References about Pricing

[Qitsune]

Since 3 out of 4 threads in the employment discussion is a question about how much to charge for a job, I decided to make a sticky about pricing advices.

You pros are invited to contribute to it, that way we can point posters to it rather than repeat the same info 36 times a week.

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My first tip is to get this book Graphic Artist's Guild Handbook Pricing & Ethical Guidelines (http://www.amazon.ca/Graphic-Artists-Handbook-Pricing-Guidelines/dp/0932102123/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/702-0909285-7343204?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1178617293&sr=8-1)

Product description from Amazon
The most respected single reference for buyers and sellers of creative work returns in an updated ninth edition, containing the latest, essential information on business, pricing, and ethical standards for nearly every discipline in the visual communications industry--from advertising to publishing to corporate markets.
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My second tip is if you are not from North America, look into local artists associations an guilds they often have pricing guidelines, even if these are not as comprehensive as the GAG handbook.
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My third tip is in case what you are doing is not listed in the book or you simply don't have the book. Evaluate the time the job will take you, add time for revisions, decide on a per hour rate, multiply it by the time you will need. Then evaluate the materials needed, add to the amount for time or quote separately. There you are. It's probably the best way to rate jobs like game assets or portrait commissions. Log the time you spend on project so that you can better evaluate the time you need later for similar assignements.
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My fourth tip is not so much about the price per say. Make a quote template with your terms of services on it and a personalized letterhead. Stating the rights you give for that price and your payment terms upfront looks professional.
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Fifth tip, especially if you are working for a non-start-up company, try to make your client make an offer, you could be surprised that he offers more than you wanted to ask. The worst that can happen is that you have to make a counter offer, if they think it's too high, they would have thought that even if you had made the quote first anyways.

[emily g]

This is a great idea Qitusne! Thanks for making this.

Here's a couple of links I have:
Estimate tutorial (http://198.173.235.195/estimatetutorial.html)
This tutorial goes through general considerations you should make (hours, materials, usage, etc.) when determining an estimate.

Creative Business (http://www.creativebusiness.com/)
This website has useful free sample forms (http://www.creativebusiness.com/forms.lasso) such as this Estimating Worksheet (http://www.creativebusiness.com/action.lasso?-response=details.lasso&-token.Ctype=form&-token.fid=76&-nothing).

[Beelow]

Thanks for sharing Emily! XD

[kendi]

thanks so much quitsune

[Verithin]

Just found this, it should offer some good book-ends for those who are struggling to figure out what to charge. ***I would guess that the fees / rates quoted are for seasoned illustrators so, if you're starting out, you may want to drop the fee by 20 - 30% (potentially... it's your call).

http://www.theaoi.com/Mambo/index.php?option=content&task=view&id=409&Itemid=33

[Elwell]

Please note that
Those prices are in British pounds, so be sure to convert for your currency.
Rates tend to be lower in Europe than America.
Those are a few years old.

[Verithin]

Elwell...

Thanks for the heads-up, I was guessing they were in pounds. So... after conversion what % would you increase the rate by for today's market?

Conversion formula would be:

X listed rate / 50% (around) ='s Y

Y x (Elwell %) = Z

Z + Y ='s rate you should charge (ballpark).

That make sense?

[Quazi]

I find it particularly interesting that they take an 8 hr day and subtract 1 hr for lunch. At every company I've worked for, you're there for 9 hrs and take 1 hr for lunch to total 8 hrs of work. Is that different in different countries?

Of course, I've heard of some companies keeping you for 9 hours and complaining if you take a lunch, but no company I would work for...

[Qitsune]

It all depends on where you work, I've had weeks varying from 35, 37.5 or 40 hours a week that were all considered "full time" for the company where I was. YOU decide how many hours a week you want to work..

[FlipMcgee]

Just adding this link to this thread:

http://freelanceswitch.com/rates/

[atlsouthpaw]

It all depends on where you work, I've had weeks varying from 35, 37.5 or 40 hours a week that were all considered "full time" for the company where I was. YOU decide how many hours a week you want to work..

Is there such a thing as a 40 hour week? When I'm on a project (especially movies) there are no set hours. You are expected to just do your job and do it well for as long as it takes (most of the time 60-80 hour weeks 6-7 days a week for a few months at a time on films). I find that most freelance is that way. At least mine has been. Of course you are compensated handsomly for all your time and work so you can't complain. In a perfect world all shoot for 40 hour weeks ;-). Ahhhhh.......to be a banker.......Just my 2 cents for what it's worth (which may be nothing :-))....

Craig

[Qitsune]

This is advice on calculating rates, not on actually getting the work done, I might not have been clear. If you set your fees to be comfortable working 40 hours a week but end up working 80 because the project requires it, you'll be twice as rich won't you? My point is, don't lower your rates because you work more than a standard "shop" schedule and end up doing the same money at the end. Hard work should have fitting compensation. And when doing freelance casual game art I rarely if ever crunch.

[atlsouthpaw]

Good point and good advice.

Craig

[Chermilla]

Wow great thread!! I'm hoping to become a Free Lance artist soon so this info is all really handy, bookmarked!!!

Cheers!

Cx

[JL.Alfaro]

I just found this, PAGE RATES FOR INDEPENDENT PUBLISHERS AND STUDIOS (http://www.thecomicblurb.com/2007/02/24/page-rates-for-independent-publishers-and-studios/) doesnt really apply to conceptual art, but theres a few comic artists around here.

-JL

[Mohd.N]

thanx for everyone's inpuit here.its a big help for freelance artists.

[Dartalis]

THANKS ALL WHO HAVE POSTED IN THIS THREAD

Your help in giving people starting out or looking at breaking in, has been greatly appriciated by me and im sure so many more. Keep up the great work this is a thread im sure to return to often.

Cheers from Australia.:asskisser:

[MrSmith]

http://freelanceswitch.com/rates/

excellent rate calculator

[Poustman]

Good thread. Useful and appreciated.

[FIG]

Thanks for posting this ladies and gentleman. I am sure its a big help to me as it is to others.

[Qitsune]

I saw a job offer today where the potential employer offered 5 euros for a seemingly simple job. I was thinking to myself that 5 euros is not even worth the time it takes to answer the offer (let alone do that job) and I thought a little break down of the thought process could be useful to some.

Some of you might be aware of the terms billable and non-billable hours. Some freelancers cherge by the hour and clearly they can't bill their clients for the clerical day to day work that goes into running their business such as writing up quotes, invoicing, and marketing. They make up for that by having a higher hourly rate.

If you work for a fixed rate, you have to consider your overhead as well. Let's say my goal is to make 20$ an hour and I see a job offer for 5$, well it's 15 minutes of my time. Hmmm.... Say it's something very very simple that I think could take me 15 minutes (however unlikely that is) I also have to consider the time I will take to write to the employer, propose my services, see with him if there is a contract, whip one up if there isn't, do the job, revisions, invoice and administrative tasks related to getting the money on paypal . Say everything goes smoothly, and it takes only 30 minutes all in all for the non-billable work... I end up having worked 45 minutes for 5$, 6.66$/h.

That's why you can charge less for a large amount of small items than for just a handful, because you can streamline the administrative tasks, and because you can pick up speed as you do the job too.

Hope this helps.

[Dredwalker]

Hey this should be recommended to commissioners also. :rocker: Like myself. That way they have some concept and guidelines on what to expect from artists' work for their own budget(s). I have been told numerous times that I overpay artists.

[Ebony-chan]

I saw a job offer today where the potential employer offered 5 euros for a seemingly simple job. I was thinking to myself that 5 euros is not even worth the time it takes to answer the offer (let alone do that job) and I thought a little break down of the thought process could be useful to some.

Some of you might be aware of the terms billable and non-billable hours. Some freelancers cherge by the hour and clearly they can't bill their clients for the clerical day to day work that goes into running their business such as writing up quotes, invoicing, and marketing. They make up for that by having a higher hourly rate.

If you work for a fixed rate, you have to consider your overhead as well. Let's say my goal is to make 20$ an hour and I see a job offer for 5$, well it's 15 minutes of my time. Hmmm.... Say it's something very very simple that I think could take me 15 minutes (however unlikely that is) I also have to consider the time I will take to write to the employer, propose my services, see with him if there is a contract, whip one up if there isn't, do the job, revisions, invoice and administrative tasks related to getting the money on paypal . Say everything goes smoothly, and it takes only 30 minutes all in all for the non-billable work... I end up having worked 45 minutes for 5$, 6.66$/h.

That's why you can charge less for a large amount of small items than for just a handful, because you can streamline the administrative tasks, and because you can pick up speed as you do the job too.

Hope this helps.


If it's a really simple job that can be done really first by an artist I don't see anything wrong. However I have noticed a lot of employers wanting top work for really low prices.

That's why I tell so many employers to save up first so you can find a top of the line artist that fits your project to the "T"

Lately though alot of employers want Alex Ross,James Ryman work for dirt cheap. It really dosen't work that way. But like I said if the employer wants a simple fast job than it's fine. I've done a $30-40 sketch jobs myself.

:geekg: :lifedrawing:

[J Wilson]

I have been told numerous times that I overpay artists.

I have to wonder WHO is telling you that you over pay artists. If people who have no clue about the field suggest that you over pay artists, then it's extremely likely they are just not familiar with the amount of work involved in producing quality artwork. These same people seem to think that going to their cousins high school aged son is a perfectly acceptable way to get art done (which is about the same as asking a kid who does pretty good in math to do all of your accounting).

If you TRUELY have been over paying artists, then you are one of the very very few (and god bless you if you are). Maybe I'm cynical but I suspect that you are just getting pricing advice from people who just don't know how to value art services.

[Amber Alexander]

That was my first thought as well, learn to be wary of who you get your information from. A guy once told me that I should stop drawing characters and focus on environments because that's where the jobs are...but the guy telling me this works at Staples...whether he's right or wrong, he's in no possition to be giving me career advice. If the people saying you're overpaying aren't full time artists themselves then they probably don't know what they are talking about.

[Dredwalker]

I have to wonder WHO is telling you that you over pay artists. If people who have no clue about the field suggest that you over pay artists, then it's extremely likely they are just not familiar with the amount of work involved in producing quality artwork. These same people seem to think that going to their cousins high school aged son is a perfectly acceptable way to get art done (which is about the same as asking a kid who does pretty good in math to do all of your accounting).

If you TRUELY have been over paying artists, then you are one of the very very few (and god bless you if you are). Maybe I'm cynical but I suspect that you are just getting pricing advice from people who just don't know how to value art services.

You may be right. Although I will say the people that tell me this are in fact other artists (or so they say in some cases). Maybe they are saying that so that they can get the assignments that I offer. I guess more the reason to check the references of pricing, huh? If so, then I guess I see why I have fallen for that trap from time to time.

[Dredwalker]

That was my first thought as well, learn to be wary of who you get your information from. A guy once told me that I should stop drawing characters and focus on environments because that's where the jobs are...but the guy telling me this works at Staples...whether he's right or wrong, he's in no possition to be giving me career advice. If the people saying you're overpaying aren't full time artists themselves then they probably don't know what they are talking about.

Hey man! What have you got against Staples!!! They're professionals! Didn't you read their "That Was Easy" slogan?!? That's proof! :rocker:
Just joking.

Seriously though I see your point. Someone not in the field giving you career advice is rude. Then again, maybe its all about presentation. Not eveyone who gives advice are totally ignorant of your field even if they not in the field. Unless they stand behind the "That Was Easy" slogan.

[Azuma, Hironori]

The problem I have isn't knowing what I'm worth but getting people to want to pay those prices... So many people get turned away even after I try to be flexible. It's very discouraging. Just to make resume material sometimes I have to take my prices down to a ridiculous level.

It's not fair the clients think its so easy. They are also content with crappy work so they will just screw the better artists and find someone in highschool or college that they can trick for free. It's awful.

I have yet to find a solid way around this problem and only after my 4th straight year of freelancing have I come to a few clients willing to pay me what I'm barely worth.


Good guide though, great resources. Only problem with GAG handbooks are that they are re released often and I can't always afford the updates. It's a good place to start no matter which one you use but I just hate feeling out of the current loop of prices.

[Qitsune]

Azuma, your work is quite good, it might be time for you to move to bigger clients who are more accustomed to working with pros and to the prices pros charge. There is a category of clients who don't really know better but when you start working with corporate clients, money becomes a secondary question to deadlines and quality. I had barely started to scratch the field of corporate clients before going into full time employment so I'm afraid I don't have more specific advise, but your stuff is of a caliber that could interest clients with the budget to hire you. Hint: you might find some here, but it's better to contact them directly.

[Azuma, Hironori]

Very kind of you to say so..! And thank you for your response. I definitely believe that bigger clients who have already worked with committed artists would understand such things but only now have I been able to actually start looking into studio work of some kind. That's the real goal right there.

I'll definitely be trying to find some close-contact venues such as direct email addresses or phone numbers to score an interview. Freelancing is an unsteady road for sure but it'd be nice to do on the side of something more... salary-oriented.

Thanks very much again for your advice and feedback.

[dpaint]

You have to get in the habit of asking what the budget is for the job.
Don't be shy, or people will take advantage of you.
You have to have a price for what your hourly rate is otherwise you have no business taking work from anyone. Concept art ranges from 5 bucks an hour to a couple of hundred an hour and more. So it doesn't matter what any one else gets. If they want you they have a budget, you have a price- ask questions.

As for a contract most companies want exclusive rights to your work or work for hire so ask for the right to show it in your portfolio. Ask for their contract and NDA. Lay out how many rounds of changes are free after the initial pass is accepted. How often you get payed if it is a big job. I just finished two jobs that took about four months so I got paid every month. Create an invoice with your name, social or tax id number address
Keep track of your hours and bill with descriptions for the work

Mister contractor
Your slogan
Address
Phone Fax
Email
SS
INVOICE#001
DATE: JULY 14, 2010


TO:
Big Megabuck Games
Address
Zip
phone
FOR: Project
[P.O. #]



DESCRIPTION AMOUNT


Final pass on Interface Buttons for main screen and view 55 hours
Additional Buttons and final pass on all requested interface artwork 12 hours
Additional assets and fixes on main view rooms 93 hours









160 hours
@ XX per Hour


Total XXXX.XX


Make all checks payable to Your Name
Payment is due within 30 days.
If you have any questions concerning this invoice, contact your name your phone

Thank you for your business!

[Qitsune]

Yep, and that invoice thing dpaint posted, make it look good and turn it into a template, and make a similar quote template, always use them. You will save time and having a good attractive and consistent way to contact your clients looks professional.

[dpaint]

Yeah,
What Qitsune said, I should have mentioned that it is a free downloadable office word template that you can customize. Just google invoice template and a bazillion will come up.

[QueenGwenevere]

If you don't have it already, you should really get yourself a copy of the Graphic Artists Guild Handbook: Pricing & Ethical Guidelines.

It has pricing examples for almost everything, which is a great help in getting an idea of what rates people will expect for different kinds of work. It also has all kinds of sample contracts and other useful docs. Get the latest edition (12th edition, I think.)

Everything dpaint said is great advice, too. A couple of addendums:

You might have a different hourly rate for different kinds of work, if you feel that's appropriate for you - or a higher rate for rush jobs.

In a large job, the client might be more comfortable with milestone-based payments rather than weekly or monthly payments, depending on the client and the job. For instance, X% on delivery of sketches, Y% on delivery of finals (that's a simplistic example, but you get the idea.) Discuss and negotiate with the client.

When figuring out your price, try to estimate how many hours it'll take you to do the whole job and multiply by your hourly rate. Include possible revisions in your estimate (estimate how much time it'll take you to do one round of revisions, and multiply by the number of rounds of revisions you intend to propose. If it comes out high, cut as many rounds as you can get away with until it's within budget. Propose the final result to the client. i.e., "I can do X rounds of revisions for Y price.") If the amount of time you think it'll take you to do the work is very tight given the timeline for the job, consider charging rush rates.

If the amount of time you think it'll take you to do the work is significantly more than the timeline for the job, that's where it gets sticky. You might have to negotiate some compromises with the client - explain that they're asking for more than can be finished in the given time, and either get an extension to the deadline or find a way to reduce the work. How this is done will depend on the job - you might have to cut down the number of allowable revisions to a bare minimum; or the number of sketches you will show per round; or features might have to be trimmed; etc. Or it may mean the work needs to be split among more people.

[The7Artist7]

Hey guys!

Anyone have some general advice on reuse fees? I mainly work on children's book/magazine illustrations for smallish publishers etc but am wondering if there is any normal percentage? So far info on this seems really hard to come by but I've had a few fellow illustrators say around 25% is fair.

Typically I've just got into my first reuse situation where I'm being offered 10% but before I get in a huff or start feeling I'm being undervalued - I'd love to hear from anyone with more knowledge on this kinda thing?

Thanks in advance!

[NicoleWG]

Thanks for all this information, it's very helpful. I just have a few questions.

How would you go about explaining the costs to you're client. As the artist you get and hourly rate, plus materials, other expenses, maybe a rush fee. So, would you go out and tell the client, I charge $10 and hour in addition to $200 (I'm just throwing numbers out there). Or would you settle that the cost will be around $600?

And how would you make an approximation, which is subject to change, without looking like a shyster? Like I estimate the cost at $600 but it turns out to be $800 instead? How do I come across that the estimate is and estimate, based on budget, but is subject to change?

[Ian Miles]

Just adding this link to this thread:

http://freelanceswitch.com/rates/

Best thing in that page is the FF comic strip.

[HeroGear]

Another thing I've read is that it helps to have a quote buffer. Figure out at minimum what it would cost (what your time's worth), then mark up by a percentage (about 10-20%). This is normally done when a project needs a flat fixed rate and is useful because:

1) A lot of artists undervalue themselves, so a "markup" just really puts them in the range they're worth
2) On a flat fixed rate, a markup can help buffer against unforeseen circumstance

Alternatively, having a contract that is strict in saying "for this price you are getting exactly this, and anything else will cost ____ more" is another way to go.

[RumpledElf]

Hmmm I'm probably close to the bottom of the pond as far as employers go. I'm not representing a game studio, I just have a personal project that I Just Want To Finish, I have a figure in my head of how much I want to spend on it and I'm really hoping this is enough to get the art I need. For some odd reason, on irc I was asking about how people go employing artists and I got called offensive to artists for simply wanting to hire an artist to do a specific, highly-specced job for cash. I've employed artists before for small jobs but never anything near the scope of what I want now. I think I fall into the category of 'eccentric designer with too much spare money'. The person who was calling me offensive seemed to be of the notion that artists absolutely have to be involved in the development of a game or it just won't work out. I disagree with this, I personally think I can tell someone to draw me a picture of <something that I provide a rough sketch and a written description of> without requiring 'involvement'.

Anyway, as far as pay goes this still puts me above people who want to offer shares in a game that may never get completed, or want to pay $5 a pop for art that takes several hours. I'm seriously hoping the people who I end up employing have done this before >.<

[Qitsune]

Well if someone is offended by your request and your request involves appropriate compensation, they aren't going to last very long in the industry. We are brushes for hire.

[RumpledElf]

We are brushes for hire.
And this is how I've approached getting creative work done in the past. Just never of the scale I'm currently doing, and I'm only doing a fairly modest scope project here.

Its the people who insist on offering a 'share' of the profits for something that might never get finished that bug me. Creative types need to eat too, paying them for work they do as they do it (like any other subcontractor) strikes me as the best deal for everyone.