Sorry to break the rules, but I really need some direction on this, Paint over?

[Spiralfish]

Sorry to break the rules, I know WIP's are not allowed here, However I really feel like I need some direction in terms on where it's going.

This is an environment piece, It's missing alot of detail such as the artillery on the ship, and cranes, people, and other thing on the docking areas.

However, I feel like it's missing something in the larger effect of the picture.

Among a multitude of other things i feel like it's lacking mood....

Any and all advice regardingANYTHING IN THIS PICTURE will be highly appreciated...

Paint overs to help me with lighting composition, whatever is going to be very helpful.


Please Please point out as much as you can..... PLease...

At this point, I can still fix it...

Thank you!

[Elwell]

One possible issue is that, despite the high viewpoint, you seem to be sticking to two-point perspective. If you introduce some three-point distortion it will emphasize the drama and feeling of space.

[Spiralfish]

One possible issue is that, despite the high viewpoint, you seem to be sticking to two-point perspective. If you introduce some three-point distortion it will emphasize the drama and feeling of space.

Great Call... Prespective is definitely one of my weaker points.

Thanks for the fix, it's surprising to me that one thing could have such dramatic results.

I wish I would have identified this problem when I was starting the picture.

I seem to have this problem frequently, no matter how much I try to draw cool futuristic subjects, the scene it's self lacks drama.

Thank you so much for taking the time to do this for me.

[spacehamster]

I get the impression that you haven't given enough thought to your lighting, and that's why the piece comes off lacking in the drama department. For a static scene such as this, lighting is what makes or breaks the piece. What I would do is add some lights in the green area under the ship, maybe some tech stuff that lights the scene from below and casts shadows on the walls.

[YVerloc]

Paintover for you, below.

Don't skip ahead - get a good layout done in perspective first. Use a perspective guide if you need to. There are lots of ways of making them. I make mine by stretching a few single point perspective wheel-things.

For the composition - I didn't change much, except follow Elwell's excellent advice about the third vanishing point.

As for the tech, it's a bit simple. To give the ship and the hangar realism and scale, you need to generate a certain level of tech-clutter. This is why good perspective is key - you can't build all that neat clutter on top of shaky foundations.

Cheers

[spacehamster]

Hahaha, when I saw YVerloc's name on this thread, I knew there was going to be another massive "paintover"... awesome stuff, man. Seriously though, how long do these things take you?

[YVerloc]

Hard to say. I get interrupted a lot to change my son's diaper and kiss the wife good night and read stupid news on Fark. This took longer than most - maybe even over three hours. It always takes me longer when I start with linework, because it's such a pain to paint the lines down. Usually I just start blocking out shapes and do whatever I can in an hour or two.

[ori]

god YVerloc, this is great !

very nice

[Spiralfish]

YVerloc

Wow.. Im speechless to say the very least. Thank you so much for all the work you put into this. Im very honored by put so much into sharing your expertise and helping me hone my skills.

You really pulled off the mood, sense of space, and style I was going for.

A couple questions.

1. You seem to have a number of light sources in here, as far as I can tell you have a diffuse top down light and some light along the wall (in the black andwhite pic,) with a number of spot lights (in the final).

How do you keep track of appropriate shadow placement? I feel like something that really adds to the mood is the interplay between the softly lit areas and the hard edges of shadow. How do you identify areas that would have a sharp shadow from areas of more subtle shadow

2. I really like the texture and the sense of fragmentary light that you have in the last image.. I actually looked at some references on how to get that effect but was unable to pull it off, do you have any suggestions for

3. You have alot of Techo Clutter that have their own distinct forms, do you have any suggestions for how to quickly define these things? Drawing details in clutter always take me a very long time. but you seem to have very convincing form in just a few strokes (like the fins of the ship and the windows) how can I streamline my process?

4. Im fairly new to enviroment drawings, as a beginner, what are some things I can do (like simple studies maybe?) That will help me get a better understanding of space.



Your method for quickly laying out prespective lines is and will be extremely helpful for me in the future, as I didnt know it could be done so simply and spent a long time on this image drawing out prespective lines by hand.


Thank you So So much for taking the time to share your expertise. I can tell you how helpful it is to see your process and what I could do with this image.

[Spiralfish]

Oh Also,

Don't skip ahead - get a good layout done in perspective first. Use a perspective guide if you need to. There are lots of ways of making them. I make mine by stretching a few single point perspective wheel-things.

Is this a feature in photoshop? Where can I find out more about this?

[Fenster]

Yeah, I would also like to know more details about how you created that perspective mapping in photoshop(?) is that a shape you can create, or some kind of plugin or what?

[ATAnderson]

I'm not aware of this as a function, but I still use PS7 so mabye they have one by now.

in photoshop:-

make a ney layer/new document
Line tool (U) with 'fill pixels' selected at top of screen
draw a straight line (hold shift to constrain)
duplicate the layer
Ctrl T for free transform, hold shift and rotate it one click
Ctrl E to merge the layer down.
duplicate the layer, repeat the process until you have a full web of lines.

place 2 of the webs on your horizon line and use free transform again (Crtl T) and stretch them as required.

Search the forums for 2 & 3 point perspective drawing for proper/ideal placement of the VPs.

Hope this makes sense.

& if this is a long way about going about something please let me know.

ATA

[YVerloc]

That's exactly the way I did it. I made mine 4k*4k and keep it handy. Whenever I need to make a perspective guide, I paste three of them into my empty image on separate layers and move them and stretch them until I get the grid I want.

Scott Robertson teaches a perspective method that uses either measuring lines or straight path segments. I think he's got a tutorial out there somewhere for it. It's got a lot of advantages, but I hate monkeying around with vectors so I don't use it myself.

[YVerloc]

How do you keep track of appropriate shadow placement?

I don't - I'm faking. This is one of the first times I've tried doing a scene lit by lots of different task lights, and I was figuring it out as I went along. The opportunity to try this out is one of the things that attracted me to your concept. I should really have tried to stack multiple shadows on the front side of the ship - that's what would happen of it was lit by several spots aimed from different directions. But frankly I chickened out. Next time...

You have alot of Techo Clutter that have their own distinct forms, do you have any suggestions for how to quickly define these things?

Nothing solid, just cheap gimmicks. I like to use a flattened brush like a chisel, to pull out 'facets' of the surface. Even when I have no idea what the heck is going on with the structure I'm painting, the chisel effect can be quite convincing. A good silhouette goes a long way in terms of selling detail. If the silhouette says "I'm made up of big cylindrical sections, with occasional bands of crunchy detail", then all you have to do, really, is fill in that silhouette with some smooth cylindrical highlights, and a few bands of crunchy faceted highlights, and bob's you uncle as they say. Attached is an ultra quick demo of what I mean.

Im fairly new to enviroment drawings, as a beginner, what are some things I can do (like simple studies maybe?) That will help me get a better understanding of space.

I wrestle with that myself. When it comes to drawing figures or vehicles, you kind of know what a 'sketch' is. You can tell if a figurative illustration or a car illustration is working with very little initial investment. For figurative stuff, sketches can take as little as a few minutes - even for peices that may take several weeks to finalize. Environments seem a lot different. By the time you've got a sketch that convinces you that the space is working the way you want it to, you might be almost 50 percent of the way finished. A much higher investment.

Moving a character's head or hand in a sketch - no problem. A couple of scribbles and it's done. But moving walls in a sketch of an interior space can be a major hassle. Interior space is just hard to do. I sometimes mock up spaces in 3d - Sketchup is really good for doing this. All you can really do is to study the spaces you see everyday, and try to analyze which ones work and why, so that you'll go down less dead ends.

Cheers

[kev ferrara]

YVerloc, I don't know you, but I consider you a true friend! Each post you put on here was a revelation to me... stuff I've been wondering about for years. Thank you so much.

kev

http://www.conceptart.org/forums/sho...d.php?t=101106

[Steph Laberis]

Yverloc, were it in my power to put a big ol' blinkin' eyeball next to your user name, I would. Thank you for going so above and beyond. I've bookmarked this thread, since my AD has been nagging me about my non-existent perspective skills for the last 2 weeks.

[Spiralfish]

Wow, I dont know how to thank you. I think "above and beyond" is an understatement for the time and effort that you selflessly invested to teach this newbie.

I like to use a flattened brush like a chisel, to pull out 'facets' of the surface. Even when I have no idea what the heck is going on with the structure I'm painting, the chisel effect can be quite convincing. A good silhouette goes a long way in terms of selling detail. If the silhouette says "I'm made up of big cylindrical sections, with occasional bands of crunchy detail", then all you have to do, really, is fill in that silhouette with some smooth cylindrical highlights, and a few bands of crunchy faceted highlights, and bob's you uncle as they say. Attached is an ultra quick demo of what I mean.

This along with the attached example image is possible the best explanation Ive found for this technique. Ive seen the end result of this technique in many different places (I was always mystified by how artist managed to such a faceted and composite brushwork on the end result.), but youre your clear and concise example goes miles in helping me to understand the step by step.


Thank you, Thank you so much for taking so much time to help me out.

Youve given me alot to go on, and I really look forward to trying these techniques and reworking this image in the coming days.

Thank you, Thank you so much...

Love ya.

[Spiralfish]

Oh, and thanks for explaining the perspective thing, I had alot of trouble using the perspective filter, but the grid method is great.

I would i knew about this earlier, I have a whole slew of older pieces with awkward and uneasy background prespective.

[Sept13]

Cool paintover, great advises. Great work YVerloc!

[Bones Weep Tedium]

What a great paintover: Spiral Fish, if you don't improve after the crit you recoeved in this thread then I would be much surprised.

Thanks for the tip on the perspective map, looks like it'll solve a lot of problems quickly.

[kingshaj]

cool start!
amazing paintovers!

a thought regarding your own re-working of this image..

regarding thie light source...perhaps almost all the light could come form the inside of the ship (the yellow) as though there is a warm cozy bridge inside
and the dock itself is cold and lifeless
a strong single light source like a warm fireplace feeling.

this seems like where you were intuitively heading to begin with. and i only suggest this as a way to gain that narative drama you mentioned.

MY CA SB
http://conceptart.org/forums/showthread.php?t=80790

[ChaoticKnight]

Yverloc, your my hero.
I'm bookmarking this page.... holy crap.

[balfek]

me too. I always make a grid in 3D when I'm under rreally tight deadline and build on top of it. Then I feel cheap and whorish. Thanks for improving my future virtue, yverloc!

[brianhamner]

We need a yverloc's paintover thread.

[codenothing]

Yverloc rules!

and to answer the 'clutter' question, geting lots of cool clutter and objects with only implying brush strokes is realy just learned with experience. I think the best way to get this experience is to do quick implied paintings of real life scenes, or photographs. Its very hard for your brain to 'make up' clutter shapes when you have no mental library of them, so doing fantasy pieces like this its going to be harder to make up convincing clutter and objects that look like they belong.

as for the light and shadows, some guidelines, but not steadfast rules necisaraly:

-for small lights, like the ones on the wall, their life 'radius' is very short. Only the objects very close to them need to be considered for light and shadow.

-On the other hand, reflective surfaces, like polished metal, or water,do need to reflect that light when apropriate, even if the light is very far away, and not 'casting' on the surface at all. This isnt illumination, its reflection, which gets tricky, and is very dependent on the surface quality.

-Shadows are generaly sharp when the shadow doesnt fall far from the object. Shadows blur more and more the farther they have to cast.

-Direct 'spot' light's generaly hold much sharper shadows. ambient and 'florescent' light are almost always soft and fuzzy.

-shadows are usualy tinted the complement color of the light source.



again painting from real life, or from photos will realy help you understand these princepals and once your mental library is armed with the experience youll have no problem bringing it into fantasy environments and making it look real.


Rock on!

[Pau1Winslow]

Holy hell.. I've taken so much in just by reading through this thread. Throwing that third perspective point had such an impact on the image, gave it a lot of height and drama.

[Paul Scott Canavan]

Blimey Yverloc, that's a nice paintover. Bookmarked.

[Zaphod]

Wow. Great thread! I would add a suggestion. As an exercise, squint _very far_ down and look at the original picture at the top of the thread, then look at yverloc's. Yverloc's is much more unified. The same goes if you look at the cylinder thingie, the original silhouette and the final have almost the same value span. The highlights help show the strong outline. I think this is a great lesson as well. First get your drawing going, then focus on getting your values right and hue/temperature don't matter as much (compared to the former two).

[Sinaz]

Spiral: have you reworked your image yet?

[Robz]

dude i just saw that paintover and... holy mother of god.