to wait to learn in the art school setting I most wanted to be in (i.e. being surrounded by artists). Anything that inhibits learning of those who want nothing more than to draw or paint or create in order to find peace and enjoy their life working on such things, is a problem. The language of art is not a privilege. It is no different than reading or grammar to someone learning to write to me. And thus conceptart.org....

It is very clear that the private art schools needlessly inflate tuition. That is not a jab at Ringling but a jab at all expensive art schools...the students are paying for more than they are getting. This much is certain. Bear with me as we will take a look at the financial details from a recent year there to get to the heart of it.

Salaries are not why the tuition is far too high. Profit margins are...and such things are important to any company. Art schools are big business, run like corporations, regardless if they are a non-profit or other standard corporate type. This is why the top biz exec there pulls around 330,000 dollars a year and why the faculty who are so absolutely important, are unfortunately compensated with relative peanuts in comparison.

Here are the tax returns for Ringling in 2006. The most recent year is available I am sure but this was the first I found. http://dynamodata.fdncenter.org/990_...200705_990.pdf

2006
Total Income (tuition/grants etc...): 44 Million
Total Expenses: 30 Million
of those expenses -- Total Salaries: 12 Million

Total 2006 Profit: 14 Million

Total Assets= Approximately $96,000,000.00.

FOURTEEN MILLION gained in 06 alone. One third of the money coming in went to profit margin...Those are great margins for the biz. Bad margins for the students shelling out Lamborghini money to learn to draw and paint and such. As much as I gripe about costs to attend private school, one thing Ringling shows with that tax form is it knows how to run a tuition based business...and run it very well it does. Much respect to the execs there for that. I know a well run business when I see one.


Seems you all have room for some more faculty and proper raises!!!




I see nothing wrong with running a business for gains, but this site has been focused on free and very low cost art education since day one and we will continue to do so. The fact that we have a school at ConceptArt.Org has nothing to do with profits and margins, but everything to do with the reality that we do not believe that students should have to pay two hundred grand or the like, to learn the basic grammar of their art, unless they choose to. ConceptArt.Org profits for running it's school are ZERO...Less than zero actually as we have helped fund it and it is taught by a slew of volunteers. We do not do that for the money or the profit...so suggesting we are no different because we too run a school is simply inaccurate.


I do agree that people need to visit the schools, see the faculty and student work, and then decide if they want to spend all the money. I also agree that some schools turn out few top people..but the best program I went to was not the most expensive...who has had it's share of very successful graduates. The best program I attended was at Mesa Community College under Jim Garrison and Darlene Swaim. I paid 30 dollars a credit hour and was happy to have had good teachers. I was determined to find instructors who could do what they preached and did at affordable costs and so I did it...even if it meant moving across the country.

The point is simple. One does not need to pay the private art schools tremendously inflated tuition and fees in order to be successful, or learn, or be a world class artist. Where one goes has very little to do with that if the prospective student is a self-learner and willing to do whatever it takes to find out the info. As said before, half the people I work with every single day did not even go to art school and they are leading the field with those who did. That does not discount education...I am simply pointing out that one can get an education without becoming an indentured servant or exhausting the parents life savings so the art schools can buy more land and pretty flowers for the yard. Every person I work with is dedicated to education and learning and hard work...every day. Neither the diploma nor the price of the school that matter when it comes to making it in the world as an artist...is about who you surround yourself with (good people are all over) and depends only on what one does with the opportunity to learn, that brings success.

Best,



Jason

[Jason Manley]

Neither has a concept art program of merit. Sorry..they just don't. Great illustration programs in both..same with computer animation at ringling...but concept art is its own beast and you wont get that studying with people who are not concept artists working in the field. Also neither location is known for games. NYC has film happening and maybe a few games groups (take 2 for example) but most the concept work is in Austin, San Fran, LA, and Seattle....and for europe Id say London, Paris...

Thanks for all this information, it really helps me in contemplating what to do, but I'm still not positive.

So I'm currently in a lame college in West Virginia for graphic design (though I'm teaching myself drawing and painting, etc. and working my ass off in my own time), because I don't really like graphic design. I know that illustration and concept art is what I really want to do. The school I'm at doesn't even have a fine art or illustration degree and the teachers are horrible and don't even know much about Adobe or even what digital painting is really. I need out of here.

I really want to go to SVA or Ringling, I can't decide which. I have never had credit history, so I guess I should get a credit card so I can take out loans? I want to transfer to SVA or Ringling in Fall 2010, and I'm currently a sophomore.

Does anyone have any advice for me? I can't decide if Ringling or SVA has a better program aimed at conceptual illustration.

[Mat Kaminski]

As a side note, and I believe this would apply with all schools, school is only a tiny bit about what you learn there. The schooling is really about (in my opinion) who you meet, what kind of prospects you make during, and how much you can push yourself outside of the classroom based on what you learned.

During my stay at community college, I mainly learned that the teachers really lack all around, the teachers are only really there to introduce you to people, and to teach you the tools. They are not meant to make you become an amazing artist in a semester or two. That is entirely on your shoulders.

Myself, I went for graphic design (which doesn't exactly apply to real art in my opinion), and at a sub-par school no-less. But what I learned there was really useful suprisingly. Just remember to practice everyday, in some fashion or another, and don't lose sight of your goals.

I'm still making my attempts to get where I want to, but I'll get there eventually. The main thing to remember if you forgo art school is to practice, observe, and then practice some more lol! Also, it NEVER hurts to ask for advice in any fashion.
This community is a plethora of resource for all things art.

Just my two-cents as far as the schooling thing goes.

[tandy1000]

I have personally experienced this recently, I quit my art school for the many reasons listed on the FAQ. I didn't even know about this faq till now, it would have saved me a years worth of tuition.

[MONGOSMASH!]

This is a great thread and topic thanks so much. Actually this whole website is such an awesome resource.

I went back to school and got an MFA in fine art after working for two years as a graphic designer. I let my parents push me into advertising even though I paid my own way through school in the military. (grew up mega poor fyi). It sucked lol (both the military and advertising). The New York Academy of Art was a great experience but not the best at career planning.

Now I'm facing a dillema of what to do- I'm interested in the game industry, but I'm approaching 30. Too old? Teaching myself Maya too. Any advice? Beyond loosening up on the crosshatching. Want to have fun at work and fun to me means drawing until the fingers hurt.

[Choob]

Very useful, thanks alot for posting.
You took a course in illustration, would you say that's a good thing when looking for a future career in game design?

And a seperate question, is there somewhere I can change my username?

Cheers,
Choob

[BANDD]

Does anyone by any chance know a good ilustration, concept, creature creation, storyboard style school in Barcelona, Spain? I've almost given up hope to ever finding anything that comes even close to it.... Or in Spain... or some place close to Spain...

ciao

[Taxguy]

Jason manley notes, "3. If you go to a little bitty school that anyone could afford and no one ever heard of but work your ass off, you will end up miles ahead of the brats at the art schools who are only doing their assignments and the normal minimal workload art schools require. "

Response: I partially agree with this. It depends on the amount of work and caliber of work given at the school. My daughter is studying design at University of Cincinnati. She is a real workaholic. She will work till she drops,which is exactly what is required by the curriculum. She couldn't work harder or longer at assignments if she tried, and I doubt anyone there puts in the hours that she does.

Thus, I would change suggestion number 3 to " do the assigments to the best of your ability and put in whatever time it takes to do an excellent job. In the event the assignments don't take that long or in the event that you find that you have a lot of extra time available, draw, draw and draw some more."

He also notes,"7. 95 percent of what can be found at the big art schools can be found at the state and community college level and the other five percent (specific connections and work experience) can be found in places like conceptart.org (see employment section) and cgsociety amongst others"

Response: I am not sure this is true. Attending a top art school gives you access to theoretically top professors in the field.After all, top teachers want the top students. IN addition, top schools usually attract the better students, which turbocharge everyone educational experience. Lets face it, if you take a class with all motivated , pre screened applicants, the quality of the work and instruction will be at a higher level then if these factors aren't the case.This is a VERY important points that seems to be overlooked by Jason. However, I do agree with most of his other points about working hard and networking.

Moreover,, I should note that schools with "big names" also have a lot of networking opportunities for the right person. If someone works their "ass off" and has good talent, AND networks well with faculty and other students,they has got to be more benefitical then doing the same things with purdunk community college. Top faculty have connections. They are asked, "who the best students are?" This is true, not onliy in art but in other areas as well. Thus, attending a big name school does have its advantages for the right person.

This was seen in a school in California,which is a computer graphics trade school. It is a small school of about 250 kids per quarter, yet, kids who do well there , get placed at top studios. The faculty connections are unbeatbable for the right student. I also am not focusing on them alone.There are other places that have strong reputations. Thus, schools with strong reputations for specific programs can really help the right kid who is talented , motivated and is willing to network. Schools with lessor reputations, might provide the training but may not provide the same networking opportunities or same level of competition among the students.

Finally, there is the issue raised by Jason Manley as to whether attending a school and getting a BFA is worth the money or even necessary.

For folks like Jason, it obviously wasn't. HOWEVER, as Plato noted many years ago: "Know thyself." Not everyone has the wherewithall, drive and ability to learn using books or online classes. Some folks need structure. In addition, I find it hard to imagine how someone can learn live drawing skills without someone mentoring them.

Yes, they may not need to go to an expensive art school where there are less expensive alternatives such as Atliers. If Jason is saying this then I agree. However , getting a BFA from at least a decent school does have its advantages as noted above.

Finally, I would recommend to most folks that they do get an Bachelors degree. There are a lot of reasons. First, you can get good mentoring from successful, experienced artists that one may not find otherwide. Secondly, they do have connections for the right, driven student. Finally, you never know where you will end up in life. I know a concept artist who didn't make it in concept art and went on to law school to major in intellectual property law. Without a bachelors degree, you will be limiting your options! That said, it doesn't have to be at an expensive art school;however, you may well get what you are paying for at these top schools IF you are a very driven, motivated, skilled student.

Just some things to think about.

[NoSeRider]

I can't see how anybody can afford those pricey colleges......except trust fund babies.

[jmccampb]

I didnt see this response way back but will take a moment to answer it. I do not want to give anyone the wrong idea here. I enjoyed my two years at Ringling and met some great people there, one of which is Andrew Jones who became a partner in both businesses I own. However, my issue is not with quality of education. I learned a ton there, met puddnhead, Shawn Barber and a few others who have been a part of my life and got a ton out of career services and a few of the faculty like Thiel, Custode, Cooper, Allen, and Fiore. My issue is with the price of it...which Ringling was cheaper than Art Center or SVA but still...not affordable to a kid with dreams and no money

The reality is that the grammar of art had been hijacked by high cost, profit geared companies for far too long. It was incredibly difficult to learn art and at one point someone said to me.."Jason, college only is for those who can afford it". Which, at the time, I could not. Those words stuck with me for years. The system is broken. So I got to wait to learn in the art school setting I most wanted to be in (i.e. being surrounded by artists). Anything that inhibits learning of those who want nothing more than to draw or paint or create in order to find peace and enjoy their life working on such things, is a problem. The language of art is not a privilege. It is no different than reading or grammar to someone learning to write to me. And thus conceptart.org....

It is very clear that the private art schools needlessly inflate tuition. That is not a jab at Ringling but a jab at all expensive art schools...the students are paying for more than they are getting. This much is certain. Bear with me as we will take a look at the financial details from a recent year there to get to the heart of it.

Salaries are not why the tuition is far too high. Profit margins are...and such things are important to any company. Art schools are big business, run like corporations, regardless if they are a non-profit or other standard corporate type. This is why the top biz exec there pulls around 330,000 dollars a year and why the faculty who are so absolutely important, are unfortunately compensated with relative peanuts in comparison.

Here are the tax returns for Ringling in 2006. The most recent year is available I am sure but this was the first I found. http://dynamodata.fdncenter.org/990_...200705_990.pdf

2006
Total Income (tuition/grants etc...): 44 Million
Total Expenses: 30 Million
of those expenses -- Total Salaries: 12 Million

Total 2006 Profit: 14 Million

Total Assets= Approximately $96,000,000.00.

FOURTEEN MILLION gained in 06 alone. One third of the money coming in went to profit margin...Those are great margins for the biz. Bad margins for the students shelling out Lamborghini money to learn to draw and paint and such. As much as I gripe about costs to attend private school, one thing Ringling shows with that tax form is it knows how to run a tuition based business...and run it very well it does. Much respect to the execs there for that. I know a well run business when I see one.


Seems you all have room for some more faculty and proper raises!!!




I see nothing wrong with running a business for gains, but this site has been focused on free and very low cost art education since day one and we will continue to do so. The fact that we have a school at ConceptArt.Org has nothing to do with profits and margins, but everything to do with the reality that we do not believe that students should have to pay two hundred grand or the like, to learn the basic grammar of their art, unless they choose to. ConceptArt.Org profits for running it's school are ZERO...Less than zero actually as we have helped fund it and it is taught by a slew of volunteers. We do not do that for the money or the profit...so suggesting we are no different because we too run a school is simply inaccurate.


I do agree that people need to visit the schools, see the faculty and student work, and then decide if they want to spend all the money. I also agree that some schools turn out few top people..but the best program I went to was not the most expensive...who has had it's share of very successful graduates. The best program I attended was at Mesa Community College under Jim Garrison and Darlene Swaim. I paid 30 dollars a credit hour and was happy to have had good teachers. I was determined to find instructors who could do what they preached and did at affordable costs and so I did it...even if it meant moving across the country.

The point is simple. One does not need to pay the private art schools tremendously inflated tuition and fees in order to be successful, or learn, or be a world class artist. Where one goes has very little to do with that if the prospective student is a self-learner and willing to do whatever it takes to find out the info. As said before, half the people I work with every single day did not even go to art school and they are leading the field with those who did. That does not discount education...I am simply pointing out that one can get an education without becoming an indentured servant or exhausting the parents life savings so the art schools can buy more land and pretty flowers for the yard. Every person I work with is dedicated to education and learning and hard work...every day. Neither the diploma nor the price of the school that matter when it comes to making it in the world as an artist...is about who you surround yourself with (good people are all over) and depends only on what one does with the opportunity to learn, that brings success.

Best,



Jason

--------------------------
I visit this site only occasionally, and am just now seeing this post. I don't really have the time or inclination to reply at length, but I feel I have to respond somehow or otherwise leave everyone with the incorrect impression that what Jason has written is valid. So- for those of you who thought I had been put in my place and left to roll around in a swimming pool full of money, a few quick points...

1) Ringling College is a non-profit institution. There are no stockholders. No shareholders. No "owners". There is no profit to disburse to anyone. Any money that is "left over" is re-invested into the college in the form of new technology, scholarships, construction, and the endowment. Beyond regular salaries, nobody's pockets are being lined.

2) Ringling College has 281 faculty and staff (of which I am one). 281! If you divide that 12 million dollars in total salaries, you get an average salary and benefits of less than $43K per employee. This isn't all in salary either... it would include health insurance, FICA, and any matching contributions to a retirement plan. Does that really sound like outrageous pay to anyone?

3) Ringling College is in a period of intense growth right now. In the last decade it has been propelled from a small art school that most had never heard of into a college that contends with the top programs out there. The number of available majors has doubled. The number of students has almost doubled since the mid-90s. In order to keep pace with those changes, Ringling is constructing two new 5 story buildings on campus. That costs money... but it is money spent for the overall quality of the experience of the students who attend there. It is not "pretty flowers for the yard." It is world-class facilities for 21st century learners. Again- the money made gets placed back into the College.

4) Although Ringling has been around since 1931, it has only recently started to build its Endowment. For those of you who are unfamiliar with this term, a college's Endowment is a fund in which money is invested and makes interest. The interest earned is used to create scholarships. Ringling earmarks a certain amount of money each year to be placed into the Endowment. Without it, there would be almost no scholarship money at all. Many schools have hundreds of millions of dollars in their Endowments. Ringling does not... which is why you will see people on this Forum constantly discussing the lack of available scholarships to attend there. Recent economic downturns have negatively affected the Endowments of all academic institutions, thus making matters worse. It is absolutely necessary to invest in an Endowment though if a college is going to survive.

It seems that Jason (and a few others) want to imagine education as only the studio courses in which you learn to draw, paint, animate, sculpt, etc. If that's all there was to it, then I imagine that the cost would indeed be significantly reduced. However... the truth of the matter is that there is a tremendous infrastructure that has to be in place to give someone a high-quality Undergraduate experience. Not only must a competent school cover every aspect of the classroom experience (studio courses, liberal arts courses, facilities, technology, library, etc.) but also all of the support mechanisms as well... (Housing, Food, Student Life, Counseling Center, Career Services, Registrar, Business Office, Advancement, Admissions, etc.).

Do you have to have a college degree to be a legitimate artist? Nope. You don't. But- there are places in this world that have created a planned and organized experiences which consistently produce unusually high numbers of successful graduates. I think it is wrong for someone to make those who have chosen to go this route feel like they are wasting their money. The success is there. The effectiveness can be proven. Instead of looking at what is a possible path to success, perhaps it is better to look at what is the most likely path.

I'll close here by stating again for the record that nobody "owns" Ringling and that there are no profits being made by any individuals beyond normal salaries. Anyone trying to make you believe otherwise is doing so out of either ignorance or ulterior motive.

---------------------------

[BrandnEwkid]

These are all good tips, but too bad I didn't get to read through them all XD

I'm a new member here and I decided if it was a good idea to post my first question here..

Okay, a little background. I'm currently 15 going on to the 11th grade. I want to be in the video game artist field which as I know is very competitive. The thing is I have some problems with the future as in, 'art education'. I don't know if anyone can relate, but I'm torn between going to an Art School, or a university where I can major in Art. The thing is, I want to learn sciences too, and bring the flow into my art, you know what I mean? Like using art to demonstrate a scene or picture reinforced by sciences like physics and stuff. This may seem like a dumb question but I really want to know, should I go to an Art school or a university where I can major in Art while getting a college education in various sciences?

[tom3167]

im joining art school soon, but im worried ive taken the wrong courses, should i have taken graphics or as taking art and design the right choice, please someone write back

[NizhoniWolf]

i can't believe the amount of poeple that think you guys are trying to stop us 'n00bs' from going to art collage etc

when i read jasons first post i understood what he said first time, the diploma (or degree) i'll get when i finish college won't matter in the grand scale (but i had already half figured this out my self)its a mile stone, its what you learn! he also implys that no-one will teach you what, YOU have to go get it from them, a old saying comes to mind "the squeekest wheel gets the most oil"

I'm actually 24, and recently realised that, hell i'm going to go for it, and live my dream of being a concept artest/ illustrator. and because i'm starting this a little late, i'm a little worried. but reading this post is just what i needed. i know i've got a long way to go art wise, but now i'm rev'ed up because now i know if i work really hard and milk every oppotunity, i stand a chance of going far!

and i think this is what this thread is about. people like me, 'the little people'. who can't afford a BIG education. THANK YOU JASON, your just what the confidence doctor ordered.

[Jason Manley]

Jim,

First, you have misread my post. I was standing up for the salary the faculty are paid. I even said you all deserved a raise. That was not a joke. Given that the profit margin is fifteen million and salaries are only 12, a thirty precent raise is not out of the question, and would put all your colleagues on far more stable ground. In all honesty, I think that teachers should be the high earners in this field...I have always felt that. My mother was a struggling college professor, prior to her death, and my baby sis is a kindergarten teacher...I know their struggle personally...Teachers deserve more...not the suit making a hundred eighty k to sit behind his desk six or seven hours a day and delegate. Granted, in Ringlings case, the suits are doing their job. The numbers prove it. Keep salaries minimal. Keep profits and growth as high as possible. I am sure your president could make a whole lot more money elsewhere...so that is admirable too, in a way. I completely completely agree with you that the twelve million number is peanuts. THAT WAS MY POINT.

I never said that Ringling was a for profit company or that the faculty were paid too much. It says right on the tax doc that it is a not for profit. Half your argument is unnecessary. As was your passive aggressive insult.

What you assumed, regarding Ringling finances was not the case though, that salaries were why tuition was high. You assumed that. Not me. That is why I made the post in response to show that even the non-profit schools are business oriented. My issue is with the way the over priced private art schools bleed students and those families for the benefit of their own "non-profit" growth and goals. They also do so at the expense of the faculty who are the only reason students are there. They are not there for the pretty flowers and tiny apartments. They are there because faculty are well educated and capable of helping them succeed. In your case you have proven for more than a decade by now that your way of teaching works...you lead the field in that area. You should be paid for it. Ya follow?

It is my opinion that the high barriers to attending art school, in place so those businesses can expand at the expense of current students and the underpaid faculty, are holding back the art world as a whole. Learning is delayed for many of the most talented because education is behind the walls of dollar signs nowadays. It is often those who are the best students, struggling for every meal, every loan, every opportunity, who end up the most successful. The current system punishes them and tells them they cannot succeed without the essentially worthless piece of paper. Great to hear Ringling is creating an endowment. Truly. That at least makes the bitter pill easier to swallow.

All this being said, last I saw, Ringling was still one of the more affordable programs. If a dept head from Art Center was in here, arguing such things, I'd have a hell of a lot more to say to them. Believe me.

I have nothing I want from Ringling or any other art school. I am not afraid to say such things because of that. Art Center is far worse..atop that mountain of theirs with their well manicured lawns. It pisses me off to no end that the private art schools have done everyting they can to limit learning to the rich for their own financial purposes and business goals. That will come to an end someday if I have anything to do with it.

The housing is covered by the students fees. That too is a business. I imagine it is quite profitable given the growth of on campus housing there. Otherwise Ringling would not be building such. If it were for the benefit of the students and not the business, it clearly would not be happening. Such is the nature of corporate schools run by businessmen instead of teachers and artists (non-profits are corporations too). It does not matter what corporate type it is. Bottom line and growth is always numero uno in those cases regardless if there are shareholders or not.

Your suggestion that I have ulterior motives is offensive to me. My actions in the art community speak for themselves. That is the second time you have made such suggestions in this thread. Your assumption and accusation is garbage and false. I am just not being paid by the company who is being used as an example of how art schools are over charging their students. Thing is, I know you too know that the faculty there need to be paid better. I imagine you have even lost a few over the years to jobs that paid fairly. The fact that you are even still there, working as hard as you must, for pay that is less than you deserve is honorable. But, please, do not assume that I am without integrity. As said...my actions speak louder than words.

I will tell you what my motive is, in regards to education. Same thing it has always been. To bring the cost of art education down to affordable levels, give as much of it away for free as possible, and to get better results than the current institutions are producing. Given the educating I have done over the years has all been volunteer, including the building of this community and the workshops which Ringling attended to learn what needed to be in their concept art program, my actions speak for themselves. Just like yours do...youve done a great job over there. That doesn't change the fact that your employer is over-priced and taking far more than it should from those attending the program.

Going to art school is not a waste of money if you can afford it. Believing that one must do so because he or she believes the garbage that a degree is required to make it in this field is the problem. This all started because I stated the simple fact. One does not need a degree to be a success. Very few at my companies do. Hell, I never graduated from anything. My education followed it's own path though and has been life long in one way or another. Learning is important. Not being an indentured servant is also important. If you have the cash..go..if not..there are other ways.



jason

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I visit this site only occasionally, and am just now seeing this post. I don't really have the time or inclination to reply at length, but I feel I have to respond somehow or otherwise leave everyone with the incorrect impression that what Jason has written is valid. So- for those of you who thought I had been put in my place and left to roll around in a swimming pool full of money, a few quick points...

1) Ringling College is a non-profit institution. There are no stockholders. No shareholders. No "owners". There is no profit to disburse to anyone. Any money that is "left over" is re-invested into the college in the form of new technology, scholarships, construction, and the endowment. Beyond regular salaries, nobody's pockets are being lined.

2) Ringling College has 281 faculty and staff (of which I am one). 281! If you divide that 12 million dollars in total salaries, you get an average salary and benefits of less than $43K per employee. This isn't all in salary either... it would include health insurance, FICA, and any matching contributions to a retirement plan. Does that really sound like outrageous pay to anyone?

3) Ringling College is in a period of intense growth right now. In the last decade it has been propelled from a small art school that most had never heard of into a college that contends with the top programs out there. The number of available majors has doubled. The number of students has almost doubled since the mid-90s. In order to keep pace with those changes, Ringling is constructing two new 5 story buildings on campus. That costs money... but it is money spent for the overall quality of the experience of the students who attend there. It is not "pretty flowers for the yard." It is world-class facilities for 21st century learners. Again- the money made gets placed back into the College.

4) Although Ringling has been around since 1931, it has only recently started to build its Endowment. For those of you who are unfamiliar with this term, a college's Endowment is a fund in which money is invested and makes interest. The interest earned is used to create scholarships. Ringling earmarks a certain amount of money each year to be placed into the Endowment. Without it, there would be almost no scholarship money at all. Many schools have hundreds of millions of dollars in their Endowments. Ringling does not... which is why you will see people on this Forum constantly discussing the lack of available scholarships to attend there. Recent economic downturns have negatively affected the Endowments of all academic institutions, thus making matters worse. It is absolutely necessary to invest in an Endowment though if a college is going to survive.

It seems that Jason (and a few others) want to imagine education as only the studio courses in which you learn to draw, paint, animate, sculpt, etc. If that's all there was to it, then I imagine that the cost would indeed be significantly reduced. However... the truth of the matter is that there is a tremendous infrastructure that has to be in place to give someone a high-quality Undergraduate experience. Not only must a competent school cover every aspect of the classroom experience (studio courses, liberal arts courses, facilities, technology, library, etc.) but also all of the support mechanisms as well... (Housing, Food, Student Life, Counseling Center, Career Services, Registrar, Business Office, Advancement, Admissions, etc.).

Do you have to have a college degree to be a legitimate artist? Nope. You don't. But- there are places in this world that have created a planned and organized experiences which consistently produce unusually high numbers of successful graduates. I think it is wrong for someone to make those who have chosen to go this route feel like they are wasting their money. The success is there. The effectiveness can be proven. Instead of looking at what is a possible path to success, perhaps it is better to look at what is the most likely path.

I'll close here by stating again for the record that nobody "owns" Ringling and that there are no profits being made by any individuals beyond normal salaries. Anyone trying to make you believe otherwise is doing so out of either ignorance or ulterior motive.

---------------------------

[Jason Manley]

In regards to your first point. Yes. That sounds like good advice. However, it does not hit the point I am making. For example my company www.massiveblack.com is of the top entertainment design firms in the industry. Many have no college whatsoever. At our workshops, it is often the case that HALF of the top pros will not have attended college. They learned in their basement or the museum or on line. Me..I got most my learning out of thirty dollar a credit our community college courses. My point has to be made. It does not always matter where you go if you have the mind and persisetence to find any way possible to learn...and put in the hours doing so. Granted, that does not mean it is worth going to a crap art school which has no strong faculty. It is wise to find good teachers. But they can be found in many places. Not just the over priced private institutions.

Connections??? At art school? There are more up to date connections in my facebook account than most art schools have in their whole faculty base. My linkedin? Thick. This website alone has every, and I mean every, major entertainment and art related studio either with members on site and posting or as visitors lurking and often contacting folks with opportunity...for free. All of that is free. Even linkedin can be used for free. The world has changed. One does not have to pay for networking like I did when I went to Art school ten years ago. Things are different. All that is free now. It is in the social networks. Art school connections are often not too current anyway. The faculty have mostly not worked in the field in years. Im sure they know some folks. That is always the case. The reality is that is not something to be paid for anymore by students. Which is the best thing that happened to artists learning to make it financially, in the history of the craft. Students must now only participate, have integrity, be active online and do good works to have opportunity line up.

Your assumption regarding quality of the private school student base is not true in almost all cases. I thought so too. I remember telling my teacher in community college that I couldnt wait to get to art school where I would be around real artists. Then I went to art school and was livid. LIVID. Art schools are filled with at least 80 percent of people who will never really amount to anything in art and those with nose to the grindstone know it and it makes them crazy just like it did me. Their faculty are mixed, at best, due to the low pay and turnover. Even the best programs are average in most areas. There are exceptions...Ringling's computer animation program for example. Illustration was another story entirely. A handful of strong teachers. A couple that should not even have had jobs there, including a figure teacher who could not draw to save her life. Only no more in my program who were at the level that my teachers at my community college in Arizona were. What you hear from recruiters is not what you get. That much is certain. For example, Ringling has a concept art program. There is not one teacher there that I could hire at my company to do that job. You see? Not one. You see any of them at the top of this site or cgsociety or any other of the major art communities? There is a reason for that. The pros are busy working and the schools with folks lucky to have guys like JMcCambell rely on the fact that their elite love to teach and learn more than work in the field.

Your assumption that the prescreening is really happening...in the case of small programs like the before mentioned computer animation degree, yes, it is tough to get in. Illustration...Fine Art...not so much. Each school is different of course so students must be very careful. The Fine Art student group when I attended had ONE strong student. One out of the whole lot of them and he is now one of the most successful young fine artists on the planet..the rest..not so much..most just gone from art altogether it seems. Accomplishment, even in the top schools, is in the upper percentile.



Jason

Jason manley notes, "3. If you go to a little bitty school that anyone could afford and no one ever heard of but work your ass off, you will end up miles ahead of the brats at the art schools who are only doing their assignments and the normal minimal workload art schools require. "

Response: I partially agree with this. It depends on the amount of work and caliber of work given at the school. My daughter is studying design at University of Cincinnati. She is a real workaholic. She will work till she drops,which is exactly what is required by the curriculum. She couldn't work harder or longer at assignments if she tried, and I doubt anyone there puts in the hours that she does.

Thus, I would change suggestion number 3 to " do the assigments to the best of your ability and put in whatever time it takes to do an excellent job. In the event the assignments don't take that long or in the event that you find that you have a lot of extra time available, draw, draw and draw some more."

He also notes,"7. 95 percent of what can be found at the big art schools can be found at the state and community college level and the other five percent (specific connections and work experience) can be found in places like conceptart.org (see employment section) and cgsociety amongst others"

Response: I am not sure this is true. Attending a top art school gives you access to theoretically top professors in the field.After all, top teachers want the top students. IN addition, top schools usually attract the better students, which turbocharge everyone educational experience. Lets face it, if you take a class with all motivated , pre screened applicants, the quality of the work and instruction will be at a higher level then if these factors aren't the case.This is a VERY important points that seems to be overlooked by Jason. However, I do agree with most of his other points about working hard and networking.

Moreover,, I should note that schools with "big names" also have a lot of networking opportunities for the right person. If someone works their "ass off" and has good talent, AND networks well with faculty and other students,they has got to be more benefitical then doing the same things with purdunk community college. Top faculty have connections. They are asked, "who the best students are?" This is true, not onliy in art but in other areas as well. Thus, attending a big name school does have its advantages for the right person.

This was seen in a school in California,which is a computer graphics trade school. It is a small school of about 250 kids per quarter, yet, kids who do well there , get placed at top studios. The faculty connections are unbeatbable for the right student. I also am not focusing on them alone.There are other places that have strong reputations. Thus, schools with strong reputations for specific programs can really help the right kid who is talented , motivated and is willing to network. Schools with lessor reputations, might provide the training but may not provide the same networking opportunities or same level of competition among the students.

Finally, there is the issue raised by Jason Manley as to whether attending a school and getting a BFA is worth the money or even necessary.

For folks like Jason, it obviously wasn't. HOWEVER, as Plato noted many years ago: "Know thyself." Not everyone has the wherewithall, drive and ability to learn using books or online classes. Some folks need structure. In addition, I find it hard to imagine how someone can learn live drawing skills without someone mentoring them.

Yes, they may not need to go to an expensive art school where there are less expensive alternatives such as Atliers. If Jason is saying this then I agree. However , getting a BFA from at least a decent school does have its advantages as noted above.

Finally, I would recommend to most folks that they do get an Bachelors degree. There are a lot of reasons. First, you can get good mentoring from successful, experienced artists that one may not find otherwide. Secondly, they do have connections for the right, driven student. Finally, you never know where you will end up in life. I know a concept artist who didn't make it in concept art and went on to law school to major in intellectual property law. Without a bachelors degree, you will be limiting your options! That said, it doesn't have to be at an expensive art school;however, you may well get what you are paying for at these top schools IF you are a very driven, motivated, skilled student.

Just some things to think about.

[Jason Manley]

im joining art school soon, but im worried ive taken the wrong courses, should i have taken graphics or as taking art and design the right choice, please someone write back

Tom it is impossible to answer that if you do not tell us what you want to do and what you are studying. The answer is simple though, at least in a general sense. Study where you can find the best teachers and students in your particular area of interest. If you don't know what you want, and are still figuring that out, and have little money...spending two years at a community college taking generals and basic foundations (which transfer in many cases)...and exploring so you find your path...will help point you in the right direction. No sense blowing your families hard earned money, or your own, on a program you are not sure about. The investment is high. Use your money wisely.

[Jason Manley]

Depends on the school. ASU in Tempe has a horrid art program. Id never wish anyone on that uni. However, just do your research. Find a school with strong faculty in both areas (their works will show you the truth) and go there if you can afford it. You have more research to do. USC has both I think. UCLA too. I would check schools which have programs in both areas and decide from there. Otherwise you can focus on art and then do your personal studies in the sciences perhaps. You should do more research.

These are all good tips, but too bad I didn't get to read through them all XD

I'm a new member here and I decided if it was a good idea to post my first question here..

Okay, a little background. I'm currently 15 going on to the 11th grade. I want to be in the video game artist field which as I know is very competitive. The thing is I have some problems with the future as in, 'art education'. I don't know if anyone can relate, but I'm torn between going to an Art School, or a university where I can major in Art. The thing is, I want to learn sciences too, and bring the flow into my art, you know what I mean? Like using art to demonstrate a scene or picture reinforced by sciences like physics and stuff. This may seem like a dumb question but I really want to know, should I go to an Art school or a university where I can major in Art while getting a college education in various sciences?

[Jason Manley]

This is a great thread and topic thanks so much. Actually this whole website is such an awesome resource.

I went back to school and got an MFA in fine art after working for two years as a graphic designer. I let my parents push me into advertising even though I paid my own way through school in the military. (grew up mega poor fyi). It sucked lol (both the military and advertising). The New York Academy of Art was a great experience but not the best at career planning.

Now I'm facing a dillema of what to do- I'm interested in the game industry, but I'm approaching 30. Too old? Teaching myself Maya too. Any advice? Beyond loosening up on the crosshatching. Want to have fun at work and fun to me means drawing until the fingers hurt.

too old? no.

advice yes. make your portfolio for the targeted job. Get some videos from the various places offering them. Bone up. Do it.

[Demo]

Jason thank you for all the information and work your putting into this thread, I'll be starting art school next month at Herron School of Art and Design, http://www.herron.iupui.edu/ ,
It was about all I could afford, passing up a full ride to a community college with 1 art room with 2 easels. Even though i was warned from Elwell to try to get out of Indian for art education, What your posting is making me feel a lot better about college so it looks like ill just keep the nose to the grind and make the most i can with these next four years and receive the education i need instead of whats convenient or just given to me.

I was kind of worried about what contacts i would be able to find given that Herron Has nothing close to Game/ Movie/ what ever design but you seemed to cover that also.

I guess the only question i have left before going is because Herron doesn't offer a degree in Illiustration (although you can take specific classes related to the field and receive a 'General Fine Arts Degree') or could get a Degree in Painting, where id take more painting classes but id supplement it with Illustration classes. I'm asking because id like to get a job in the gaming ..or similar industry and was just wondering if one would help or hurt in either way, i realize that the degree means shit but would like your input??

[Fallout]

Hello Mr. Jason. Just a question - Is it ok to go to an atelier/academy (where the programs are generally geared more towards fine art) and still become an illustrator? Don't the same foundations still apply, as long as I take care of the business side of things and adjust my portfolio?

Main reason why I ask is that there are very few art-schools around where I live and these few take up a lot of time focusing on abstract art and abstraction in itself, which doesn't interest me at all. I will be relocating to another country pretty soon, but I can't afford a $70000+ illustration program from an art-school. Thanks for reading!

[Jason Manley]

Yes.

The issue that most ateliers have is that they are too heavily geared toward only creating from life. Often times the imaginative work does not come until the fourth year of the program. This leads to a horde of artists coming out without idea development, communication or narrative skills. Illustration is about one thing...communication of idea.


The solution we use at the Next Gen Atelier is to balance the hard core academic approach with that of imagination and digital work. It is our belief that artists should divide their studies down the middle between working from life and that of imagination when doing their studies.

The other issue is business related, which is often a weak point at the ateliers, as you noted. Yes that is an important area to prepare for.


Jason

Hello Mr. Jason. Just a question - Is it ok to go to an atelier/academy (where the programs are generally geared more towards fine art) and still become an illustrator? Don't the same foundations still apply, as long as I take care of the business side of things and adjust my portfolio?

Main reason why I ask is that there are very few art-schools around where I live and these few take up a lot of time focusing on abstract art and abstraction in itself, which doesn't interest me at all. I will be relocating to another country pretty soon, but I can't afford a $70000+ illustration program from an art-school. Thanks for reading!

[Jason Manley]

demo the answer is this...study game development and entertainment design on your own. Some of us have Fine Art backgrounds, others have illustration backgrounds, some have no school at all. The thing is to really work on your studies of the industry you want to be in outside of class. Class work is at best practice. It is what you do outside that counts toward going to your career. No employer wants a load of average class assignments in their artists portfolios. Tailer your personal work toward that of your career path and you can at least have some stuff directly related to the job at hand when you hit the market.

[artpersists]

I dont think I have commented on this thread, but I just wanted to say thank you for such great information. I have been thinking of applying to art school and didnt know if i should apply to those big schools or if any school will do. I think this thread gave me a lot of perspective on things. Thank you very much. I hope whatever people chose it turns out for the best. At least, thats what Im hoping for myself.

[Jason Manley]

it is not that ANY school will do. You need to go see the faculty work and the student work if you can. If the faculty can't draw and paint well and that is what you want to do then that is the wrong program for you. For example, when I was in school not so long ago, the drawing program at ASU was rancid. However three miles down the road the drawing program at Mesa Community College was excellent (better than the private programs I attended who were twenty times the price). My point is NOT that any school will do...point is there are more affordable solutions than shelling out 100k for your learning.