Artist why are we so untrusting..

[Ebony-chan]

So many employers I've noticed over the years asked these simple questions.

1. Why are artist so untrusting?

2. Why are so many of them so money hungry.

3. Why does everything have to be about money to them.

I can't speak for every artist just for myself and past experiences. Many arist aren't to quick to trust employers because many of us have been burned before.I can't even count the number of times, I was tricked into doing a free character portrait, weapons sheet or background.

By a fast talking silver tongue scam employer who promised they give you the whole job and exposure. A dream come true for an artist enspecially for a new young artist hopeing to break into the field. From the scam employers I've dealt with they say things like this.

Oh just do a quick detail of this for me and if I like it enough. I'll give you the job and some great exposure.

Or

Your portfoilo is great but I don't know if my character would look good in your style. Can you draw one or two of my characters to help me decide. Ooh don't worry I'll get back to you as soon as you send the image.

Of course reality set in when I never heard from any of these parties again. I'm sure many of you here have gone through something similiar to this. Having someone con and lie to you then steal your artwork. Hardens a person abit because it' hurtful this barely happens to the older artist. Because maybe they know what to look for or they themselves had been cheated when they were younger. So they know the signs.

So to wrap up the first question. I'll end it here art isn't something many artist come up with overnight. It takes time and planning, money and supplies and lot of hard work. If you're a writer just imagine someone stealing your work and publishing it then becoming famous off it.

Ok on to the second question.

Why are so many artist money hungry? We're not just like anyone else we have bills to pay and the cost of living is very high in some places. We have to charge a certain amount to stay alive many of us take our art careers very seriously.

It annoys me when some employers say. Oh it's not about the money it's about the craft. But it takes a good deal of money and time to build up an professional piece of work. If you run out of supplies, then an artist simply has to go out and buy more and many times that is not cheap.

I know my own art supplies cost me anywhere from $30-$150.If painting in photoshop i sometimes takes me 8hrs or more to make a simple sketch come to life. I can't walk into an art store and say. " Hey give me this stuff and if I like it. I come back and pay for it even give your store exposure."

Third question. Why does everything have to be about money with them.

Because art is like any other business though many people seem to have very little respect for it. Just because we're artist doesn't mean we no longer have to pay bills like the rest of the world. We still do though it would be nice to get a few free things now wouldn't it?

Instead of coming here asking for free art most of the time, why not come and talk with some of the artists here. You know. Get you know and understand us.

Does anyone else here have any stories and feed-back to share on the topic?

[Haymaker]

well, I'm not a 'real' artist (yet), but I know that many people still don't recognize art as a career. For them, art is nothing more then copying what we can see: They give a big laugh for the daily newspaper cartoon, but just dont get it how difficult it is to draw a real-looking knight. Artist are blessed with talent, but always need to improve their skills. And that's what many people don't know: the big difference between talent and knowledge/hard labor.

Art is more then just some lines and color: It's putting your whole soul into it!

[Kainin]

Hmm well im new on this whole thing and have a job posted on the
Un paid jobs section, but thats as im doing it for free to get Exp in this area.
I have a very buisness type mind so I make sure any work that I do even as a sample is sent with the understanding that I own that art work untill its paid for.
So from both sides of the mirror I find it a whole lot easyer to come across as if I was in the office and go for the hard sell :D
If they cant understand that they will need to pay an employee from a project that will be making money then they wont get far fast

[PRIMEtarget]

You're just on a steep learning curve when you're wet behind the ears, and people exploit you. Margins are tight, just like any other industry and you're going to get chewed up and spat out a few times before long. I'm not bitter, I just turn around and do it to someone else further down the food chain. Just remember this one thing. 'Quality counts'. You produce any eye popping concept with imagination beyond any limit and you're gonna get noticed. Get noticed and you're gonna get fought over. Get fought over, and you're gonna get paid since they don't want to risk losing you. Concentrate on your skills as an artist, the rest shapes itself. Don't be mediocre. Okay... now let's make waves. ;)

[Seedling]

As an artist, you must also be a businessman. You must be willing to say “these are my terms. Take ‘em or leave ‘em.” And you must be willing to walk away if the other party isn’t interested in your terms.

[otis]

So many employers I've noticed over the years asked these simple questions.

1. Why are artist so untrusting?

2. Why are so many of them so money hungry.

3. Why does everything have to be about money to them.

Are you sure you are interviewing at real companies? LOL! I don't think I've ever heard such crazy questions before? Maybe you are hearing these questions becuase you get defensive when the subject comes up; inadvertantly making you sound like a untrusting,money hungry artist!

Tip: First impressions are everything, and if anybody can sense that you are insecure, unsure or just plain ignorant about business, you will get taken advantage of again.


I was tricked into doing a free character portrait, weapons sheet or background.
You weren't "tricked", you were just ignorant.

Go buy yourself the books "Business and Legal forms for illustrators". "How to survive and prosper as an artist." and.."2007 GAG Ethics and Pricing Guid Handbook."

You just need to learn some business sense.

[Kahl]

As an artist, you must also be a businessman. You must be willing to say “these are my terms. Take ‘em or leave ‘em.” And you must be willing to walk away if the other party isn’t interested in your terms.

I can honestly say that Art schools need to be sure they are also teaching this. I graduated having only had access to ONE business course very ambiguously labeled: 'Art Business.' Its main focus was to explain the differences in copyrights and trademarks, etc. and to explain how to establish yourself as self employed (which really means they showed us what the county DBA forms looked like). And all of this is great information, but most of that could have been covered in one class and with a homework reading assignment. I think if you are going to tell people what legal forms to fill out and why, there also needs to be some coaching on how to conduct oneself professionally, what to expect as a green artist but also where to draw that line. Like you said, Seedling...how not to be taken advantage of. Obviously some of this is trial by fire only...but I was told nothing. Thankfully I was older and had some worldly experience before I went to school and knew that I wasn't going to be handed a degree and TA-DA! I have a job too....but if I'd only listened to what was being told to me I certainly would have thought so. Many of the kids I graduated with did and many of those I've encountered from other schools are facing similar problems. One person I know went to a far more "prestigious" school that often touts that they teach Fine art not Commercial art (a slam at the school I graduated from because their names are very similar but my Alma Mater is sort of chuckled at as the "poor man's college" or "just a trade school"). The poor guy went into a horrible depression after school because all through college until he got his degree they told him how marvelous he was, so talented, but never prepared him for what getting a job as an artist would entail....he seriously believed that he would graduate and museums would be throwing money at him to do exhibitions. Sadly he grew so frustrated that he's given up on art as a profession entirely (does it only for himself now) and I really think a lot of that can be prevented with the proper coaching.

I'm not saying that the institutions are solely responsible for an artists business savvy....but I certainly think I could have benefited from some practically business courses more so than studying calculus and quantum equations. Don't get me wrong...I know math is important, but the study of economics is math too. Career Development should be incorporated.

Bleh...sorry....enough ranting on my part. Too much coffee. :tihi:

[Ebony-chan]

Are you sure you are interviewing at real companies? LOL! I don't think I've ever heard such crazy questions before? Maybe you are hearing these questions becuase you get defensive when the subject comes up; inadvertantly making you sound like a untrusting,money hungry artist!

Tip: First impressions are everything, and if anybody can sense that you are insecure, unsure or just plain ignorant about business, you will get taken advantage of again.


You weren't "tricked", you were just ignorant.

Go buy yourself the books "Business and Legal forms for illustrators". "How to survive and prosper as an artist." and.."2007 GAG Ethics and Pricing Guid Handbook."

You just need to learn some business sense.


Well at the time when you 15yrs old you don't think. There's no way anyone should be offended when someone charges you for a service. Do I get defensive. Oh yes enpecially if someone wants top notch work for little or nothing.

My time and supplies cost alot. This place is no where near as bad as deviantart. You should go and see the offers there. $10-50 for a professional website. 5-30 for a realist portrait, but many artists get sucked in and it's not the older ones but the younger artist.

So now I'm older and a bit wiser. I still get a good number of offers for commissions. Some good and others terrible. I can't walk into a art supply store and want the best suppiles and not want to pay the prices for them.

I have alot of books dealing with art and business. But it's good to educate the younger group so they won't be taken advantage of as much.

[Miran]

I must say I agree with Ebony Chan here. Deviant Art offers are usually a joke. Most of the people come there just to make fun of artists by giving them a had time about work and then disappearing. And that kind of behavior is encouraged since nobody tries to put an end to it.

Don't worry about cheap offers. Yes, they're after a professional website but they have no idea what's it supposed to look like (otherwise they wouldn't be lowballing and asking for designers among newbs).

My idea about this problem is WHAT YOU PAY IS WHAT YOU GET!

So every client/artist gets what he deserves; nothing more nothing less.

[HectorBustamante]

So many employers I've noticed over the years asked these simple questions.

1. Why are artist so untrusting?

2. Why are so many of them so money hungry.

3. Why does everything have to be about money to them.


Mmm I think most of the time this questions are formuled from particulars non related to entertaiment industry. A videogame company, a film production and such kind of things never understimate your work because that's what their bussines is after all: audiovisuals.


1.- The artists are "untrusting" to those particulars because they don't see concept art as a serious job. They think most of us are just teenagers trying to get some easy money for the weekend. I recently faced a guy who offered me 35 dollars to redesign his whole site! One of two: a)this person doesn't know a penny about how much does a site costs or b) he thinked he could trick a silly teenager with a cut-my-grass fee... jeez! I have an uncle who is a grasskeeper and he wins a lot more per hour! And of course, they want it done for yesterday... that's the most anoying part.

So... if you don't fit on their needings, you're automatically discarded as a profesional. Unless you're a lucky bastard and you get a work inside the industry... ;)

2.- We are money hungry because we do this for... you guess? Money! Geez, Michaelangelo didn't painted the sixtine chapel for free, he had to eat too. This blows my head off... :xpld: A wise guy here mentioned we're bussines men before artists, so you need to stablish your terms for the deal.

3.- why does everything have to be about money? well... is there something in the world it doesn't have to? This is kinda philosophical here :)


A long ago I posted in other forum at least 5 different "species" of clients :perv: but I can't find the post...

[Ebony-chan]

Mmm I think most of the time this questions are formuled from particulars non related to entertaiment industry. A videogame company, a film production and such kind of things never understimate your work because that's what their bussines is after all: audiovisuals.


1.- The artists are "untrusting" to those particulars because they don't see concept art as a serious job. They think most of us are just teenagers trying to get some easy money for the weekend. I recently faced a guy who offered me 35 dollars to redesign his whole site! One of two: a)this person doesn't know a penny about how much does a site costs or b) he thinked he could trick a silly teenager with a cut-my-grass fee... jeez! I have an uncle who is a grasskeeper and he wins a lot more per hour! And of course, they want it done for yesterday... that's the most anoying part.

So... if you don't fit on their needings, you're automatically discarded as a profesional. Unless you're a lucky bastard and you get a work inside the industry... ;)

2.- We are money hungry because we do this for... you guess? Money! Geez, Michaelangelo didn't painted the sixtine chapel for free, he had to eat too. This blows my head off... :xpld: A wise guy here mentioned we're bussines men before artists, so you need to stablish your terms for the deal.

3.- why does everything have to be about money? well... is there something in the world it doesn't have to? This is kinda philosophical here :)


A long ago I posted in other forum at least 5 different "species" of clients :perv: but I can't find the post...

It's sad isn't it when people think we can just pull grand works out of thin air with little to no work at all. I've had to turn down lots of jobs because they didn't pay above $50 and they wanted professional top of the line work.

[digitell]

Hi Ebony,
I agree with Seedling. You have to have a set of terms to go by and stick to them. If the client cannot go by these terms, walk away. You must state your terms up front. I try to first sell myself by telling the client what I offer, show my online portfolio. I then tell them how fast they can expect the first draft and if revisions are needed how quick I can come back with them. I then tell them what my price will be and base that price on what they are requesting.
I then tell them I do require one half my fee down payment ( down payment sounds better than up front). I tell them that the remainder is due after completion of project.
In my experience if a client is serious about the job, they happily abide by my terms, if not..I just do not hear from them again, which is fine. I will not do business with anyone who does not agree to this.
On the other hand, if the client is someone I have worked with before and I am familiar with them, I will begin on the project before the down payment arrives..but I still require the down payment.
This method has worked for me for the last 4 years. I have not been burnt yet.
Hope this helps!

[HectorBustamante]

Hi Ebony,
I agree with Seedling. You have to have a set of terms to go by and stick to them. If the client cannot go by these terms, walk away. You must state your terms up front. I try to first sell myself by telling the client what I offer, show my online portfolio. I then tell them how fast they can expect the first draft and if revisions are needed how quick I can come back with them. I then tell them what my price will be and base that price on what they are requesting.
I then tell them I do require one half my fee down payment ( down payment sounds better than up front). I tell them that the remainder is due after completion of project.
In my experience if a client is serious about the job, they happily abide by my terms, if not..I just do not hear from them again, which is fine. I will not do business with anyone who does not agree to this.
On the other hand, if the client is someone I have worked with before and I am familiar with them, I will begin on the project before the down payment arrives..but I still require the down payment.
This method has worked for me for the last 4 years. I have not been burnt yet.
Hope this helps!


amen!! :confident

[kendi]

I have a very buisness type mind so I make sure any work that I do even as a sample is sent with the understanding that I own that art work untill its paid for.

i don't think that this so called 'understanding' is truly existent. i think it's a figment of your imagination, and you need to get it in writing and signed as proof of their so-called 'understanding' as well as their agreement.

[kendi]

And of course, they want it done for yesterday... that's the most anoying part.

yes, i agree. the most annoying part is not the $5 a drawing offer. JUST SAY NO!

[Coinpurse]

As an artist, you must also be a businessman. You must be willing to say “these are my terms. Take ‘em or leave ‘em.” And you must be willing to walk away if the other party isn’t interested in your terms.

couldn't have said it better. Something I believe is the most important rule when it comes to working in the industry. If there interested in interviewing you to begin with, then they should be thinking twice before they decline your requests. Ive been shut down a lot in the past, but the more you keep going and revolving your life around your art, better things will come. It all takes time, I'm just getting there myself.

[Beelow]

Contract, that's all I have to say. It's legally binding and you get rid of flakers instantly.

[Ebony-chan]

You know I have to agree with Kendi many of these so called have no knowledge on how artwork is done and how long it takes to make it look professional. Artist just don't pull their work out of thin air.

That's why not for like 8yrs I've been asking for a Contract like beelow said or half th payment up front. Just yesterday someone came to me and asking me for what?! Yes you guessed it professional pieces of their characters, weapons and backgrounds. That's right they wanted 6 characters, 6 background and 6 weapons sheets. At first they agreed to my prices and I asked for a contract and they said ok.

Next day in my e-mail. I get an message from them saying they were sorry but they found an artist who would do all the work for $2-5 per page. But they would happyily give me the project if I did it at their prices. I told that person to have a nice day and we could not do business.

How someone could buy art supplies let along live on 2-5 commissions is beyond me. However alot of my clients are good and have no problem accepting my terms.

[kendi]

yea. .

[kendi]

:D :D :D

[kendi]

there will be DIRE consequences!!!

[Ebony-chan]

You've all made really good points. So far I've learned that if you build your portfolio up to the best you can and then show it. Employers will come. The flakey ones will go away after you give them your prices and talk about contracts. However the professional and good ones will stay and talk with you and be happy to maye out a contract or set up a payment plan.

[kendi]

i wish it were that easy... ahahhahahahhahhahahha

but that's what these forums are for, right? so that we go forth in the right direction!

[Ebony-chan]

i wish it were that easy... ahahhahahahhahhahahha

but that's what these forums are for, right? so that we go forth in the right direction!

Me to Kendi so far I've had alot of flakey employers and very few good ones. I wish there was a easier way to weed them out.:dur:

[kendi]

hi ebony, i've been very lucky so far.

[devilminer]

First, get a part-time job or something. This will give you money and the time you need for when you do commissions or other work rather than just sitting and waiting desparately for a job offer from these employers.

Next, set up a nice web page and design it like you wish. Put it up on Comicartfans.com or artwanted.com. If you wish, make your own website (there are hundreds of free website creators out there...just google them). This will be your true portfolio. Keep it organized. You can see mine at this link as a sample: http://comicartfans.com/GalleryDetail.asp?GCat=1613 . Notice how it is structured in a manner where it is easy to read and navigate through.

And last, don't be afraid of what you think your work is worth. If you're just starting out, charge maybe $9/hr, which should make a 6-7 hour artwork stand on its own at a comfortable $50. Treat it as a job. Your client might want some examples and you can always refer back to your online sites as reference. (They usually say,"I really like the (blank) image. Can you do the piece in this style?") A client wants to see your work as proof that you are up to the challenge. The more practice you get, the higher you should charge (remember, your rate includes all of your reference books, experience, supplies, etc., so don't be afraid to say, "I charge $15/hr and it will take me 7 hours to complete it.) And another thing I've tried is making a quick contract (it can even be done by email. As long as you have it in writing, this acts as your contract. ) Go over the terms and conditions, and lay down a down payment fee. This will relieve many clients because they won't have to slap down all the dough just yet. When you finish your piece, scan it and email it to your client (cropped and low resolution so as to avoid freebies) so he/she can pay you the rest.

There are many ways. These are just a few I've tried. The down payment works the best. The emails are a must because you have the negotiations in writing. Know your worth. Your gut feeling will usually tell you what you should charge for the artwork. If they don't email back, just say ''whatever'' or "bummer" and go on with your life. You'll get what you deserve in the long run, just don't give up.

[kendi]

$9/hour for artwork? no way. you can get paid being a receptionist for the same or even more at some places.

people get $15 to guard doors.

[magnut]

Ebony-chan,

You're getting all kinds of great advice on this subject. Besides my main suggestion to always have a king-sized bottle of Tylenol available to you at all times, I can also suggest:

When you know you're inexperienced in business matters, it is best to get the GRAPHIC ARTISTS GUILD - PRICING & ETHICAL GUIDELINES book and study it.

Then it's a trial-by-error process of applying those professional standards espoused in that book. If you're able to, take your own city-college business courses that aren't so expensive.

You're still in for the times when you make the totally wrong decision, and you'll end up knowing you've accepted a job that is way too much work for way too little pay. There's a prison analogy about learning not to 'drop the soap' that comes to mind... but sometimes this is how we learn, by being bit in the ass, and then doing everything you can to avoid future ass-pain.

After a while you'll develop an instinct for this. If your work is very good, and you're just simply a bad businessman, then you can look into getting an agent to represent your work. When you do this, you really must learn how to ask questions (which you're already doing, and that's great). This would be a great opportunity to learn, so eventually you may not need an agent. Make sure everything you learn and absorb is corroborated by supporting information, proving that information is solid.

It's a lovely thing to learn all this, isn't it? It just makes you want to drink heavily, and go to sleep...

Good luck.

[Kainin]

i don't think that this so called 'understanding' is truly existent. i think it's a figment of your imagination, and you need to get it in writing and signed as proof of their so-called 'understanding' as well as their agreement.

I dont mean understanding as in a non real world figment, as in its copywrited to my self untill its payed for. Another word for an understanding is agreement as in contracted agreement. :)

They are asking for a service that cost money and as long as they know the cost and you know the scale then you all should get what your after. When your drawing your an Artist, when your selling your a sales person :D

[Ebony-chan]

I'm glade I posted this topic there's so much to learn here to use later on.

But I can't help to wonder why many employers with rpg or novels don't want to pay for professional work. I mean don't they know that their not the first to come up with a warrior game or a book about magic.

That their in books and rpgs are up against other better authors and professional artist whose work alone can sell their game or novel.

And people starting a new business who only want to pay 10-15 for their business logo.

These people are doomed to fail. Why because they don't seem to taking the business their in seriously. Well let's see if let's say an author has James Rymans art on their cover and the next author doesn't believe they should pay alot of money for their cover.

Now for some reason they think the public won't know the difference between good artwork and suckie work.

So this is my message to the authors,business people looking for cheap logo and rpg companies looking for cheap work.

The public can tell humans are vision creatures!

We can tell if the artwork is professional or not and for that.

How good the artwork is will depends if you business product will sale or not.

[magnut]

Ebony-chan,

Some people just can't see that they're operating on such an amateur level. They move forward some some weirdly false sense of confidence that deludes themselves into thinking they can create something from the five dollars in their pocket that everyone 'must' think will be amazing and terrific.

Whether you're a writer, or an illustrator, or an editor, or a producer... you must have the ability to stand back from the work you're doing and accurately assess the quality level of what you're doing. As an illustrator, if you can see the faults in your own work, then you have the means to figure out how to make your work better. If you're a writer, same thing. If you're a producer or an editor, you have the ability to see where the wheels have come off the speeding train, so you can step in and institute solutions needed to make your project get back on track.

It's not an evil thing usually, that amateurs pretend to be professionals. In many instances, this is the way people become professionals. But there are those 'happy' people that seem to go along in life with no clue that they're producing crap, that they're paying crap rates, and that their crap really doesn't stink, even though everyone around them are holding their noses and fainting.

It just seems evil, as there are so many people who do it. And it is fueled by all the inexperienced people who are anxious and desperate to become professionals, or those who simply wish to engage in a hobby of 'pretend professional work', as they will gladly accept the most terrible of wages just so they can get some sort of 'professional credence'.

This is a small universe of people that will always exist. You'll never be able to change it. You'll only have to learn how to navigate through it.

Generally the public will know the difference between good and bad quality. There are exceptions where the public will still rally to the crappy quality. Hey, we kept Sanjaya Malakar on American Idol for much longer than we thought he'd stay, yes? In the comic book world, Rob Leifeld has made quite a good living for himself, even though he still can't draw his way out of a paper bag, unless Arthur Adams drew it first.

There are always exceptions.

Seedling (in another thread) said it best when she said (as I paraphrase) that though you are an artist, you must also be a businessman. Sometimes you simply must know what your standards are, and make sure you stick to them, even if it seems as if you're passing up a promising job. At those times, you must rely upon your well-developed instincts to know what to accept and what not to.

Let those people exist. Always know that you operate on a different, much higher level than that. You're exactly right in that those amateurs who pay crap rates for crap projects are doomed to fail. One or two will succeed, but they are only the exception that goes to prove the rule.

Be vigilant. Be tenacious. Be determined to consistently uphold quality standards, and your opportunities will come to you.

Ebony-chan, you are not in the USA, correct? I'd be curious to know what kind of opportunities you have come across where you are, and how different (or how same) things are where you live.

Hang in there.

Good luck!

[Ebony-chan]

Ebony-chan,

Some people just can't see that they're operating on such an amateur level. They move forward some some weirdly false sense of confidence that deludes themselves into thinking they can create something from the five dollars in their pocket that everyone 'must' think will be amazing and terrific.

Whether you're a writer, or an illustrator, or an editor, or a producer... you must have the ability to stand back from the work you're doing and accurately assess the quality level of what you're doing. As an illustrator, if you can see the faults in your own work, then you have the means to figure out how to make your work better. If you're a writer, same thing. If you're a producer or an editor, you have the ability to see where the wheels have come off the speeding train, so you can step in and institute solutions needed to make your project get back on track.

It's not an evil thing usually, that amateurs pretend to be professionals. In many instances, this is the way people become professionals. But there are those 'happy' people that seem to go along in life with no clue that they're producing crap, that they're paying crap rates, and that their crap really doesn't stink, even though everyone around them are holding their noses and fainting.

It just seems evil, as there are so many people who do it. And it is fueled by all the inexperienced people who are anxious and desperate to become professionals, or those who simply wish to engage in a hobby of 'pretend professional work', as they will gladly accept the most terrible of wages just so they can get some sort of 'professional credence'.

This is a small universe of people that will always exist. You'll never be able to change it. You'll only have to learn how to navigate through it.

Generally the public will know the difference between good and bad quality. There are exceptions where the public will still rally to the crappy quality. Hey, we kept Sanjaya Malakar on American Idol for much longer than we thought he'd stay, yes? In the comic book world, Rob Leifeld has made quite a good living for himself, even though he still can't draw his way out of a paper bag, unless Arthur Adams drew it first.

There are always exceptions.

Seedling (in another thread) said it best when she said (as I paraphrase) that though you are an artist, you must also be a businessman. Sometimes you simply must know what your standards are, and make sure you stick to them, even if it seems as if you're passing up a promising job. At those times, you must rely upon your well-developed instincts to know what to accept and what not to.

Let those people exist. Always know that you operate on a different, much higher level than that. You're exactly right in that those amateurs who pay crap rates for crap projects are doomed to fail. One or two will succeed, but they are only the exception that goes to prove the rule.

Be vigilant. Be tenacious. Be determined to consistently uphold quality standards, and your opportunities will come to you.

Ebony-chan, you are not in the USA, correct? I'd be curious to know what kind of opportunities you have come across where you are, and how different (or how same) things are where you live.

Hang in there.

Good luck!


Good advice there thanks. I'm in the USA. :}

[magnut]

Ebony-chan,

Oh, I could have sworn you were from outside the USA. Okay, cool. :)

[subversive-imaginati]

"Why are artist so untrusting?" Because it's business and not friendship involved.

"Why are so many of them so money hungry." Because surprise surprise money is necessary to pay anyone to do work.

"Why does everything have to be about money to them." I don't know, perhaps because it's business.

A lot of the problems some artists have with selling their work is overpricing it actually. If I had a dime for every would be artist whose ego is bigger than their skill level? I'd be rich.

You'll see them talking to potential customers, yammering about how professional their work is, then they pull out poor or mediocre quality art and quote a price that is higher than most professional artists sell at. Five minutes later they're complaining because the customer balked at the price or turned them down flat. They never seem to get that over-pricing can be just as damaging as under-pricing their work.

Yes, there are customers who want the world for a song but there are also artists who want prices that their work simply isn't worth yet. Each transaction is different. A good artist and business person? Learns how to deal with each type of customer and what the real value of their goods is.

My point? There are often those who are poor at business on both sides of the counter. We might complain about cheapass customers who want everything for nothing but sometimes artists who would sell professionally create their own problems by letting their own ego get in the way of business.

[Ebony-chan]

"Why are artist so untrusting?" Because it's business and not friendship involved.

"Why are so many of them so money hungry." Because surprise surprise money is necessary to pay anyone to do work.

"Why does everything have to be about money to them." I don't know, perhaps because it's business.

A lot of the problems some artists have with selling their work is overpricing it actually. If I had a dime for every would be artist whose ego is bigger than their skill level? I'd be rich.

You'll see them talking to potential customers, yammering about how professional their work is, then they pull out poor or mediocre quality art and quote a price that is higher than most professional artists sell at. Five minutes later they're complaining because the customer balked at the price or turned them down flat. They never seem to get that over-pricing can be just as damaging as under-pricing their work.

Yes, there are customers who want the world for a song but there are also artists who want prices that their work simply isn't worth yet. Each transaction is different. A good artist and business person? Learns how to deal with each type of customer and what the real value of their goods is.

My point? There are often those who are poor at business on both sides of the counter. We might complain about cheapass customers who want everything for nothing but sometimes artists who would sell professionally create their own problems by letting their own ego get in the way of business.


Egos? why do you think artist have galleries? To make the internet prettier? If I have a penny for every client came to me and looked at my gallery saw the level of work I've done plus my past references and say.

Ok I want this same professional level of work but ummm I really don't plan to pay alot for it. I'd have at least a million dollars by now.

This is WHY you look through an artist gallery and ask for references. Is this rocket science? Or at least I don't think it is.

Here's how it works for me.

Client sees artist work online. Client contacts artist about their work.

Client tells artist they love their style of work and want them to do that same professional style of work.

Artist directs client to the contact info where there commission prices are. Then mentions contract.

Good client stay flakey ones disappear into the darkness.

There is no way. I mean no way you can contact an artist and not seen their gallery. At least not to my knowledge.

In the end when cheap clients go with cheap artist everyone pays. And thus their project sucks and their artwork sucks even more.

You will know if your dealing with a professional just by going to their gallery and looking or asking for their past references.

[subversive-imaginati]

Yes, I used the right word. Egos, you'll always get the ones who think they're the next Dali even if everything they do has badly done anatomy and pillow shading. There's nothing wrong with being confident in your work, however over-confidence can kill a transaction pretty fast as well.

I'm talking about real life as well, I work in an artist based organisation so I have actually seen people talk themselves up to a potential client and then their overpriced work doesn't live up to their talking and they complain the client is being tight-fisted when they get turned down. Also when a potential client posts online, he or she may be contacted by an artist who rambles on about how great they are and then links to a sub-par gallery with a rediculous pricing for the work.

Oh, I agree, you can always tell if you're dealing with a real professional. But that doesn't mean there aren't a lot of would be professionals without the skills to back up both their boasts and prices.

[Ebony-chan]

Yes, I used the right word. Egos, you'll always get the ones who think they're the next Dali even if everything they do has badly done anatomy and pillow shading. There's nothing wrong with being confident in your work, however over-confidence can kill a transaction pretty fast as well.

I'm talking about real life as well, I work in an artist based organisation so I have actually seen people talk themselves up to a potential client and then their overpriced work doesn't live up to their talking and they complain the client is being tight-fisted when they get turned down. Also when a potential client posts online, he or she may be contacted by an artist who rambles on about how great they are and then links to a sub-par gallery with a rediculous pricing for the work.

Oh, I agree, you can always tell if you're dealing with a real professional. But that doesn't mean there aren't a lot of would be professionals without the skills to back up both their boasts and prices.

What's that saying. If it's to good to be true. Most likely it is.

If someones sweet talking sounds oh so wonderful. Be sure their product backs them up as well.

[magnut]

Originally posted by subversive-imaginati

You'll see them talking to potential customers, yammering about how professional their work is, then they pull out poor or mediocre quality art and quote a price that is higher than most professional artists sell at. Five minutes later they're complaining because the customer balked at the price or turned them down flat. They never seem to get that over-pricing can be just as damaging as under-pricing their work.

subversive-imaginati,

I think you make a good point there, but I don't believe you speak of the usual standard. I believe there is an amount of people who (out of ignorance or ego) do exactly what you say. They hurt themselves, primarily because they perhaps know their work can't speak for itself, so they have to overcompensate by talking themselves up way too much. Then they end up biting off way more than they can chew.

There are too many various levels of 'gray' in this subject. Employers ofttimes do everything they can to undercut rates. Freelancers ofttimes overprice their work, not understanding or caring that they are not adhering to the current professional standard. Both sides often don't know what the professional standard is, and/or both sides simply have different standards to begin with.

Then there are all the other various kinds of levels in between. The best example I can give is my own current experience. I am right now juggling six separate jobs. Each job is radically different, in that:

- Job #1 I'm under contract for until the job is done. I told this company my weekly rate, they told me they couldn't meet it, they came back to me with a counter-offer, and because this client is someone I can see would give me lots of return business, I took their offer. I was lucky enough to have taken this 2 week job and (so far) having it stretch out to over a month and a half.

- Job #2 I'm only receiving intermittent assignments from a client. Not enough work to pay rent, and when the work comes in, it interrupts my current workload, but I can't refuse the work because it is regular work, even though each piece pays different rates, depending on the complexity.

- Job #3 is a job that should take 2 months to do, but has to be done in a month's time. I can do it, but I have to make sure time management is well-disciplined, where my other jobs are concerned. Sadly, the rate is not great, but again I see future work from this client, so I accept the job.

- Job #4 is a job that I'm not getting a lot of money for, though the workload (and the value to the job) exceeds what the rate compensates me for. I took the job because at the time, it was the only job I had that would bring in money. Right after I signed the contract, I got deluged with all this other work, which is usually what freelancers deal with. You know, feast or famine...

- Job #5 is a monumentally sized job, but I'm very happy the deadline is far away. The big pain in the ass is that I'm still expected to feed parts of this job on a regular basis to the client, which just adds to the pressure.

- Job #6 is the job I really want to do. It's a commission piece, and I'm very excited to get to it. It is very complex, and just organizing and absorbing all the reference for it is a time-consuming thing. The client is patient, but I'm not. I really want to work on this damn thing.

But, I have to juggle my Toyotas & flaming cats first.

The point I'm trying to illustrate is that if you're too rigid and inflexible, then you'll never get the work you need, and you might never know why. As I said in a previous post, the best, most powerful ammo in your arsenal is your ability to know and understand how things work, and your ability to know when it is not working, and why.

Yes, we let our egos get in the way of our business. Then our ignorance, and our indignation. But hopefully, after you get all these various things out of your system, you end up with practicing your professional craft with good standards. Along the way, you must be flexible in your ability to roll with the punches, take proper advantage of the good things that come along, and then hopefully be humble enough to LEARN the proper balance between being a pompous asshole and being a wimp that is taken advantage of.

You really don't want to undervalue your work. You also don't want to act like your shit doesn't stink, because soon you'll find out that's not true.

I guess we're all talking about Professional Karma, yes?

If your work doesn't speak for itself, then you really have a problem. The quality of your work is what should make the client interested in you, not you (The Royal 'You') trying to sell yourself as if you were some used car salesman.

No one really trusts someone who does that.

[Ebony-chan]

subversive-imaginati,

I think you make a good point there, but I don't believe you speak of the usual standard. I believe there is an amount of people who (out of ignorance or ego) do exactly what you say. They hurt themselves, primarily because they perhaps know their work can't speak for itself, so they have to overcompensate by talking themselves up way too much. Then they end up biting off way more than they can chew.

There are too many various levels of 'gray' in this subject. Employers ofttimes do everything they can to undercut rates. Freelancers ofttimes overprice their work, not understanding or caring that they are not adhering to the current professional standard. Both sides often don't know what the professional standard is, and/or both sides simply have different standards to begin with.

Then there are all the other various kinds of levels in between. The best example I can give is my own current experience. I am right now juggling six separate jobs. Each job is radically different, in that:

- Job #1 I'm under contract for until the job is done. I told this company my weekly rate, they told me they couldn't meet it, they came back to me with a counter-offer, and because this client is someone I can see would give me lots of return business, I took their offer. I was lucky enough to have taken this 2 week job and (so far) having it stretch out to over a month and a half.

- Job #2 I'm only receiving intermittent assignments from a client. Not enough work to pay rent, and when the work comes in, it interrupts my current workload, but I can't refuse the work because it is regular work, even though each piece pays different rates, depending on the complexity.

- Job #3 is a job that should take 2 months to do, but has to be done in a month's time. I can do it, but I have to make sure time management is well-disciplined, where my other jobs are concerned. Sadly, the rate is not great, but again I see future work from this client, so I accept the job.

- Job #4 is a job that I'm not getting a lot of money for, though the workload (and the value to the job) exceeds what the rate compensates me for. I took the job because at the time, it was the only job I had that would bring in money. Right after I signed the contract, I got deluged with all this other work, which is usually what freelancers deal with. You know, feast or famine...

- Job #5 is a monumentally sized job, but I'm very happy the deadline is far away. The big pain in the ass is that I'm still expected to feed parts of this job on a regular basis to the client, which just adds to the pressure.

- Job #6 is the job I really want to do. It's a commission piece, and I'm very excited to get to it. It is very complex, and just organizing and absorbing all the reference for it is a time-consuming thing. The client is patient, but I'm not. I really want to work on this damn thing.

But, I have to juggle my Toyotas & flaming cats first.

The point I'm trying to illustrate is that if you're too rigid and inflexible, then you'll never get the work you need, and you might never know why. As I said in a previous post, the best, most powerful ammo in your arsenal is your ability to know and understand how things work, and your ability to know when it is not working, and why.

Yes, we let our egos get in the way of our business. Then our ignorance, and our indignation. But hopefully, after you get all these various things out of your system, you end up with practicing your professional craft with good standards. Along the way, you must be flexible in your ability to roll with the punches, take proper advantage of the good things that come along, and then hopefully be humble enough to LEARN the proper balance between being a pompous asshole and being a wimp that is taken advantage of.

You really don't want to undervalue your work. You also don't want to act like your shit doesn't stink, because soon you'll find out that's not true.

I guess we're all talking about Professional Karma, yes?

If your work doesn't speak for itself, then you really have a problem. The quality of your work is what should make the client interested in you, not you (The Royal 'You') trying to sell yourself as if you were some used car salesman.

No one really trusts someone who does that.

Well said my friend. =)

[subversive-imaginati]

At the same time, define professional?

Is it someone with what you would deem professional level skills?

Someone who gets paid for their work?

Someone who makes a living at it?

Professional is different things to different people. The problem is there is no hard and fast rules in artwork, with something like a plumber, you know if you shop around most of the plumbers are going to tell you a figure that is pretty much the same for the job with minor variations.

Artwork is not only a non-essential, it's demand varies according to style preferences. Which alters the market demographic for that type of artist. For example, most illustrators are drawn into character work, which means often background illustrators are rarer, that rarity means companies are willing to pay more for them because they're harder to find. Just as certain styles are harder to find, nowadays anime artists are a dime a dozen so they don't get paid as much simply because the market is saturated with them.

I also have noted that too many artists snap at would be customers for offering low prices, if it doesn't suit you as an artist, it's best to politely explain that you can't possibly do the job for so little and to walk away if they persist in offering low amounts, there are people out there who will pay what an artist is worth, growling and snapping at potential clients though? Get's spread around even if the client has offered you an insultingly low amount, going off on them damages your reputation more than simply walking away would.

As artists the most important thing for success is a cool head and an understanding of how the art market is currently.

[magnut]

subversive-imaginati,

Being a professional is when you make your living from your chosen craft. And since I've been doing this now for over 2 decades, I believe I have a firm grasp of what that means.

Yes, freelancers (the pros, the newbies, etcetera) must learn decorum when dealing with clients.

I read you being very general in your ruminations. Why don't you post some specific examples of your experiences, talking about how you deal with various situations? I'm reading lots of your complaints, now I'm curious as to what your solutions are...?

[subversive-imaginati]

I don't actually make money from my chosen craft at least not yet, I'm still working to obtain a level of quality to my work which I would feel comfortable with selling. I'm good but I don't think my current quality is good enough for customers.

Actually most of my complaints come from being yelled at by other freelancers when I point out that their stuff is overpriced for their skill level or critique about their business tactics. I'm trying not to get into specifics since I know if I do it probably won't be good for the thread, I don't want one of the people I've "insulted" by telling them they over-charge to come running in here freaking out because I've got into specifics.

Apparently it's bad form to critique how other artists do business judging from the amount of times I have gotten yelled at for politely pointing out they're making mistakes but I see bad business practices time and time again. Over-pricing, under-pricing, back handed business tactics, insulting potential clients. It's not to hard to see the negative impact such behaviour has on the earning potential of some people.

What really gets me is when you get a pushy artist, who pretty much tells a client that they expect clients to want professional level work for nothing, messes around exaggerating what other artists will charge and generally upsets potential customers. Customers do not want to be on the receiving end of an artist's attitude problem simply because other people have tried to rip off or low-balled the artist. I once saw someone tell a potential customer that everyone else would charge loads of money for the job and they pretty much tried to discourage the customer from doing his own research to find baseline prices, then they got all offended when the customer politely rejected their "advice" and did the research anyway. I have a feeling the artist who was trying to exaggerate the prices of other people was trying to ensure they would get the job, somehow I think the customer saw straight through them.

While I agree, we need to send lowballing clients packing, I've seen plenty of artists lose jobs simply by assuming the potential client isn't that bright or is trying to rip them off. Is it any wonder some potential employers think artists are money grubbing when some of us are pretty much saying "every customer is out to rip us off" in their interactions?

I may not sell my work currently but watch other artists trip over due to their attitude towards potential clients has certainly taught me a fair amount of what not to do.

[magnut]

Original posts by subversive-imaginati

I don't actually make money from my chosen craft at least not yet, I'm still working to obtain a level of quality to my work which I would feel comfortable with selling.

AHHHHH, the missing piece of the puzzle. You don't make a living from your chosen craft? I was getting the distinct impression that you were, that based upon what I thought was your vast experience, you were complaining about all these other abject amateurs who had an inflated sense of their own value.


Artwork is not only a non-essential, it's demand varies according to style preferences.

Wow. If this is your attitude about artwork, it astounds me that you're trying to become a professional. Why would you want to do this when you have such a dim (not to mention incredibly ignorant) view about professional artists? Perhaps accounting will make you happier?

Okay, several things... since you've repeated yourself over and over about the attitude of artists, all I can tell you is that you're right about some. Also, I must say your rants (now that I know you've yet to support yourself with your craft) now come across to me as misunderstood theories, and not observations based upon actual experience.

I understand that. Like I said in a previous post, people who are not professionals must act like professionals as a means to actually become one. In other words, you sometimes have to 'fake it until you make it'. I did that, as I believe most everyone else has, to some degree. It seems as if this has yet to apply to you. Or, that is what you're currently going through right now.


I'm good but I don't think my current quality is good enough for customers.

That's actually quite a good thing! It's great that you know that your work has a ways to go to be of a professional standard. That's the best way to be able to identify what the problem areas are. Since you're more generous with complaints rather than contextual details, I'm wondering how old you are, and what kind of things you think you're coming up short on when it comes to trying to find professional work.


Apparently it's bad form to critique how other artists do business judging from the amount of times I have gotten yelled at for politely pointing out they're making mistakes but I see bad business practices time and time again.

It's not bad form to bring up a subject, but it might be bad form to act as if you know what you're talking about with no real context of experience, or bad form when you don't try to come up with a way to make the situation better. Make your point, apply it to something specific (you don't have to give names... you can be somewhat discreet), and then talk about solutions to this problem. Otherwise you're simply bitching for the sake of bitching, and on these forums, that's just boring.

I'm actually disappointed that you've said the same thing repeatedly, only to find out that you don't have the actual experience in negotiating the value of your job. I'd be interested to know what experiences you have had looking for work, and what your questions are about regarding how you can get yourself professional work.

When you actually do become pro, you'll find out that sometimes you have to stand your ground, which might make you look pushy to other people who aspire to become pros. When this happens, then guys like you will get on these forums to complain about... well, guys like you. Oh, the irony.

I hope you're very close to getting professional work. It's a crazy roller coaster ride, and there's always room on the coaster for other pros who are throwing up while going around those tight turns... :)

GOOD LUCK!

[kendi]

i don't think artists should get into this field to make money, or to be recognized by the world. they should create artwork for themselves, not simply wait for someone with a pocketful of dollars to come around and tell them what to do or give them direction.

[kendi]

the last thing this world needs is another humble artist begging for work.

[kendi]

according to the irs, a 'professional' is someone who has been making profits for at least 3 years in a row in their profession.

in other words, if you're making $5 a drawing, and spending $6 on materials to create it, YOU'LL NEVER BE A PROFESSIONAL no matter how many years you do it that way.

[kendi]

when i'm high.

[kendi]

this is a fun thread... :D

[kendi]

i'm just kidding about the 'high' thing, by the way...


lol

[kendi]

the way my budgeting is done...

[magnut]

Damn, kendi!

I don't drink alcohol but once every 3-5 years, but I'm thinking I should go out drinking with you sometime!

subversive-imaginati seems to be another one of these likely talented people who aren't yet on the professional level he wants to be on. So instead of concentrating on his craft and what he must do in order to become a pro, he distracts himself with every nitpicking unimportant thing about professionals, not realizing or caring that what he focuses on represents not the Professional Standard, but the exception to it.

But he really must do what he can to first figure out that if he wishes to be a pro, he must learn the proper respect for the life that he must lead in order to become one. Respect for the craft, respect for the discipline you must have in order to do this for a living.

But, subversive-imaginati really only sounds like someone who thinks he knows what he's talking about, when he really, really does not.

But that's okay. He'll learn or he won't. He can post more complaints about which he has no experience doing. He can talk more about how he's got it all figured out, when he really never has even talked about any substantive solutions for the problems he seems to be annoyed by.

And most of all, he seems not at all to care about giving any real context to any of his complaints, which makes what he posts make no sense at all. It's like he's complaining in half-sentences, or half-thoughts. Too many inconsistencies in what he says.

Good luck to him.

And good luck to you, kendi! I don't envy your hangover, party girl! :P

[subversive-imaginati]

Just a FYI but I'm a female. Just because I don't sell my artwork currently doesn't mean I'm ignorant about the business side of thing. I would have made a very good marketing manager actually had artwork not been so much more interesting to do. I have spent a lot of time studying artistic marketing since it's a big part of my day job and yes, a lot of artists do under-price though just as many over-price or "misbehave" in front of a customer. So they're not just theories, I've watched a number of artists really damage their professional standing.

By calling artwork a non-essential I am talking about in terms of requirement on the consumer end. Your average person? Pays the bills, buy essentials like food then spend money on things like artwork, computer games and other entertainment, it's a non-essential for many people in that they don't require it to live, they require clothing, food and shelter to live but not artwork, I know most of us feel differently but I'm talking about your average non-artist customer here. Artwork is much in demand but like anything people will pay for, what is in demand is based on what the consumers want. The art business is like any other business, save that people tend to get a little bit more emotional about the end product.

Okay, let me give an example, there's this artist I know, the work they produce? Hasn't improved in over 4 years and they are while not untalented nowhere near a professional standard, said artist? Thinks they're pretty amazing and professional. Their work is pillow shaded, they can only do about 6 poses, and their anatomy? Stiff and poorly worked out.

All of this is stuff that could be smoothed out with time? That is if said artist wasn't out there constantly putting the boot in to their repuation. You go to their main page? I've never seen so much complaining about how people don't want to pay "proper" amounts for "top-notch work" as they've posted. They get rejected from a job? They get snappish and rude in return, this is the same person I mentioned who tried to snare a job by giving a customer misleading information. You do a search on their name? Arguments that they've had with potential customers are the first thing to come up.

Their prices are unrealistically high, $200 for stiff poorly shaded figures? Especially given that they largely sell to the private rpg fan market? So they constantly have "sales" in order to sell their work. It makes them look both desperate and unsuccessful.

Basically the artist in my example is a text book case of a very bad business model. They talk down to their customers, have an over-inflated sense of what their work is worth, and argue with customers publically.

Since I do take them occasionally I do look at all the pitches and consider putting myself forward and once that particular artist gets involved? I always make it a point to step back because I know that artist is probably going to upset the potential customer and possibly lose the job for all of us. You can't tell the artist that though.

Another Artist? Doesn't charge quite a much but her work is even worse. $100 for a badly rendered sketch, ink slapped on top, no clean up in photoshop and dodge and burn shading? She sells though because she's selling to a niche fandom and she's been around for long enough to be a "name" in that group. So she might have poor artwork but her business practices are at least fairly sound, she's known to get the artwork out on time. So she's popular even with shoddy artwork. So the odd tantrum she has when someone critiques her work? is largely ignored. She'll never be anything more than a niche fandom artist however despite her attempts at things like doing books about her art because she simply doesn't want to work for it.

Another artist? Mindblowing work, just as good as the stuff posted at conceptart. Her professional credibility? in the toilet. She's rude to customers, ignores them once they've paid her and has taken money without providing the artwork on quite a number of occasions. If there's a big fuss over her? She produces one piece of the outstanding work to sooth people, then goes right back to ignoring her customers. Shame, she's got loads of talent, incredible skills and no sense of business acumen.

Yet another artist? Sent a customer something that was not only what was specified, it also was accompanied by a grossly insulting letter. Apparently the artist in question thought that being asked to do the art she was paid for? Amounted to a "festering miserable experience" amoungst other things that I shall not repeat. The customer sent her a polite email asking for the work he'd paid for, nobody in their right mind could justify what he got in return.

So yeah, the four worst examples that come readily to mind. All four of these? Are technically professionals since they have been earning a living by doing art for over 3 years. These people are certainly not the only bad eggs in the artistic field but they're just some of the worst I've encountered.

btw, me humble? As if. Having a realistic view of my artwork doesn't make me humble. I don't beg customers to let me work for them. But equally well? I know how important it is that artists don't get on their high horse and ride it straight into hell when it comes to dealing with customers. Customers don't care if the artist they're dealing with is considered "professional standard" or not by other artists, they're just trying to get a job performed. One bad egg artist? Can sour a customer.

So there is the answer to the original questions asked. Bad eggs on both sides.

You can consider me ignorant if you like but I don't need to jump into the pool to know the water is wet. :wink:

[kendi]

Their work is pillow shaded. What does that mean?

[kendi]

i mean you CAN'T judge... typo

[kendi]

i have come to officially believe that sub has an ego problem. and i don't like talking to people who admit that their artwork is bad, but that it's okay because at least they are better human beings than i am.

well, i don't care. my son says i'm the best mommy in the whole world, and i believe him. and i happen to think that my son is the best kid in the whole world too.. what's so wrong with that? it's okay for EVERYBODY to think that their kids are THE BEST KIDS EVER. people can love their artwork, and ask for extravagant prices if they want - it's no business of yours. people finally quit their part-time work so they can be the boss, and what did you ALWAYS want to say to that idiot of a customer when you were a clerk? that's right. well, when you're your own boss, you can do that and not get fired. let people say what's on their mind, if they have beef with a customer. again, IT'S NOT YOUR BUSINESS, so just relax.

please do it your own way, but without talking shit about other people's ways.

respect

[subversive-imaginati]

You forgot the original questions.

I was answering them. Why these people ask those questions is because not all artists have the wits to realise that to do business they need to act in a business manner. Yeah, we all get those would be customers we just want to tell to sod off and who sour us, but it goes both ways sometimes.

Charlie brown was stylised but Charlie brown was also very well done in the style it was in, other notable cartoons like, Calvin and Hobbs and Garfield? It wasn't just the style and artwork that sold them but the writing since they were comics.

Um, that would be bad press they themselves have created since it's them publically arguing with potential clients. The clients aren't saying it, the artist is making it quite clear with their posts that they feel under-appreciated, assailed by people who just don't understand that their work is "worth more" and how dare people not want to pay the same amount for their work as customers pay other artists, which is really funny when often the artists they're trying to match in price? Are far better. Not really a feel good factor there if you're a customer, potential or otherwise.

Sometimes, in that artists case it seems like every other post is the complaining about it. Think about it as a customer, if all you hear about is artists complaining about how people offer low amounts of money and about how they want more money? Wouldn't you think that artists are money hungry without the context and understanding of how many people do lowball artists?

My point is? Customers get sour because of bad artists as well. Just as we have to deal with people who think because art is a "fun" activity that we should give it away for free, customers sometimes have to deal with unprofessional artists.

Look, I don't sell my work currently because I'd rather spend my time on improving my artwork currently than selling, I admit I'm possibly lucky to have that choice to hold off on selling for now while I work on improvement but that doesn't mean I don't value my work. I do have a realistic view of my artwork, I have a fair amount of skill which I am improving daily but I'm not satisfied enough to start selling it. I'm not constantly moping around whining I'm not good enough but I'm also not constantly thinking I'm the best thing the art world has seen since Da vinci, which seems to work for me.

Why do I "talk shit" about other people's ways? Because it's a bloody headache to deal with an upset potential client just because some pencil monkey with more ego than talent has been having a go at them because the client rejected their over-priced pitch. When I'm on a jobs board and someone decides to make a right royal tit of themselves? They make all of us look bad by association.

I also work in a position where I have to mediate situations like that sometimes. Not fun.

[kendi]

please don't bring that kind of talk here - it's not welcome.

[kendi]

i meant to write CAN'T not CAN assume..

[kendi]

and besides that, i'm sobering up...

[subversive-imaginati]

To be frank? I haven't named the first person in my examples but their behaviour towards me and other people has been extremely poor in my opinion, the artist in question has talked about me and other artists publically including being less than truthful, talked to potential clients about other artists again being less than truthful. So yeah, I don't feel particularly bad about talking about their appalling lack of ethics. Plus, I was asked to provide examples, so I provided four examples at least two of which are well known for being very bad at business.

Let's be honest, artists need to stick together in some ways but every so often there's a few who do more harm than anything to their fellow artists. Those artists are why otherwise nice clients get soured. I wouldn't be so quick to assume the artist is in the right, I mean sure, we all get people who pull fast ones or who complain for no reason, I have had them myself, a former friend of mine offered me the commission for designs for his new tabletop game, then he went off the deep end, started making wild claims to me about how he was a police officer, I dropped the contract like a hot potato and now he tells everyone that I tried to steal his game and that he fired me, his game is a D&D D20 rip off though so anyone with any brains would realise that I wouldn't want to steal something that would get WotC litigating me.

My point is that just as often? The difficulties we artists experience are the result of other less than professional artists giving a bad impression of artists in general.

As an artist, I get pretty tired of the whole attitude that customers are out to rip us off and any complaints are unjustified. I mean most artists don't like being stereotyped so why is it okay to stereotype the customers? It works both ways.

[Ebony-chan]

To be frank? I haven't named the first person in my examples but their behaviour towards me and other people has been extremely poor in my opinion, the artist in question has talked about me and other artists publically including being less than truthful, talked to potential clients about other artists again being less than truthful. So yeah, I don't feel particularly bad about talking about their appalling lack of ethics. Plus, I was asked to provide examples, so I provided four examples at least two of which are well known for being very bad at business.

Let's be honest, artists need to stick together in some ways but every so often there's a few who do more harm than anything to their fellow artists. Those artists are why otherwise nice clients get soured. I wouldn't be so quick to assume the artist is in the right, I mean sure, we all get people who pull fast ones or who complain for no reason, I have had them myself, a former friend of mine offered me the commission for designs for his new tabletop game, then he went off the deep end, started making wild claims to me about how he was a police officer, I dropped the contract like a hot potato and now he tells everyone that I tried to steal his game and that he fired me, his game is a D&D D20 rip off though so anyone with any brains would realise that I wouldn't want to steal something that would get WotC litigating me.

My point is that just as often? The difficulties we artists experience are the result of other less than professional artists giving a bad impression of artists in general.

As an artist, I get pretty tired of the whole attitude that customers are out to rip us off and any complaints are unjustified. I mean most artists don't like being stereotyped so why is it okay to stereotype the customers? It works both ways.
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subversive-imaginati let me just say what you're saying is sad and interesting. From my own experience I've had some of my clients whose deal with bad artist on their first start trying to cut corners and save themselves money. But what many of them don't realize is the quality must be good or better if they hope to market their ideas to the public.

Many employers think they can save themselves alot of time and money if they sacrifice in some area's like their budget to hire an artist. If you pay a low wage then you can expect to get alot of artists whose work may be lacking at times and was not the professional quality they had in mind.

If you go to Deviantart you'll have a prime example of both bad clients and bad artist. What's the old saying. " If it's too good to be true, it probraby is."

If you have an artist who is lowballing and telling all these great things. About how good they're work is and how fast they can have it done , that'll it will look wonderful once it's done and how the client will love it. However the client has not seen the artist gallery so how will they know they'll get good quality.

That's like a chef telling you my food is the best and you'll love it once you taste it. So like me be the chef for you dinner party. But how do you know if that is true do you take that chance or do you ask for a sample or go to the place the chef works at and tastes their food.

See you never know until you find out yourself.

You see what many of these employers don't know if you can't get James Ryman,Jim Balent or Luis Royo quality for $5-100, for professional work plus full rights to the image , I haven't seen that happen yet.

What is professional? Well that means different things to different people first the artist and employer must communicate that is key to any business big or small. The client has to first look at an artist gallery and like the style that the artist has, then contact that artist. Afterwards they tells the artist about their project and what they want from the artist as far as how they want they characters,weapons or whatever they had drawn and mapped out.

Then the artist will ask the client what their budget is on their project. Both parties can either agree or disagree on that point.

Now subversive-imaginati you said the many of the employers you've tried to work with have had bad experiences with bad artist. Yes it can be hard to convince potential clients that you may be the best fit for them.

That is where you gallery comes in and if you have past references those may help out even more. Then you can show your potential client what she/he may be getting as far as the style and quality of your work.

There is a bad side to every business, but you have to make sure your not apart of it.

The rest is really up to the client if their willing to pay for good work. An artist can't tell a client hey don't commission that artist unless you've seen they're work first.

Well I hope that helps. You have to build yourself up and be as good as you can be and not worry about the bad and unprofessional artist or clients.

Just know you have you're own set of standards that you go by.

[subversive-imaginati]

Ebony,

As an artist I'm getting tired of customers seeing artists as insular, hostile and even overly proud. Yes, artists should be proud, they should protect themselves but there's a fine line between "I don't work for cheap" and being blind about how to run a business.

Some artists seem to feel that carping about how people don't want to pay them the amount of money they want somehow "validates" them as artists. I think constant carping by an artist like that just gives the impression that the artist thinks customers are a chore for them. Yes, commissioned work can be boring compared to personal work but why would any artists want a customer to know or think that they don't care about the job they've chosen to do?

If the potential customers are balking at the prices then often either the artist is targetting the wrong demographic or the artist is over-pricing their work, we're not all the next Royo though some less skilled artists seem to think they're entitled to the same price as the really skilled artists then wonder why potential customers balk at being asked to pay the same as they'd pay to a top artist like Royo for artwork that isn't as good as what he does. Sometimes customers have to accept lesser quality because they can't afford more, that doesn't mean artists are allowed to look down on them because they haven't got hundreds of thousands of dollars to pay out for a piece. Sometimes the top artists are too busy to take anymore work onboard so people have to go to an artist who perhaps is simply adequate rather than spectacular. Even art directors don't always get their first choice when they're chosing an artist for a commission piece.

Yes, some customers do want Royo level work for a song, but I find just as often either the artist is over-confident and has to lower their prices or they've just not found the right niche to sell to.

You can argue that I have to concentrate on me but it's a little hard to do that when some other artist has started a blazing row with a potential customer simply because the artist in question has no idea of professionalism in business conduct. It is very tiresome to lose potential jobs because some person upsets a potential customer so much that they don't want to commission any art anymore. That's less likely to happen when dealing with an art director but when you deal direct commission work to the public it happens a lot.

[Ebony-chan]

I think we've answered your question as best we could subversive-imaginati.

Yes client may not have 100's and 1000's of dollars to pay the artists upfront. But art is a business and has to be taken seriously. If an artist doesn't know the value of their work then who will?

You sound bitter. I know you really do just be reading your words. I'd say step out of the negative and be as positive and good as you can. So you can experience the good side of this business.

You can't allow yourself to stay sad or angry at someone who has done bad business with a client. Instead you should show them that there are good artist out there.

[subversive-imaginati]

I thought the point was you wanted to discuss why potential clients think like you've indicated in the first post. I'm just been telling you why I believe that is such a common stereotype and how stereotyping those customers as people who "just don't want to pay for quality" doesn't help matters, it just reinforces the negative stereotypes people have about artists.

Most artists don't know what their work is worth it seems. They either underprice themselves or overprice themselves, then wonder why they either feel taken advantage of, or have to drop their prices just to make a sale.

You have a funny concept of bitterness, it's not bitterness to be irked at people who have a negative impact on my earning potential as an artist. Customers can be hard to please sometimes as it is, however if mary b wannabe has just irritated the client I'm pitching to, then it makes my job harder. It's a normal human reaction to be annoyed at people who make our lives more difficult.

[Ebony-chan]

Well your repeating yourself over and over again. It's like you not taking in what people are saying.

Are you a bad artist? I assume no. Should you care about what the next artist does? No not really because you have to worry about building yourself up.

That's all I can really say. If I say anymore I'd just be repeating myself. =)

Best of luck to you though. I hope you find what works for you. =)

[subversive-imaginati]

Well your repeating yourself over and over again. It's like you not taking in what people are saying.

Are you a bad artist? I assume no. Should you care about what the next artist does? No not really because you have to worry about building yourself up.

That's all I can really say. If I say anymore I'd just be repeating myself. =)

Best of luck to you though. I hope you find what works for you. =)

It's called debating, you form an opinion and justify it then it is up to others to actually dispute that opinion. So far the only disputes of my opinion that I've heard are:

1. Not all artists are like that, which is true enough but enough of the ones I have encountered are that it's been inconvenient for me. It only takes one artist behaving badly to sour a potential customer, and they pass the acquired prejudices onto others.

2. That talking about other artists who do behave like the examples is somehow wrong, which I most certainly do not agree with especially given when the artist in question has been free with their own tongue about their complaints about others. There's nothing wrong with addressing the fact that just as some clients do not know how to conduct a business transaction, some artists are similarly inept at business, especially when their ineptness has cost other artists potential customers.

The precise point I had made that you have completely missed apparently is that you have started this thread based on customer/client stereotyping of artists as distrustful moneygrubbers but what has been left out is that artists can be just as prone to stereotyping customers/clients in return and that stereotypes don't come out of thin air. Most people form opinions based on experience both their own and the experience of those they are associated with.

While artists do often have would be customers/clients who waste our time with low offers and generally inappropriate behaviour. It is also true that most artists are not perfect and some are completely capable of messing it up for the rest of us.

My point remains, such stereotypes exist because of bad business persons on both sides. If you're going to complain about them, do try to be fair about it instead of just placing the onus on the client, because just as it takes two to tango, it takes more than one side to make a stereotype.

Well you have seen my work so I'd be wondering why you state yourself as assuming whether I'm good or not, since you probably do believe I'm either good or not, that is if I presume you know how to form an opinion on someone's skill level.

[kendi]

no sub. the problem is that you don't listen.

well, you're right. it is our fault as artists - this is a business as you've said, and far be it from me to try to turn into something 'enjoyable' - and it is not like a professional to blame others but to fix the situation in the most profitable way. after all, blame doesn't make you rich.

i just wanted to say that i quit my other job, so that i could be the boss and tell clients (or anybody else) just what i think when necessary, but it seems that i can't do that either - so i'll just refuse service without any specific reason, other than i don't feel like it - i do have a right to do that, don't i?

sub, i don't think prices always have to do with how skilled you are... but i have no valid logic to back that up - it's only my opinion coming somewhere from my inner intuition.

and artists never look down on anybody for not having a lot of money. that is absurd. we just choose to do something else with our time - maybe go get a job?

sub, i suggest not to get into the art business. it is not very well paid, except for a few exceptions of the superstars and there are just so many fakers and wanna-be's that all artists have a bad rep in general. and like you said, a lot of us complain and don't act very professional at all - you'd be fighting this stigma your entire career if you decided to join us in our ranks. and it's an uphill battle - complaining to us won't do anything anyway lol.

you should become a doctor, where you will be more appreciated and obviously, your work is in demand. it is very important work to save people's lives and give them a shot at a higher standard of living by improving their health. also, even the worst doctor gets paid more than the best janitor. i wish i could say that even the worst artist gets paid more than the best doctor, but that would be dreaming - :D lol.

talk to you later, and if you decide to professionally become an artist one day, then i'm glad you're out there helping to make our impression a better one. and if you don't, i'm happy for you that you don't have to be one of us.

peace.

[subversive-imaginati]

No, I have been listening, so far I haven't heard anything really concrete apart from a lot of judgements/assumptions on what I am and how I think, simply because I pointed out something. If someone enjoy's art so much that they want to make a career out of it, why do we often hear so much complaining about clients out of them?

I doubt I would ever become a doctor, due to personal reasons. I didn't chose to be an artist because it can pay well, however given that it's hard enough to earn a living at this, why wouldn't I be irritated at the things that cost me potential jobs? I may pick and choose what I do when I sell art but it still costs me time and effort to chase a job, if the client messes me around? It happens, it's an accepted risk of being an artist. If some other artist stuffs up the potential commission though by being less than bright? That's not a risk I agree with or think should be even possible.

If it's legitimate to complain about client assumptions, it's also legitimate to complain about the impact of bad assumptions on business and legitimate to complain about bad and underhanded business tactics practised by some of my peers that make an already difficult job that much harder.

I have my reasons for everything I do, I don't expect you to understand or even know what they are.

[kendi]

artists are not required to be business people.

artists are only required to be artists.

[subversive-imaginati]

artists are not required to be business people.

artists are only required to be artists.

And that kind of thinking is why artists are often poorly paid for their work or stiffed.

Most people organise their bills, they deal with banks and other institutions politely so why is then that when some of them are faced with being on the other side of the counter they cannot treat their clients as they expect to be treated when they are the client?

I have never had a bank try to actively discourage me from gathering information to compare the different banks. I have never had any company complain at me because I turned them down because I felt their goods were over-priced. Yet, I've seen artists do that to clients.

Commissioning artwork is and should be no different to buying anything else. Too many artists act as if it's something special just because it's creative but it's not, art requires skill but then so do a lot of jobs, perhaps you think being able to visualise, plan and build a table isn't as special as being an artist, or being able to re-wire a house? I hear a lot of people complaining about how people wouldn't expect a plumber or a carpenter to work for free but few artists seem to have the wits necessary to realise that the business skills required for selling a product/service don't change based upon what the product/service is.

It's a fact of life, being an artist? Doesn't magically excuse you from have to develope the same business skill set that a carpenter, hairdresser or plumber might learn in order to survive in their chosen trades. Yes, the trade changes slightly from trade to trade but ultimately we all have to business persons either that or hire someone who knows how to do it for us. That is what seperates the successful artists from the unsuccessful.

[kendi]

don't worry. the unsuccessful ones will be (hopefully) weeded out and will find work elsewhere as a receptionist or truck driver.

stop worrying about other people, and complaining to us who don't really care, (because we take care of our own business) - you should tell those artists specifically, instead of telling us... and just do your best.

talk is for rappers. are you a rapper? no, didn't think so.
so go practice drawing and shaddap. :D

[subversive-imaginati]

You'd think so, but the law of averages seems to agree that there will always be the odd one that gets through and makes trouble.

I didn't care until I realised that the behaviour of artists around me? Affected my chances of getting work often and people like my examples could well pop up anywhere. Taking care of your business unfortunately doesn't mean that you won't waste time chasing a job only to find somebody has severely pissed the client off and they've taken their business elsewhere.

Ultimately though, I've answered the questions which is what I set out to do, it's not just the clients perceptions but the impression that they are given unless the client is just a not nice person irregardless of experience. It's not fair but people generalise. Can't blame the client for his experience but I most certainly can blame the people who gave the client bad perceptions of the art industry.

You tell me you don't care, if you truely don't, why respond? You've tried to poorly debate my posts at every turn. I would say that's something more than don't care.