Is Japanese anime real art?

[Paul "Otaking"]

Controversy ahoy! Or not, if nobody replies to the thread. Then I just look like some guy duct taping puffins to his head in an attempt to get flighty results.

It just occured to me that the rant I just crapped out in the IT's FINALLY FINISHED thread isn't really the right place, so I've put it up here. So the question is - what do you think of anime as art?

As you can probably tell, I'm an anime fan. HOWEVER! I utterly despise modern anime. I think anything animated and Japanese from 1999 onwards looks like it's been scrawled by a small child in his or her own rancid faeces. My inspiration for drawing is and always will be the quality of classic "golden era" (aka, the 80s)anime, where everything was incredibly detailed and colourful, unlike the digitally mass produced, grey, non-shaded washed-out crap that's called anime these days.

In short, I know that the majority of people on conceptart don't like the 'anime style,' and many don't even consider it real art. Judging by the way modern anime looks, I can't blame them. But don't dismiss it until you've seen Gunbuster or Macross Plus.

That's my twenty pence on the matter, anyway.
Here's an explanatory diagram/propoganda I knocked up to illustrate my bile-spewing point. A point so filled with rage that I didn't even check how to spell 'propaganda!'

[Jtho]

It's pretty useless to compare quality specimens of "old" anime to your idea of bad specimens of "modern" anime. I could just as easily fish out a screencap of the original Gundam series and argue how much higher the standard for quality is now.

As far as newer shows that don't use as many "cells" for shading somehow automatically making them not art, well, that's a pretty absurd claim. I'm not a huge anime fan, but I've seen a few fight scenes in Naruto with absolute top-notch animation quality easily rivaling a full-blown film production. Samurai Champloo for me was more appealing because of it's distinct and attractive art and animation style than the actual story or any other factor.

[JenZee]

This isn't even a question to be honest. Of course it's art. And I don't know which anime you've been watching lately, but there are plenty out there that are extremely beautiful and stylized. Absolutely breathtaking. It seems you may just have a preference for highly detailed work. Simple in many cases, works wonderfully IMO. Peace Maker Kurogane, Planetes, Zegapain, Wolf's Rain, wonderful production quality.

To be honest, I personally am a bit sick of the "nothing but realism" mentality that seems to have invaded a large percentage of digital artists. Knowing realism is good, adhering strictly to it is boring. If I wanted photorealism all the time, I'd take a gosh darn photograph :).

Oh also, the top girl with the yellow eyes and white hair, she's a pinup from Langrisser the manga. The artist is still doing art now, so not valid I say!!! :)

[PlayFFVII]

Of course anime is real art, its just a certian style that some people like. Now if you really like anime art and want to make somthing of it then i say go for it...BUT...

Dont just do anime style everything. Start with real people, figure out how to draw real stuff real good, and as soon as you have masterd proportions, and anatomy, and composition and everything along the realistic style nature then let that naturalistic learned style flow over to your anime art that we all love to draw.

Now talking about the old anime vrs the new anime..well im sure companies just want to produce the hottest fastest money cartoon they can, and have it as fast as they can so kids can view it and give them money in someway well thats however might work for them, but im sure that if you do anime like the old style and apply your naturalistic art to your anime style, then people will flock to see your drawings and anime then look at some anime that looks like it was half assed.

[Paul "Otaking"]

Jtho -

Ah, but the original Gundam was in the late 70s. I was talking about the golden era of the 80 to mid 90s. If time frame was no issue, anyone who wanted to counter my claims could just put up a black and white screencap from Astro Boy in the 50s and point out how crude it looked. The point is, anime art quality is odd in that it started out looking like rubbish (in the 50s and 60s), developed to a state of nigh-on perfection, considering what could be done with the medium (the 80s and early 90s), then degenerated into hastily-produced, digital rubbish from 1999 onwards.

Saying that comparing the old and new styles is useless is a flawed argument, and I can prove why. I never claimed that modern anime wasn't art. It is: just bad art, in my opinion. People claim that perception of art is based on the individual, and that art cannot be judged, but I firmly believe that you can measure the quality of anime artwork quite easily using actual, tangible criteria. For instance:

Line quailty and detail of linework, number of tones used in shading, placement of those tones on the artwork itself, the colour choices used in the shading, and detail of character/mechanical/background design.

These are the main factors of anime art, and they're quantifiable things, the quality of which can be measured just by watching in freeze frame or slow motion. And in each one of those criteria, modern anime falls down dead compared to 80s and 90s anime titles. Even the uber-expensive modern video releases, like the terrible new Hellsing ova, or the makedly better Death Note, are inferior in every one of those respects to such titles as Macross Plus, Dangaioh, Ninja Scroll, etc.

As for the judging criteria -
Modern anime line art is uniformly thin, with no weight variation, due to it being lazily drawn digitally. The majority of 'classic' anime, like Bubblegum Crisis, take advantage of their hand-drawn nature and look far more detailed for it. Any screen captures you may wish to take will validate this claim. Variety in line thickness, cross hatching, and overall number of pen strokes used to make up the character or face are all factors which classic anime surpass and excel in. Even a pretty good looking modern show, like Mushishi, looks bland and undetailed in comparison to this. Watch Mushishi, and follow it straight up with Yu Yu Hakusho, and you'll see what I mean straight away.

I don't need to go into how little shading modern anime has. Again, titles high in production values, Samurai 7 for example (the DVD box claims it's high-definition nature means it costs twice as much to produce as other titles) - have one tone of shading, or two at most. This shading is placed incredibly sparingly just under the chin and nose, in general, regardless of lighting conditions. Look at even cheap TV animetion from the 80s (Ranma, Hokuto no Ken), and the depth of shading immediately stands out.

Colour, too, has been cpmpletely washed out by the digital process of modern anime. From the very first digital titles, like the Tv series of Mahou Tsukai Tai or Blue Sub Number 6, the grey, colourless nature of the shows is strikingly apparent. This makes no sense to me, as, if anything, I've found that Photoshop makes it easier to manage colour. Why anime should immediately turn grey the second it goes digital is beyond me... but it has, and nobody with eyes can deny that fact.

Probably the main factor in modern anime's unappealing look is the way the characters are drawn, though. Just compare any modern show to an 80s one, and they hardly look like the same country has produced them both. In general, anime character art has devolved to the point where characters have lost most of the distintive detail of the eyes and mouth... hairstyles, too. All of the things which people thought of as 'anime' characteristics... big eyes, small mouths, multicoloured hair... it's all become an incredibly simplified, minimalistic art style. Anime girls didn't use to have lips... nowadays, an anime girl can't be considered 'sexy' without having massive, pocking Angelina Jolie lips plastered to her face. No shading, of course. See Paradise Kiss or the sex symbol Okoi from Basilisk, for instance. The sheer characteristic detail of anime eyes seen in titles like Dragon Half, Battle Angel Alita, Lodoss War and the OVA Shadow Skill have been completely lost - replaced by a couple of lines and a circle. This, again, can be measured physically. Simply take a screenshot from a modern anime like Paradise Kiss or Paranoia Agent, and one from an old show, such as Dragon Half or Gundam 0083. The difference should be immediately apparent, but to take the test a step further, try and reproduce the still yourself on a piece of paper. If you time yourself, nine times out if ten every artist will find that it takes longer and requires more concentration to replicate the face from the old show. The reason for this is simple - there are less lines in modern anime. Less detail, less linework, and minimalistic flair.

Mecha and robots are the final area of comparison, and here modern anime holds up a little better. Modern shows like Rahzephon and Gundam Seed do actually feature some nice looking, well shaded mecha -even as the character art in those shows is exceptionally simple and lacking in quality. Obviously, these mecha don't have as much shading as classic titles - anyone who disagrees is blinkered by loyalty, and will change their tune after watching a couple of minutes of the classic Gundam 0083, Macross 2, Dangaioh or even Macross 7 (which many fans dislike because they think it looks cheap).

So, it's apparent from those comparitive criteria that modern anime is inferior, artwork-wise, to classic shows from the 80s to mid 90s. Even Cowboy bebop, one of the greatest anime ever in most critics' opinion (and mine too) was starting to look a little rough around the edges in terms of shading and character detail. It was made in 1998, and Escaflowne, a couople of years earlier, looked stunning in every crieria listed above.


I wasn't actually talking about the way anime moved, but it's a good point well raised, and fluidity of movement in anime is another conrete factor which can be compared and weighed.

As you say, some of the fight scenes in Naruto move extremely well. Likewise with Samurai Champloo. The first episode of Samurai 7 looks very nice in terms of movement, and all of these are modern shows. However, that's not especially hard considering all of these examples are motion captured (even I have pulled off some stunning-looking fluid animation for Studio Trophis, merely by drawing over video footage of myself). 'Classic' anime was animated by hand, from the artist's brain. Nowadays, it's easy to take a shot of someone kicking someone else and simply trace. And trace is exactly what Naruto and others do... surely you've noticed how their proportions change drastically in the nice-looking action sequences? They suddely change from being anime proportiones, to having stumpy, real-life sized legs and arms. Either that, or they don't bother to draw at all, and just use cheap CG for the action sequences, as with much of Samurai 7 and indeed all of Macross Zero.

If you then go and look at classic action anime, like Ninja Scroll, Macross Plus, the Fist of the North Star movie from 1986, etc, you can see levels of animation easily on par with those seen in Naruto and others you mentioned. The difference is, they were all drawn without resorting to tracing a real life video sequence. And as for CG - the makers of the 100% CG fest Macross Zero have gone on record as saying they simply could not top the frame rate of 1994's Macross Plus, so they didn't even try and just used CG instead. If the makers of the show have stated that the animated action scenes of their own early show is unsurpassable in terms of frames, that kind of negates any argument in favour of modern anime's animation being better. The eye can only see so many frames per second, and you can't get better than that. The aerial dogfights in Macross Plus are utterly flawless.
The final nail in the coffin is to watch the early 90's series The Guyver, and then watch last year's new version. You'll do well not to be sick all over your keyboard.

[Paul "Otaking"]

This isn't even a question to be honest. Of course it's art. And I don't know which anime you've been watching lately, but there are plenty out there that are extremely beautiful and stylized.

Good point, but like I said in my massive rant just now, anime is an art style which can be measured and judged using real criteria, and in all of those criteria the shows you mention fall down, roll over and die screaming in comparison to old shows. Wolf's Rain, for instance, only looks decent for the first few episodes, then suddenly runs out of money or effort and becomes so ugly that I couldn't watch any more. Stylized is good, but that doesn't make a show exempt from being compared to classic shows using the judging criteria outlined above. And they just don't stand up to the judging, in the main. Even when Wolf's Rain had money behind it, it looks far inferior to, say, Escaflowne. It's all down to anime going digital, it seems.

Also, bear in mind that I'm only talking about the art, not the story or how fun the show is to watch. I love Ouran Host Club, but if I have to look at it critically, it's ugly as sin and practically devoid of detail. That doesn't make it no fun to watch, but it makes me think... how f***ing incredibly would this show be if it had amazing artwork to compliment it?


To be honest, I personally am a bit sick of the "nothing but realism" mentality that seems to have invaded a large percentage of digital artists. Knowing realism is good, adhering strictly to it is boring. If I wanted photorealism all the time, I'd take a gosh darn photograph :).

I agree 100% with you. One of my top three favourite series of all time is Fist of the North Star (especially from episode about 40 onwards, when it suddenly develops movie-standard artwork and animation... and my eyes begin to bleed). And everyone in that has necks twice as wide as their heads, and legs so long that one kick would snap them! ^^;
It's odd you should say that, though, as the 'style' of modern anime is incredibly realistic compared to the huge array of over the top, huge-eyed character designs styles of the 80s. Another point I loved about anime, gone forever, it seems.


Oh also, the top girl with the yellow eyes and white hair, she's a pinup from Langrisser the manga. The artist is still doing art now, so not valid I say!!! :)

Haha! Nicely spotted. But that picture is actually Lemnear from Legend of Lemnear, an old show. I have the art book here. Satoshi Urushihara is indeed still working in games and anime, but if you look at Plastic Little (which looks amazing and moves so smoothly it feels like a baby's ass) and compare it to the new Langrisser anime (which looks horrible and has none of his signature shading), you can see that modern anime atrists have even taken the great Satoshi's art style and raped it half to death, leaving it with flat, emotionless lineart and grey, washed out colours. And that makes me cry.

[Paul "Otaking"]

Dont just do anime style everything. Start with real people, figure out how to draw real stuff real good, and as soon as you have masterd proportions, and anatomy, and composition and everything along the realistic style nature then let that naturalistic learned style flow over to your anime art that we all love to draw.

Yeah, that goes without saying... though the amount of anime 'artists' who disregard this is staggering. I like to think (and I'm probably talking crap here) that the proportions of my characters are pretty nice, as I use photo reference for all of the poses. This involves me standing in some embarassing positions, but what the hell...lol.


Now talking about the old anime vrs the new anime..well im sure companies just want to produce the hottest fastest money cartoon they can, and have it as fast as they can so kids can view it and give them money in someway well thats however might work for them, but im sure that if you do anime like the old style and apply your naturalistic art to your anime style, then people will flock to see your drawings and anime then look at some anime that looks like it was half assed.

Again, very true. It does seem to be all about rehashing the quickest, cheapest looking piece of shit as humanly possible, and getting it out there for kids who are seemingly blind to watch. It's stunning how even Japanese viewers don't notice the drop in quality... the recent Zeta Gundam movies use old footage from the 80s series, and redraw new scenes. Seeing a beautifully shaded, colourful 80s character walk out of a door, only to emegre the other side as a flat, grey mockery of digital crap is pretty heartbreaking. Old and new art, side by side in the same films! And nobody noticed the difference! It's totally insane... like modern Japanese artists physically do not have the ability to draw characters that detailed anymore. One minute they look amazing, and in the next scene they've been drawn by a chimp in boxing gloves. It's a fucking disgrace to Zeta Gundam, I tell you.

[JenZee]

Haha! Nicely spotted. But that picture is actually Lemnear from Legend of Lemnear, an old show. I have the art book here. Satoshi Urushihara is indeed still working in games and anime, but if you look at Plastic Little (which looks amazing and moves so smoothly it feels like a baby's ass) and compare it to the new Langrisser anime (which looks horrible and has none of his signature shading), you can see that modern anime atrists have even taken the great Satoshi's art style and raped it half to death, leaving it with flat, emotionless lineart and grey, washed out colours. And that makes me cry.

Shoot, I meant Lemnear haha. I bought the comic years ago, sitting in my shelf right now :). Lots of boobies. Should've included the lower half of that picture! jk!

I never really caught the drop in quality for Wolf's Rain at all. I thought it was quite good the whole way through. Didn't like the story that well, but the art and stylization was quite beautiful. Also, I'm not sure if you're saying Fist of the North Star has good art or bad? Eyes bleeding is usually a bad thing... but I thought the art in FotNS was terrible! Just an opinion of course.

I dunno, I have trouble agreeing that the simpler designs of today are "much worse" by "real criteria" of art standards. I don't think there's exists a relatively infallible standard set of heuristics which you can judge art by... It all comes down simply to whether or not something "looks good." Art is afterall, forever subjective. I think all will have to agree to disagree on this particular topic :)

I just have issue with people dismissing anime as an artform altogether. Perhaps it's not an art form some individauls *enjoy*, but it still, very muchly so qualifies.

[Paul "Otaking"]

Shoot, I meant Lemnear haha. I bought the comic years ago, sitting in my shelf right now :). Lots of boobies. Should've included the lower half of that picture! jk!

I never really caught the drop in quality for Wolf's Rain at all. I thought it was quite good the whole way through. Didn't like the story that well, but the art and stylization was quite beautiful. Also, I'm not sure if you're saying Fist of the North Star has good art or bad? Eyes bleeding is usually a bad thing... but I thought the art in FotNS was terrible! Just an opinion of course.

Heh heh... yeah, it must be said that Satoshi Urushihara is one of the all time great breast-drawing men, along with that old perv Masamune Shirow. Now little more than a hardcore porn artist! Lol.
Anyway, shame on you for buying manga filled with girls' bits. You're a girl, so it's wrong. Or alternatively...very very right. Hmm. :D

Um, Fist of the North Star...yeah, the first 20 episodes or so really don't look very good. They've dated badly, and didn't look astounding in the first place. However, if you keep watching, something insane happens. The artwork and animation become almost movie-quality as the series gets more popular and more and more cash gets pumped into it. At several points I couldn't believe that it was just a TV series, it looked so good. When Ken finally has the big fight with Raoh (only 7 epiosdes or so) they do a completely new opening sequence just for that fight... and it's such a well animated opening that they're clearly just showing off by that point.
Easily the best fighting anime ever made. And so much shading! My shit, it looks nice if you stick with it! Nicer than a pool full of pirahnas made entirely out of jewels.

[chaosrocks]

duck taping puffins to your head sounds like fun.....but not for the puffins
chaos

[Lohan]

i find your "new bad" anime much more visually pleasing than the old stuff. there are more anime nowadays so its hard to find the good stuff, but its just as good or better as the stuff in the 80's. stuff like evangelion, champloo, miyazaki, the new ghost in the shell, all great. just as much as akira, ninja scroll, old gits.

[Hyskoa]

ah dear lord, if death note isn't a work of art, I don't know what is.

[Elwell]

Paul, I did a little experiment. I thought to myself, "self, I bet his date for the Decline of Anime corresponds exactly with his early twenties." Then I checked your profile. Bingo!
I hate to break it to you, but you grew up. Now you're that guy who complains about kids these days, with their food pills and flying cars... Music/movies/comics/fashion/WHATEVER will never be as good as they were when you were between the ages of, say, ten and twenty-two. Just ask Ilaekae.

[Ilaekae]

...ummmm...I really don't remember much of 19 through 22 (I was...SLEEPING A LOT! Okay? ...shit...), but that sounds just about right to me...

Anybody wanna play Pong?

[chaosrocks]

Im not sure remeber then either....it was the 70's.... and who wants to remember them? but goddess knows the fashions were WAYYYYYY>>>worse!
(see my halloween pic)

chaos

[Ilaekae]

Woof! Woof! Hi there, Pretty Lady...can I buy you a boilermaker with whipped cream and a cherry on top...a new car...a new house...southern New york State...?

OW!







...bartender, can you get my teeth off the chandelier, please?

8)

[BlackGuy]

Well it really does look like you're basis for comparison is detail which doesn't make a lot of sense for animation. I mean that image of naruto you've got up there is washed out because it was setting up a mood, and it isn't very detailed with the shading but the animation for that episode was mind blowing. I think I agree with pretty much everything JenZee said.

[Chiko]

Well it really does look like you're basis for comparison is detail which doesn't make a lot of sense for animation. I mean that image of naruto you've got up there is washed out because it was setting up a mood, and it isn't very detailed with the shading but the animation for that episode was mind blowing. I think I agree with pretty much everything JenZee said.

I have to disagree with alot of the naruto animation, most of the fight scenes were taken shot for shot from Bebop and old bruce lee movies. It's a bit like cheating!

[skvv]

Paul, I did a little experiment. I thought to myself, "self, I bet his date for the Decline of Anime corresponds exactly with his early twenties." Then I checked your profile. Bingo!
I hate to break it to you, but you grew up. Now you're that guy who complains about kids these days, with their food pills and flying cars... Music/movies/comics/fashion/WHATEVER will never be as good as they were when you were between the ages of, say, ten and twenty-two. Just ask Ilaekae.


LOL elwell... you're good, I too am in my early 20's and have started feeling like an old fart when i say certain things about current culture.

I'm a lot more inclined to believe older people now on just about anything.

[Sinix]

I like the new stuff alot better. I always thought the old stuff was too sloppy with colors. The color theory today is much better, and so are the designs, and the animation quality. I think it's too bad you can't enjoy it, because there's plenty of great stuff to take out of anime.

[BlackGuy]

I have to disagree with alot of the naruto animation, most of the fight scenes were taken shot for shot from Bebop and old bruce lee movies. It's a bit like cheating!


I'm not talking about the show as a whole, I was talking about that episode and like 4 others done by the same team. From what I understand, most of the angles chosen were directly from the manga.

[ArtEdGradStudent]

I feel the same way about most console video games. My favorite console ever was Super NES, and damn Nintendo for ending it. Once they got to the N64, the games didn't look any nicer, they just switched to polygons. Honestly, the first polygon games on Super NES, like Starfox were good enough. But more importantly, the sidescrolling Super NES games like Castlevania 4, Super Contra, and Super Mario 4 are some of the all time greatest games, and few if any newer games have surpassed them.

Now granted some recent games are really wonderful to play and watch, and work well with the new graphics machines, just like some recent animations look really good - see Mayazaki. But, the reason why they're so good is the artists and programmers put lots of time and care into them.

The general trend I think you're referring to, which I agree with is that, since modern computers and software make it easier to throw together a product, mass produce it, and cut back on quality, many profit driven companies are compelled to do it. That's why so many recent anime flicks are craptastic.

The genre as a whole has some great classics, though, and it's still got a bright future ahead, amid all the schlock. when you see enough art, you begin to realize every genre has some schlock to wade through, on the way to the real gems.

[Seedling]

So the question is - what do you think of anime as art?'

In order to answer your question, you must first define "art".











*runs and hides in the nearest bomb shelter, giggling wickedly*

[ArtEdGradStudent]

Art is communication

[Shamagim]

Hehehe, I´m afraid Elwell is right :), you grew up, the things that are "cool" now are not the same as before.


AND you are supporting the notion that old anime is better by comparing old cinematic quality ( or mini series) with new cheap tv series ...That´s an unfair fight when it comes to budget.

[DesperateCuban]

Uhh... these animes have actual storylines and if your only criteria for watching is cause "they look cool" you're missing out on a lot. Also like Shamagim said you're comparing movies and ovas with series like Naruto where they have two hundred and something episodes with a short time for creating them. Everyone has different tastes In my case prefer the newer simpler looking but smoother animated anime to the old more detailed ones.
Stop complaining about how they look and start complaining about those god awful dubs!!!:P

[HunterKiller_]

Don't bash anime. Just because there are some rather low quality anime series being churned out to scam kids money doesn't exclude anime as an art.

Yes, there is a huge trend of little kids drawing shitty anime all other the internet these days, that's probably something that is altering your view of modern anime.

[2100]

you have no taste.

[kallisti]

At least 12 new anime series for tv come out each season alone, the quality is going to be vastly different than that of a miyazaki movie. I personally like the cleaner aesthetic and feel it's evolved.

I don't think you can look at just line quality alone, that's like looking through a pinhole and only covers one aspect of the whole. Rather it should be a sign of a flourishing market of styles and tastes. Anyone who can pick up a pencil and try hard enough can get their stories published because it's so prolific. Maybe even turn it into an anime. Some mangas become popular so fast that they're still in production while the anime is being produced. One of my most favorite mangas Blame! is so messy style-wise, but it along with the story, the whole, is amazing and creates such wonderful energy and drama. You know what this means? It means people can be who they want to be and say what they want to say, and not be forced into drawing only a certain way and telling a story a certain way. It's a very healthy market.

There's such a wide range of concepts in storylines that I've NEVER seen before in american works, (hello death note) it blows my mind. Works are quite abundant and there's a much larger market for manga which allows for the range of storyline and style, it's for everyone and it's not just sub-culture fodder for jay and silent bob movies.

Your 3rd reference for the new anime Paradise Kiss is a great show, was a very popular manga, and has great line quality for an anime. It's just not your preference. It's also more suited for girls, a rare sight in u.s. comics. :|

[Paul "Otaking"]

Lol... Elwell, you are quite right. The reason I haven't posted in a while is because I fell asleep for the past 12 hours! Heh heh... no joke! I am quite an old man, after all. ^__^

Guys, guys guys....

Art is subjective? You can't say which is better? That's what most of you are saying, right? You still reckon modern anime is crisper and better. You've all been convinced, in fact that it isn't grey and colourless because it's easier and cheaper to produce that way, but because it's looks better. One person I spoke to even thinks honestly that Akira, the most critically acclaimed anime movie ever, doen't look any better than a TV episode of Inu Yasha!

As well as a video game artist/animator, I'm a translator by trade (hence why I'm sitting here in my pants. English pants, that is, not trousers.), - I've done the in-game text for Half Life 2 (arcade version), Ikusagami, Bomberman press releases for Hudson, instruction manuals for R-Type and I currently have a contract to translate three light novels for GoManga...though non disclosure doesn't allow me to say which of their "coming soon" titles it is. I'm not showing off, just establishing that I know what I'm talking about, here. Because exactly the same thing happened in the translation industry. A few decades ago, people said you couldn't say which translation is better, because it's subjective, like art. Because people had so much trouble arguing over what made a good translation - just like here on this forum, in fact, but with modern anime art - they realised they were getting nowehere, and devised a system now known as translation quality assessment. This allows companies to use concrete factors and physical criteria to actually judge a translation, and this system is now used all over the world to 'mark' translations... based on adherence to the message of the original text, localisation, fludity of English (in the Japanese-English translations at least), and generally how naural it sounds, whilst keeping all of the information and 'feel' of the original writing.

Can you see what I'm getting at? Because people have such a hard time saying which style of anime art is 'better,' I have used the same kind of criteria to crtically 'mark' anime art across a range of tangible properties. Because you can't look at art without being biased, this is the only way to look at anime art subjectively. I've weighed and contrasted each part of what goes into making an anime cel, and I've done it clinically, without bias. Because otherwise, you'll just end up saying whatever you grew up wathcing is the best, as many of you have rightly said.

Even so, all of the counter arguments on this board have pretty much ignored this. I say that modern anime art is inferior to classic anime art because of this, this this and this, and I've backed my words up. But all of the arguments against me are, basically, 'you can't judge art, and new anime looks better in my opinion.' EVEN THOUGH I've just spent ages critically proving that 80s art is cleaner, more detailed, better shaded and better in colour values.

Here's my last image. Please have a look at it. If you think the images on the right look 'better' than the images on the right, then there really, really is no point me arguing any further, because something other than logic must be at work if that's the case.

All of the screenshots on the image I've uploaded are actual screengrabs from real titles, unaltered and not doctored in any way. They're all exactly the size they appeared on the PC monitor... there are even subtitles on some of them to prove it.

[seba_boi]

I like the old style better too... A lot of the new ones are more plasticky... And the character designs seems to have demised... Even though I won't be gushing over the new styles, some of them still win me over their stories... Monster, GITS: SAC, Fullmetal Alchemist, One Piece (thank goodness you made the cutoff on 1999, 'cuz you would've gotten so much flak with Cowboy Bebop being made in 1998 )... Although I must say, the backgrounds in most anime (especially movies) have improved in leaps and bounds...

And while we're on the subject, anybody recommend me to blind-buy Steamboy?...

[JenZee]

Bigass Image you linked with text reading:



"Come on, let's stop being silly now. If you can still say modern anime looks better, then there's nothing more to say really.


Well there really is nothing to say if you're going to insist that those who disagree with you (on a widely acknowledged subjective topic) are "silly." Why are you even asking for others' opinions, if you cannot respect them? Discussion is fine, calling names, and a condescending attitude is not.

Hopefuly we can talk about this like mature people.

I personally view the change in art style (or in your terms 'effort'), as something akin to the phenomena found everywhere in life as time goes by. All things change with time. In fine art, when Impressionism came about, it was something very different, very simple, almost *lazy,* yet undeniably beautiful when done correctly. Of course, there are plenty of badly drawn shows today, however that does not disqualify the entire genre as a whole. Art does not always need to be detailed, and realistic. You mentioned that you would love to see Ouran Host Club drawin in a style similar to Fist of the North Star, but I simply could not imagine it. I think the simple, almost paper-cut-out art style they used suits the show much better than a serious style would. In my opinion, the styles which you're hooked on give no room for expressing the fun of shows today.

[goldenavatar]

I always figured the changing look in various anime was just normal for any art, but I suppose this is food for thought, though I don't know how long my siv of a mind will stay interested in the subject. However, I'm curious, where does one fit in this discussion if they don't have any perceptions of the older cartoons as being of better quality than the more recent? I mean, what if you like it for reasons that aren't concerned about the art of the time, but rather appreciate the distraction provided, however short lived, by any 22 minute episode of animated cartoon?

[Shamagim]

You are still comparing big budget productions such as OVA´s and Movies to Low budget TV series.

Fair fight would be you to compare productions of equal or similar budget.

(seba-boi, It looks like a nice film...I would say "go for it")

[hito]

I see Anime as Art in the sense that its well crafted and thoughtout construct, like any quality film. Its not art in the Framed in a Gallery sense. I've seen anime incorporated in gallery works; it was interesting and so was the intent behind the paintings, but it didn't quite click with me.

Seba-boi
I recommend renting Steamboy first before you buy. I found it rather weak story-wise. Craft wise its typical of Otomo standards, which is to say extremely well made and designed. But then I recommend rent before buy on almost all animated movies.

[blog]

what kind of a stupid ass question is that?!

[Paul "Otaking"]

Well there really is nothing to say if you're going to insist that those who disagree with you (on a widely acknowledged subjective topic) are "silly." Why are you even asking for others' opinions, if you cannot respect them? Discussion is fine, calling names, and a condescending attitude is not.



Oh, come on... surely you could see I was joking? Besides, even if was being serious in calling people silly, that would be pretty articulated for an internet-based argument! lol.

And what I meant with Ouran host club wasn't that I think it should have a different art style... true, Hokuto no Ken probably wouldn't suit it. I just meant that any modern anime at all would look a million times better with some good old school 80s shading.
And in typical Johnson fashion, I then spent like an hour doctoring the following image in a futile attempt to prove my point...

Shamagim- I see your point and raise you twenty. But to be honest, the later of episodes of Fist of the North star (TV series) looke better than any of the classic examples I used. Whereas the recent Hellsing (OVA series) looks just as bad as the new examples. But I see what you mean... I really should dig up clips from both those shows and post them, perhaps.

seba_boi - Bebop is why I always quote the cutt off point as being 1999. I love Bebop with a passion! I'm so glad it wasn't made a year later, or it would have looked all washed out and computery.

[Seedling]

Paul – I like the unshaded versions better – it looks more like traditional Japanese woodblock prints.

See? Highly subjective. :-)


Art is communication

lol! I can hear those three words ticking. Either you are naive, or you are some sort of masochist. Considering that you are voluntarily on your way to teaching highschool students, it must be the latter. ;-)

*retreats to the bomb shelter*

[Elwell]

Looks a lot nicer to me! I have no horse in this race, since i don't particularly care about anime one way or another...
but NO!
(And in both versions, the bigger issue is that the character clashes terribly with the background.)

[Paul "Otaking"]

Lol...yeah, but I wasn't going to redraw the background as well! ^_^ I knew everyone would think the flat, rubbish looking pic would look better, so it wasn't worth spending another 3 hours doctoring someone else's work...

[Hyskoa]

In gthe ouran host club comparison I also like the clean cut version a lot better.
Death note, bebop, slayers, one piece.
All works of art.
The style fits the serie. Period.

[machzero]

umm wait.. a lot of the "nicer" looking sample art comes from OVA or movies (with considerably higher budgets), while most of the flat shaded examples are from TV series.

Heck, the lemnear and gunbuster artwork's look like they're from posters and are not cells (prolly have some of urashihara's or mikimoto's artbooks from that era too).

the nice looking 0083 scenes were mainly stationary too. Not to mention most of the final battle scenes were a single cell pasted on a background... add laser shots, and lot's of camera movement.

now most 80s TV series... were examples of how cheap it got occasionally, one tone shading, non-moving "animation", and lot's of wind blowing. Hey, there was crap then, there's still crap now.


*gets flashback of watching tapes shows with rec.arts.anime translated printouts*

[Matsign]

I have to disagree with alot of the naruto animation, most of the fight scenes were taken shot for shot from Bebop and old bruce lee movies. It's a bit like cheating!

Whaaaa? I never noticed, I'll have to check that out man.

[Brendan N]

I'd have to disagree stonrgly. I think in modern Anime the colours have been used much better, not blinding me with the a-la second grade colour palette of earlier decades. I'm much more for the subtle use of colour and the simplified renderings than the overdone frames of the eighties. Same with Western Comics - used to be nauseatingly colourful, but since Frank Miller things have come along nicely. Panels are far more readable and not near as confusing.

Have you seen "Spirited Away"? (Not sure if it has come up). Looks far better than anything before, and the new Ghost in the Shell movie has some stunning visuals. Besides, your just taking the best of the old and comparing with the worst of the new like Shamagim said. How bout you take Grave of the Fireflies and put it right up against Spirited Away, would you?

I'm with all the others, anime is art, but it's a cliched style and something you shouldn't leap onto when you can explore so many other avenues.

- d.

[ah.heng]

it should also be noted that macross plus is still the highest budgeted OVA ever produced. it wasn't that the macross zero team couldn't match the framerate because they didn't have the skill, they just didn't have the same budget.

[JenZee]

Oh, come on... surely you could see I was joking? Besides, even if was being serious in calling people silly, that would be pretty articulated for an internet-based argument! lol.

And what I meant with Ouran host club wasn't that I think it should have a different art style... true, Hokuto no Ken probably wouldn't suit it. I just meant that any modern anime at all would look a million times better with some good old school 80s shading.
And in typical Johnson fashion, I then spent like an hour doctoring the following image in a futile attempt to prove my point...

I still prefer the original :p. I feel like something excessively dramatic and dark is going to happen in the photoshopped one, like he's suddenly going to transform into a giant monster of hell (and for the record... though I am a big fan of some of the 80s shows, I think Akira's art really isn't anything that interesting lol). and It's obvious that you have a big preference for the 80's style (you can tell your art is highly influenced by it). Of course, all that repeated animation shouldn't be missed. It's hard to judge artwork which is inherantly filled with motion, on a cell by cell basis. I would be more inclinced to discuss the quality of pinups rather than the quality of a screenshot, if we're not going to reference the film as a whole.

Man all this talk of Macross is making me want to re-marathon it... and top it off with the LOVELY Macross Zero!

[Denart]

you just like the "shading" is all

please, there's more to art than just that. Modern anime has more style. Thats hot!

[Arne S.]

sorry, i´m too lazy too read this hole thing... -but this color-sample.. -did anyone realize, that the old one looks like a boy and the new one like a girl?
so.. what´s the point?

in this freaking big pic... the new samples have definitely the better color. and thre is only a different mood..

[kallisti]

The blocky shading is a style element, the quality put into the ova over that of a tv series is a whole different matter and the two should not be confused. If you're not going to watch an anime simply because the aesthetics are not suitable enough, then you're shooting yourself in the foot.

No one's having a hard time saying which anime is better. It's hard to take your argument seriously if you're going to continue to compare old ovas to new anime tv shows, it's not logical or analytical in any sense of the word. What works for language quality across all anime platforms does not work for image quality on all platforms, your logic is faulty, your examples are faulty and your conclusions are just silly.

If people like the newer anime tv series to the older ova's, then FLCL is a no brainer hit out of the ballpark. It had a good budget, but it didn't somehow fall into a timeloop and contain dated blocky shading, rather lots of style and experimentation, clean crisp colors, and good saturation. It is a matter of style and taste, and there's lots to choose from.

[anubis713]

I believe anime is "real art".
This is just a little about how anime started and how I consider it to be art in a different view then some.

It was a style adapted around 1956-1958.
Osamu Tezuka was considered the "Disney of Japan" and the Hapanese "God of comics".
He created comics and cartroons featuring a wide range of artistic genres ranging from the very commercial to more artistic.
He basically made the first magna.
He was highly influenced by Disney's and FLiescher's characters. His take on their characters led the foundations of the "anime style".

If you look closely at his Astroboy series, you can see a bit of early mickey mouse and some of betty boop style to it.

I look at anime as a genre that has adapted through the years just as any other animation out there.
Yes there are some pretty shitty animes out there, but there are tons of shitty American cartoons that have been produced through the years as well.

I would have to say the best animated feature of anime would have to be Spirited Away. Hiyao Miyazaki is one incredible artist!

[HunterKiller_]

I just realized something else.
The 'wonderfully shaded old anime' looks quite americanized.

[IILooney]

Only hentai is real art.

[Paul "Otaking"]

Machzero - Yeah, indded there are some unfair comparisons between ovas and tv series there. That's because I was rushed... but as I've said before, Hokuto no Ken's later episodes look as good if not better than the 80s examples I've used... and that's a TV series. Dragonball Z is a TV series and has shading easily on par with the examples, too. The amazing thing is that shading of this level wasn't confined to OVAs, but can be seen in all manner of 80s Tv series too.
On the other hand, Hellsing and other modern OVA series look about the same as the TV examples. They don't have any more shading; they just move a bit smoother.

Brandan N - Spirited Away is excellent, but looks no different to any of Ghibli's earlier character design work or shading. They're the *only* studio whose stuff still looks as good as it did. I watched Grave of the Fireflies the other day, and yes, it is extremely comparable to Spirited Away. Ghibli are just great.
On the contrary, compare the recent movie Steam Boy (in development for 10 years) to the team's earlier Akira, and Steam Boy looks extremely nasty in comparison. Budget restraints, I guess.

Ah.Heng- You said it! Lol. It's not that anime directors make a conscious choice to make everything grey and bland (as many fans of modern stuff choose to believe), but that they don't have the money anymore. The 80s was the golden era of anime because it was the height of Japan's economic boom.

JenZee - Macross Zero is easily the best CG there is. I just don't really feel anything at all when I look at CG is the problem. I know that all they had to do was build one model of a Valkyrie, and that's most of the work done. Mac Plus, on the other hand, required redrawing the planes on every single frames, and the choreography is still light years ahead of Zero. Oh well...

Denart - If by 'style' you mean less skill, less colour, less detail and less movement, you're absolutely right. You should look at some of the old 80s camera work... I was watching Space Adventure Cobra the other day, and two people were talking as they opened a door. The camera aoomed around them 360 degrees as they talked, tracked in on the key and followed it into the lock - just for a conversation scene. In modern anime, that would have clearly been two still faces with only their mouths moving. Come on, you know *that's* true, at least!

Arne - It's an odd one, that. It's actually a girl in the series, but she's meant to look like a guy and confuse everyone.

Kallisti - Thing is, there are hundreds of 80s anime shows with good stories AND good artwork. So why should I bother watching some new show that has a good story and no decent artwork? That's the glory of anime - there's so many billions of titles that I never have to run out of old stuff to watch for the first time. Don't get me wrong... Full Metal Alchemist was excellent up until they diverged from the manga, but it was still pig ugly. Why bother with it, when I can watch Bubblegum crisis and have my eyes actually bleed because the artwork is so ridiculously good?

HunterKiller -that's another good point. People say "all 80s anime was girls with big eyes," but they just haven't had their eyes own open. There were a plethora of vastly differing styles in 80s anime... Buichi Terasawa in particular drew very western looking characters, and Golgo 13 was more American looking than a lot of US comics. It's odd, but modern anime all looks the same to me. Grey, with big pocking lips and badly drawn eyes.

IILooney - You actually make a very good point. Nowadays, it's only modern hentai art that still looks anything like old anime. So yeah, only hentai is real art! Lol

And finally, have a lok at this. I tried adapting one of my characters into the new anime style, adhering strictly to the shading and linework of several screenshots of Paradise Kiss. The result is accurate, and makes me want to die so the pain will go away.

[Seedling]

Paul, overlooking the fact that your “modern style” drawing looks like you crafted it with deliberate sloppiness and haste to prove your own point, still, the amount of time invested in a piece does not equate to its worth.

You also seem to be overlooking the fact that all anime is "modern". The differences in style that happen over mere decades isn't even going to register as a blip in the continuum of art history.

Animation is expensive to make. So what if there’s a lot of low-quality animation being made? It keeps the public interested in the genre, and ensures that money keeps flowing into the industry. Out of the masses of crap arises the occasional gem – as with every other media.

[Mike Dutton]

Paul, I did a little experiment. I thought to myself, "self, I bet his date for the Decline of Anime corresponds exactly with his early twenties." Then I checked your profile. Bingo!

There is way too much reading to do in this thread, but I'm glad i stuck around long enough for this paragraph. Cracked me up.

And Paul, it looks like you simply prefer heavy saturation to high key value schemes when deciding between good and bad. I'm not going to state my preference, but in most cases, more is not necessarily better.

[Onis]

My opinion?

The old animes look plain ugly to me. The shading is too dramatic, too saturated as well the style the faces are drawn are just simply... not to my taste. The lines are blocky and overall I don't like the composition and the highly "dramatic" effects.

I admit it's better drawn and used more time in shadows and lights.

The modern anime, however... it looks comfortable to my eye, the lines are smooth, the colors don't hurt my eyes. It's balanced as well the colors look natural. Also instead of using 500 extra hours on creating shadows that barely no one notices, they (hopefully) have used more time in storylines and such.

[Cwn Annwn]

I liked the old days better, tomatoes tasted like tomatoes cos they were grown by real farmers and the women didn't go around wearing next to nothing...

[rustikof]

this really comes down to a matter of personal taste.

I think alot of the stuff from back in the 80's looks like busy, over cluttered junk that shouldn't see the light of day again.

and that alot of the stuff these days ...like, just for instance, FLCL, or ANYTHING by Miyazaki looks MILES ahead in terms of overall technique and animation than the others in the 80's could have even touched.

Except for Akira.

That is a man's man.

In regards to what you pointed out in your first post:

I would say in terms of shading, if a line is able to convey the depth of the form they are drawing in as simple a way as possible while still retaining enough information to recognize what it is (which, just from one of your examples, the boy the towel over his neck does), then more power to them. They have done their job, and don't need any extrenuous information, that would---like a stated earlier---clutter the image and make it look too busy when it doesn't need to be. Shading doesn't necessarily make something better.

[rblitz7]

IMO anime is ridiculous because it constricts everybody to drawing with very similar style. Yes, the the creators of the anime style did create art but some people that just copy the style are not, IMO.

[kallisti]

IMO anime is ridiculous because it constricts everybody to drawing with very similar style. Yes, the the creators of the anime style did create art but some people that just copy the style are not, IMO.

I think you may have an ethnocentric view on this. I would call the copies practice, it's the same with anything else. Through practice you eventually come to your own conclusions about details and there's your style. It only constricts if you allow it to. The range of work I've seen in "anime" style is massive, some completely different from one another and some not, some using pencil and watercolour, some purely digital, some more manga influenced while others more animation influenced. It's actually using the word anime itself that is very constrictive. It's really no different then the kind of artwork you see here, some artists share similar qualities and some don't, this is no different.

Watercolour and pencil, simple style: http://migi.moo.jp/
Manga influence: http://www5e.biglobe.ne.jp/~makofu/kuro_002.htm (the lotr fanart is amazing btw)

See how these are vastly different from one another and yet alike? It is in no way less worthy of praise, it's just a different approach.

I'd say for most it's hard to see asian work the same way as u.s. work because no one really gets to see the personal small works of the everyday joe who likes to draw and post it on the internet.

[rblitz7]

I think you may have an ethnocentric view on this. I would call the copies practice, it's the same with anything else. Through practice you eventually come to your own conclusions about details and there's your style. It only constricts if you allow it to. The range of work I've seen in "anime" style is massive, some completely different from one another and some not, some using pencil and watercolour, some purely digital, some more manga influenced while others more animation influenced. It's actually using the word anime itself that is very constrictive. It's really no different then the kind of artwork you see here, some artists share similar qualities and some don't, this is no different.

Watercolour and pencil, simple style: http://migi.moo.jp/
Manga influence: http://www5e.biglobe.ne.jp/~makofu/kuro_002.htm (the lotr fanart is amazing btw)

See how these are vastly different from one another and yet alike? It is in no way less worthy of praise, it's just a different approach.

I'd say for most it's hard to see asian work the same way as u.s. work because no one really gets to see the personal small works of the everyday joe who likes to draw and post it on the internet.
ah ok I see your point. It just really bothers me when kids just draw manga stuff and dont even know anything about color and anatomy.

[Paul "Otaking"]

IMO anime is ridiculous because it constricts everybody to drawing with very similar style. Yes, the the creators of the anime style did create art but some people that just copy the style are not, IMO.


Balderdash, sir! Lol. If you think it all looks the same, you can't have watched enough anime. And the new stuff doesn't count, as it *does* all look the same, I agree. But look at these classics/
Golgo 13 (top right) looks practically American!

Though I agree, newbie kids who've only seen 2 shows (both of them on cartoon Network and with all violence edited out) trying to draw anime style is pretty embarassing.

[Kman.]

I definitely feel its all about personal taste. I like a lot of different styles, it really just depends on the artist. I like a lot of old school stuff and a lot of new stuff too, it really just depends.

Overall, I think anime is definitely art. Just as much as anything else that is drawn and colored and has a particular style.

[Slate]

Takashi Murakami seems to think so.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Takashi_Murakami

But his defining criteria seem to be a bit different than your own.

[entdroid]

I'm not an anime fan, but I do love quite a few series and movies, and I have only two words to prove this whole "old anime is better than new anime" point utterly wrong, and those two words are "Samurai Champloo".
Just the best color palettes, graphic design, action sequences and stylization EVER known to japanese animation series.

That affirmation of old stuff being better than new stuff relies merely on the fact that you like one better, but it's just a generalization with no real basis, I could do the same thing taking bad examples of old anime and good examples of new anime to show everyone an empiric proof of my point, but it will be rather pointless. There are good artists and bad artists in all decades, and 10 or 12 years are just too few to draw a real line, to make a real difference between "old" and "new" anyway.
The quality doesn't depend on the time it was made, but on WHO made it, just like in any style out there. Ghibli did and still does awesome stuff (and I actually like their recent stuff more for that matter). And there are lots of other examples, like Cowboy Bebop, Blood: the last vampire, Boogiepop Phantom or Steamboy of really cool and rather recent stuff, besides some of those supposedly bad examples you posted (though I don't agree in many of those comparisons, just because something is simpler or more stylized doesn't mean it's worse).

I think maybe we should start trying to avoid these manichaean points of view and start to acknowledge the fact that there are grays, not all is black and white. Just my two cents.

[CaptainInsano]

paul otaking


some anime back in the day was great. Some were just awful. Same goes with today. Some are great, some suck. The subject of anime being in decline (or not) isn't very important enough to revolve my life around the matter.

and yes... anime is definately art. like it or not.

[Kman.]

Vampire Hunter D: Blood Lust

2001.

[Icon]

this thread is kind of silly and too indepth just to say the following " hey guys, I like old anime, whoooo's with mee??"

It's all taste and preference.we could sit here all day talking about it and reach the same conclusion.... I like style a, and you like style b. So what else can we add to the discussion?

edit: and the fanatic in me decided to write some more! There are anime's out there that completely blow off this whole discussion with their wonderful art. Samurai Shamploo, Howl's moving castle, Spirited Away, Eureka 7, Ghost in the Shell 2: Innocence, and others. There are shots in these films and series that are pure genius! For example, the train above the sea for spiritied away still makes me all weepy. So learn to observe and appreciate all forms of art, whether you like them or not. Otherwise it's like telling yourself "I want to be a half-assed artist!" .

[Paul "Otaking"]

I'm not an anime fan, but I do love quite a few series and movies, and I have only two words to prove this whole "old anime is better than new anime" point utterly wrong, and those two words are "Samurai Champloo".
Just the best color palettes, graphic design, action sequences and stylization EVER known to japanese animation series.



Sorry, but Champloo looks hideous to me. I can't believe it's by the same people who did Cowboy Bebop.
Colour palettes are grey and dull. It just looks... 'digital' and clinical. Sterile, I think.
Graphic design - the promotional art is pretty cool, but the whole 'grafitti art crossed with traditional woodblock' though interesting, isn't really my thing.
Action sequences - inferior to Bebop, Hokuto no Ken and other exceptionally well animated action shows. Macross Plus walks all over it, I'm afraid. Even Samurai 7 (a moden anime) has a higher framerate on much of its fighting.

If you honestly think it looks better than Bebop (a true classic anime), then your eyes are misconfigured in some way. that's not an insult, I'm just saying that something must have happened to skew your perspective. maybe you've just done a 25 hour modern anime marathon or something?

[machzero]

hey paul,

i think this is turning into a trek vs. starwars thingy... neither side is going to change their mind and neither side is 100% right.


a lot of modern TV series have limited budgets. No one's going to take risk on new IPs, hence the huge amount of comic adaptations or sequels nowadays. Champloo is one of the few new ideas although i suspect they got less money than bebop. Afterall only 13 episodes of bebop were broadcast on TV, the remaining 13 were "pay per view"... so it could be considered having an OVA budget.


even mac plus and zero had pretty much the same teams. Again, the difference is most probably budget. The action choreography were both by i.itano of the "itano circus" fame (macross fan joke). And if you really want classic, 1984's "macross do you remember love" has 4-5 tone skin shading with action scenes that had to be watched in freeze frame to see everything (hurray for CAV LDs back then).

You can probably imagine the budget they had to play with.

[Paul "Otaking"]

hey paul,

i think this is turning into a trek vs. starwars thingy... neither side is going to change their mind and neither side is 100% right.

I think you're right. A freind of mine said to me on the phone yesterday that it just isn't worth arguing points like this, anyway. I use actual facts and say Akira is the highest budget anime movie ever made, the only movie with lip synching in the history of anime, and with the highest frame rate and production values yet seen... and then someone replies by saying I'm probably making all of that up, and that Inu Yasha, a bog standard modern TV show, is better. It's just too annoying to even bother with. I understand that people have opinions, but facts can be argued. And, in debates such as this, conveniently ignored by the people on the other side of the table who just like modern anime because it's what's on Cartoon Network now.


a lot of modern TV series have limited budgets. No one's going to take risk on new IPs, hence the huge amount of comic adaptations or sequels nowadays. Champloo is one of the few new ideas although i suspect they got less money than bebop. Afterall only 13 episodes of bebop were broadcast on TV, the remaining 13 were "pay per view"... so it could be considered having an OVA budget. .
You're right again... no wonder Bebop looks like an OVA. It's one of the two TV shows (the other being Escaflowne) that I originally thought were OVAs, such is their quality. The sheer level of background and character art can't hope to be even half equalled in the current cost-cutting, lazy anime production era. And that certainly goes for Champloo too, from the 26 episodes I've seen. The story is fine, yeah, but I really, really expected better artwork from the famed Bebop team.


even mac plus and zero had pretty much the same teams. Again, the difference is most probably budget. The action choreography were both by i.itano of the "itano circus" fame (macross fan joke). And if you really want classic, 1984's "macross do you remember love" has 4-5 tone skin shading with action scenes that had to be watched in freeze frame to see everything (hurray for CAV LDs back then)..

Lol... someone else besides me who knows about the circus! Nobody can survive a hit by the circus, I can tell you! Heh heh. I see Eureka 7 and various new anime have tried to pull it off... but who other than the creator, Itano, is gonna hide a Budweiser can amongst the missiles that you can only see on freeze frame!


You can probably imagine the budget they had to play with.

Indeed I can... Macross: Do you remember Love is my single favourite movie of all time, even above Robocop and Cameron's ALIENS. It was widely seen as the showpiece of the 80s economic boom animation in Japan, doing ridiculously over the top things with parallax scrolling and multi-plates that have technically never been seen since. It was literally a huge sack of money made into one of the slickest and best shaded and animated movies of all time.

...Though I'm sure most modern fans wouldn't be able to watch it. It would probably hurt their eyes because it's not grey.

[Seedling]

Hey Paul – I think you should go study an art history textbook for a while. Putting a little distance between yourself and anime may help you to get a broader perspective. I’m not saying your perspective is wrong, understand – I’m saying you seem to be seeing the subject from about two inches away.




On the subject of Samurai Champloo - I concur. It is one of the most gorgeous animes produced yet. The color palette is sophisticated, the linework is sexy, and the story and characters are intelligent and interesting.

[fedezz]

Colour palettes are grey and dull. It just looks... 'digital' and clinical. Sterile, I think.
Mmm, perhaps the Teletubbies is just the right show for you.

[entdroid]

If you honestly think it looks better than Bebop (a true classic anime), then your eyes are misconfigured in some way. that's not an insult, I'm just saying that something must have happened to skew your perspective. maybe you've just done a 25 hour modern anime marathon or something?

Well, I'm sorry, but just because you say the words "it's no an insult", it doesn't mean you're actually not being offensive. Instead of saying I have my eyes misconfigured, you could have bothered to read the rest of my post.
A response like the one you gave me, that basically consists in "if you don't agree with me, then something must be wrong with you" demonstrates only a childish attitude and a lack of open-mindedness that makes this whole discussion pretty pointless, for me at least.

[ManicShadow]

Personally, how cool the art looks in an anime doesnt matter at all to me. In Hellsing, my favorite, the art and the animation can look a little stinky sometimes, but the well written story, the great characters (Alucard :D), and the superb soundtrack overshadowed those insignificant flaws completely. It's an anime with a lot of personality. And I think we all know that personality always triumphs over beauty.

[rustikof]

paul....

you're not talking about anime being art anymore...now you're just talking about objective taste. Which hurts feelings and makes people mad..I mean, different strokes for different folks amirite?

SOOO getting back to the subject

would you consider any of the recent disney films to be filed under the "anime" influenced style? or does a movie HAVE to be made in japan for it to be anime? considering it is "japanese animation"...so are ALL animated movies in japan considered anime??????????

?!?!???!?!

[Elwell]

Hey Paul – I think you should go study an art history textbook for a while.
I think you should do anything besides spend all your time either (a)watching cartoons, (b)drawing cartoons, or (c)arguing about cartoons on the internet :P.
Kids these days, with their flying cars and food pills grumble grumble grumble...

[m@.]

are japanese people real people? I think they are robots. From outer space.

[Elwell]

are japanese people real people?
Of course they are real people. They all have saucer sized eyes and no nostrils and are TEH MOST AWSUMEST POEPLE EVARRRR!!!!1111

[GSwirly]

Hmm...I'll just go ahead and say I read only the first post. This is a long thread. For me, anyway.

I think both old and new are beautiful in their own right. Older's more detailed, new is nice and sleek and simple. I like them both for that.

And as for the definition of "art", well, I've given up on that. We've all got our own, and I brushed up my def just because I felt I needed to set some standards for myself.

Basically, according to me:
Art is self-contained, polished, and COMPLETED.

Sketches, doodles, and anything incomplete is excluded from that. For instance, math class. What do you call notes? Notes. Do you call a completed assignments "notes"? No. You call it an assignment. If I said it in a way that makes any sense. Excuse me, I ain't exactly WordMaster2000 right here.

The anime, old and new, fits that description of art of mine, so I'd say "yes".

But the shit that everybody around me seems to have spewing out of every orfice? NO. NO. That's jumping on a bandwagon and copping out of learning anatomy, color, and whatnot. I hate anime for its popularity. But don't get me wrong, I've seen some GORGEOUS, LOVELY anime. But it's hard to find, when you're sorting through a sea of...Sketchbooks of twelve-year-old otakutards. What can I say?

[Kman.]

yeah.. I agree on the 12 year old otakutards.

[Lurial]

If you honestly think it looks better than Bebop (a true classic anime), then your eyes are misconfigured in some way. that's not an insult, I'm just saying that something must have happened to skew your perspective. maybe you've just done a 25 hour modern anime marathon or something?

I'm sorry, but I found this comment to be so rude that I felt a little offended even though it wasn't directed at me. There is no need to insult other people in such a childish manner just because they disagree with you on matters of taste. This thread transformed from being a discussion about anime as an artform to being just a random forum thread where you repeatedly state how "Old anime is much better than new anime and if any of you disagree with me your eyes are clearly 'misconfigured!'"

Like rustikof said, different strokes for different folks.

You obviously love the older style and that's great. Other people clearly like the newer style and that's fine. Meanwhile, someone else reading these forums might absolutely hate the style of anime all together ... and that's perfectly acceptable as well. It's all just personal preference - insulting people over it will get you nowhere.

I personally find merit in both 'new' anime and 'old' anime for different reasons. To me, they are both respectable and beautiful forms of art. Sure there are a bunch of badly done anime out there right now, but there were a bunch of badly done anime in the 'old times' as well.

[Steph Laberis]

Not touching "is anime art".



Basically, according to me:

Art is self-contained, polished, and COMPLETED.

Sketches, doodles, and anything incomplete is excluded from that.

What the - a relevant place to apply my new sig?!

"A painting finished from edge to edge but poorly done is a waste of paint. An incomplete sketch superbly executed is power." - Richard Schmid

P.S. =^___________^=

[Seedling]

Basically, according to me:

Art is self-contained, polished, and COMPLETED.


I'm going to restrain my laughter a moment, and instead give an example.

Mt. Rushmore. Not finished. You'd say it's not art?

[Ilaekae]

...I'm siting here in the basement wondering whether to bang my head repeatedly into the wall for a week, or just hang myself and get it over with quick...




:dur:

[GSwirly]

I'm going to restrain my laughter a moment, and instead give an example.

Mt. Rushmore. Not finished. You'd say it's not art?

Well, actually, that and the thing about the "power" pictures I guess I haven't considered. I just made up my own definition for "art" just because I felt I wasn't finishing things as much as I should.

But okay, I'll add "half-assed" to the list of things art isn't.

[Steph Laberis]

...I'm siting here in the basement wondering whether to bang my head repeatedly into the wall for a week, or just hang myself and get it over with quick...
:dur:

Got room in that noose for two? Or how about I kick the stool out from under you and then lock myself in that old refridgerator in the corner? :frustrated:

[Seedling]

Well, actually, that and the thing about the "power" pictures I guess I haven't considered. I just made up my own definition for "art" just because I felt I wasn't finishing things as much as I should.

But okay, I'll add "half-assed" to the list of things art isn't.


It’s totally cool if you want your own definition of art to live and work by, especially if you need to break yourself out of a bad habit. Just be cautious about swinging that definition around like it’s a dead cat, because someone is going to object to the smell. :-P

;-)

[Gezstar]

if anyone wants to see some mindblowing art in japanese animation, check out the works of studio 4c. they did the beyond clip in animatrix, and the film 'mind game' amongst others.

[Haxxxor]

if you see anime as art than you can compare it to other art.
at the beginnings of oil painting, the old masters wanted realism. nowadays their isn't a need for that realism in every art its the same with animes.

another aspect is that the most companys have to produce more animes in less time, what would you do?

[kingshaj]

first off,
i think i would go as far as to say we should try to minimze the use of the word art here ('cept its in the name of the site:yayca: )


i often thought that this comparison is unfare

most of japanese tv ( i have been told) is anime if this is true...it would be lik e asking if Knight Rider is real art, ok perhaps thats a bad example (david hasslefoff's finest work i think) at any rate, we accept that 90 percent of western tv is crap, its a given...haha

[ASVogel]

Vampire Hunter D: Blood Lust

2001.

Word. Anything by Studio Madhouse is practically gold.

[Neolucifer]

Hum lets be honest Paul , while you may have some tidbits of truth about budget and animation , you're obviously quite biased in your choices of example and making them fit your argumentation .

And it shows incredibly well in a few examples from your little collage :
For starters , by some oddities you are mostly posting "classic" ovas against modern era tv series ....Are you afraid of comparing old series against new ones ? Some modern ova against olders ?

In one of the naruto picture you posted there is an undead character , so his overall "greyness" is quite a propos .
Whats also the point of posting the picture in front of Jotaro ? Its obvious that the character is completely white and pink and that its not an issue of coloring .. how is it even a possible proof of modern era's lack of coloring ?

Battle angel alita was an oav done by Madhouse with a design by Nobuteru Yuki ... How about putting it instead against his more recent stuff like Escaflowne , Heatguy J ?? You also mentioned Paradise Kiss as one of those anime that looks worse that stuff from the 80s . Paradise's look isnt , like you mentioned , a matter of girls "with "massive, pocking Angelina Jolie lips plastered to their face" .What you are calling here an " incredibly simplified, minimalistic art style" that no longer have something with anime , is just basically the same Nobuteru Yuki simply reproducing to the perfection the art of the mangaka Ai Yazawa . BTW an artist published since 1985 .. so hardly some kind of new "tasteless and simplistic" art spawned by the evil modern era .

You posted quite a few pics from Jojo's bizarre adventures oav . How about also posting a few from modern adaptations of Tetsuo Hara's stuff , with an style quite close , at least for the first parts of Jojo ? How about even comparing Hokuto no Ken against the recently released oavs , movie and simply even the new serie tv Souten no Ken ??

You post a pic of Guyver ova , yet somehow forget to post at least one from the recent tv serie ... Afraid of finding something quite close , aside from the obvious difference of budget between the tv and the oav series ?

See this is a quite modern anime named inuyasha , adaptation of the popular manga by Rumiko Takashi .
http://www.fullinuyasha.com/img/inuyasha-wallpapers/inuyasha-collage-wallpaper.jpg

Are you seriously telling me that one of the previous Rumiko's adaptation , the tv serie Ranma 1/2 really looks better while inuyasha looks badly colorized ?
http://www.geocities.com/Tokyo/Gulf/4458/ranorangeshirt.jpghttp://img.hebus.com/2004/12/18/041218194048_80.jpg

I also suppose that the following caps from Hunter x Hunter looks kind of blemish and colorless too ..

http://wallpapers.theotaku.com/images/640_by_480/127664-20060724162615.jpghttp://wallpapers.theotaku.com/images/640_by_480/47440-20060729192440.jpg

The "grey horror show" continues this time with prince of tennis , scryed :

http://wallpapers.theotaku.com/images/640_by_480/400578-20061127101301.jpghttp://wallpapers.theotaku.com/images/640_by_480/69231-20050721160930.jpg

Followed by Some Negima!? (the new serie of course) :

http://randomc.animeblogger.net/image/Negima/Negima%20-%2007%20-%20Large%2002.jpghttp://randomc.animeblogger.net/image/Negima/Negima%20-%2007%20-%20Large%2006.jpg
http://img153.imageshack.us/img153/3283/negima00py3.jpghttp://randomc.animeblogger.net/image/Negima/Negima%20-%2003%20-%20Large%2005.jpg
http://randomc.animeblogger.net/image/Negima/Negima%20-%2003%20-%20Large%2008.jpghttp://randomc.animeblogger.net/image/Negima/Negima%20-%2003%20-%20Large%2017.jpg
http://randomc.animeblogger.net/image/Negima/Negima%20-%2003%20-%20Large%2026.jpghttp://randomc.animeblogger.net/image/Negima/Negima%20-%2003%20-%20Large%2041.jpg

i'll just end here , i dont think i'll be wasting anymore time hunting down more pics .. i think it would be useless against so much bias ...
It even shows in your own work . Your rendition of Ouran is arguably worse than the original , making it even more generic ..
And you've purposely sabotaged your own drawing to "prove" something about coloring .

[kingshaj]

we are realy argueing the technical quality of a very narrow band of anime.
and it is a hard arguement to make that there have not been substantial technical improvements in cell animation since the 80s
particulary in the area of perspective, old anime was very flat, and when they gave you that 3/4 high angle shot, the people never fit right into the background....you rarely see this problem these days. Shows like "ghost in the shell" or "Samurai Cahmploo" , revel in this extreme angle style.

almost nothing in this industry or any industry is art
wouldnt be an industry if it was.

[SOLDIER-4th Class]

I don't know if u can really compare style from differant decades everything changes but one thing that is absolutly true is that, while i think there are plenty of well animated animes out there today, terribly drawn animes are definitly far more accepted now than ever before. but look at the old warner brothers cartoons compared to dexters laboratory and all the new amerian cartoons. i geuss crap just happens. that said its not like the old warner brothers cartoons are necissarily more enjoyable than the new stuff i loved dexter and tom & jerry as a kid. not long from now anime will probably get worse, look at whats really popular with kids now (at least in america) One Piece, Zatch Bell, Bobobobo whatever...and western countrys emulate it with pure donkey crap like Code Lyoko (dry heeve) and Robot Monkey Team....well i dont remember what my point was but the truth is that animation in general is going down the crapper probably because generations are born into certain styles of animation and companies can keep degrading quality slowly and get away with it. in the end only those that appreciate good art are going to suffer and frankley we are the minority

[bhanu]

man this thread is wierd. paul against the world I say. Dude what are you trying to do huh? YOu wanted to have a discussion but this aint no discussion. It seems more like you want to twist others arms in believing that old is gold. Its just perspective I say. About 6 months or so back i hated moidern art liek that , now I treat it with respect , I dont like it , theres just respect . I hope you also grow out of it- I hate new anime thingie.

[OntheroadtoACAD]

:Bump:

Art is more of a question of skill and creativity,(and in the case of animation.....animation skills.) not style, so I think this is an unfair claim. I like the modern anime style for its simplicity (Which has a beautiful look to it), but I love the classics for its detail. Anime is a form of art im my opinion, it still follows the basic principles, Its just a different style. Which like all art evolved over the last 10 or so years. By the way good topic I was thinking about starting a topic like this, since I never really seen one.

[Hai]

Alright, I skipped... a lot of this thread. But I just wanted to say that I'm 17, so I don't remember anything of the eighties, and I probably didn't hear about anime or see any anime 'till after 99 (alright actually I did see one series, but I think that was "americanized"), and I still think the old stuff looks way better than the new stuff (based on pictures provided by Paul Otaking). Uhm... yeah. That was it.

[Snuggles]

WTF does this have to do with...!? The hell!?

Anime is 'art' for a million different reasons, and, well, the discussion is useless. I kind of also don't understand this idea that things are all 'fluff' aren't 'art'. An anime series all about laughs and boobies isn't art, but one that questions the human soul is though, right?




So, by those standards, why in the blazing, effing hell is it 'art' when some 25 year old starving artist makes a painting of a farmhouse with no possible use other than hanging above an old ladies TV and looking pretty, wasn't even created with inspiration or feeling, just painted up in a day so he can get his supper? Not saying it's not art, because I understand the full circle of circumstance surrounding it. Just saying, if you're going to use that logic.


Anywhos, you'll be a better artist if you study more traditional things as well, but hell, being a lame anime fan is better than no art at all.

Edit: Please, people, cut the shit about old or new anime out. It's a medium, it goes through trends like everything else. If new anime is one way, that's what people want now. Big deal. If old anime doesn't look as 'crisp', it's due to limited technology, and I daresay, the hell is wrong with that anyway? On older, low quality sets it was much easier to do more bright, primary colors. Just technology and preference...so what?

[Mike Dutton]

Every time someone keeps this thread alive by posting, God kills a kitten. Speaking of which,"Just be cautious about swinging that definition around like it’s a dead cat, because someone is going to object to the smell." is my favorite quote in this entire thread (as much as I could read anyway).

[asoir]

Of course they are real people. They all have saucer sized eyes and no nostrils and are TEH MOST AWSUMEST POEPLE EVARRRR!!!!1111
LOL.
This wins the thread!

[Seedling]

Every time someone keeps this thread alive by posting, God kills a kitten. Speaking of which,"Just be cautious about swinging that definition around like it’s a dead cat, because someone is going to object to the smell." is my favorite quote in this entire thread (as much as I could read anyway).

Tee hee hee! :-)



Aww, shit, another dead kitten just spawned in my living room.

[Fingus]

After having seen FLCL and read Battle Angel Alita I can't say anything but yes.

The main problem with the style as I can see is the humble mentality of a lot of artists wich limits them to copying the styles of the established masters without properly understanding it instead of developing and mastering their own style.
Not to mention that a lot of western youth is tricked by the heavy focus on style so they don't notice the more subtle yet very accurate anatomy and end up drawing inaccurate overstylized garbage.

And now I'm bored, don't wanna type anymore...

[Orunitier]

Is anime real art? Of course it is. If Duchamp's L.H.O.O.Q. is considered art, then anime is doin' alright.
Sooo...what's the real point of this thread? Maybe it should be changed to IS CLASSICAL ANIME BETTER THAN MODERN, 'cause that's all I'm hearing.

[gascogne]

funny my painting professors accuse anime, or rather the artists drawing anime as not artist at all. LOL at that. :S (but me and my layout professor believes that they are just discriminating, ahhaha)

anyway, i am going to contradict you on the fact that the anime renderings had lessened in quality. it was just the general that you are seeing, so dont just rant or judge on it. if you really want to see good anime, you yourself should look for it. not just see some mainstream anime like Naruto or FMA and talk shit about it.

There are still a lot of animes that has superb animations and color rendering in this recent decade. i know because i've seen them. and anyway, the simplification of the style is because of the ever evolving art. its not just animes, but in any other art forms around. being simple does not mean it sucks. because how simple the thing might me, if you're a real artist, you'll know if it is done superbly. even if its just 2 or 3 tone or whatever.

[Hunger]

Anime is art. I don't see why not. But then again, I don't know the true definition of "art".

In my point of view I'd say anime has become better, not worse. I don't know exactly how to put it, but the less detailed characters looks more "clean and smooth". Of course this is a matter of opinion. There will be no "best" anime style, because if there was then everyone would agree without even putting up a disscussion about it.

[blacky]

Wasn't there an Asian artist group that tried to persiflage the kitsch of modern times, and failed because they couldn't come up with anything more corny than what already was accesible in stores and on TV?

[arttorney]

The real Art was this guy who had a TV show where he would interview kids and they would say the darnedest things, so no it's not.

[information_high]

Well...

This is pretty much a non-issue. Art is in the eye of the beholder. To me, the beauty of art is there is no clear definition of what 'is' and 'isn't'. Is japanese anime art? Of course it is... (Despite the hoardes of American nerds copying it and posting it on their deviantart, bastardizing it)

[Orunitier]

The real Art was this guy who had a TV show where he would interview kids and they would say the darnedest things, so no it's not.

So, Bill Cosby is real art? :P

[Crusoe the Painter]

I think you're forgetting that anime changes in response to the overall cultural arts movement. Currently, the 'in-vouge' art movement is "Super Flat", and it's creeping out into popular culture as well.

The 80s was probably the pinnacle of hand-drawn mechanical animation. Damn, the space cruisers in Project A-KO were covered in greebles, and animated. Same with Macross.

Superflat from Wikipedia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superflat

Basically, it's a pop-art treatment of anime, it's not done because it's outright 'easier', but because it's the current fad, the current artistic flavor of the country.

I don't think anime is picking up on all the social issues that superflat parodies, but the style has definitely crept into the mainstream.

A piece of artwork by murakami, one of the founders of the movement:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/3/34/Murakami%28Army_of_Mushrooms%29.jpg

Eureka 7:
http://eurekaseven.bandai-ent.com/

FLCL:
http://www.agefive.com/FLCL/html/characters.html


The simplified color choices are instantly recognizable, look at the pallete. It's flat, and the color depth/choices are what you'll see in FLCL, Eureka 7, and other modern series. Colors that tend towards pastels/tones (even darks ), simplified shading, clean simple line work.

Sometimes though, I felt the 80s-90s animation could be awfully busy and gaudy. When dealing with simplified forms, complex stark coloring is often not the best.

Also, we're talking different levels of quality ( TV vs OVA vs Movie ), and different levels of technology. Animation blacklining up until the late 90s was llargely done by photocopying them onto the animation cells for painting. Nowadays, alot of anime is digital, yielding crisper darker lines. So comparing Ranma 1/2 to Inuyasha is merely comparing technology. Takahashi's style hasn't changed in 20 years, which is sad, and neither have her plotlines.

[Chingwa]

Otaking, your idea of "classic" anime makes me feel really old....

[ArtZealot]

maybe if it's created in japan it is. even still, it all looks the same. Not original at all. theres my two cents.

[Ilaekae]

"Originally Posted by arttorney
The real Art was this guy who had a TV show where he would interview kids and they would say the darnedest things, so no it's not.

So, Bill Cosby is real art? (Orunitier)"

You're showing your age, Dude...

The Kids show was run by Art Linkletter...it's one of the great classics of early television.

[Leo_Phoenix]

Hello there nice to meet you all.
I would say that old anime looks something worth work. As I observe 'anime these days' seems like has been simplified maybe because kids like it. Most kids likes something very simple and cute rather the detailed cartoons that looks scary. This is the only reason i can think of :)
Anything you create is a form of art old or new :)

[CCorsair]

I'm not going to re-hash on what some have said but yes anime is art and so are Mangas and comic books.

Art is something we all do here but In Japan Anime is't the main art form the Manga's are .


I go way back in Anime fandom Way back I was hooked on Anime in the 60's so saying todays anime is bad... you need to go find some with a good library of old anime.


The problem is the studios don't put the funds into a productions it will come out looking very flat.. Look at the 80's version of Appleseed to the new one very different anime .

They go the 70's and look at the moive Queen of 1000 years they find and look at the TV shows.. same anime same cell in some part but shot in a low grade to cut cost.. anothre is Starblazer AKa Space Battle Ship Yamato

the Movies are great but the TV Animation is of less grade.

Today studios looking to turn out anime faster than before cut corner and we get anime that seem to be less that it could be but movie anime like Vampire Hunter D Blood Lust are very high quality plus it was much better then the first story but again that was an OVA/OAV and in the high hay day of anime in Japan.

Even when Miyazaki did some TV shows they didn't look like his work we see in his movies today and Miyazaki has only used digital work in only a few and small part of his last few movies.

I started with Black and white anime no color tv in the early 60's and I will tell you it did not matter to me i saw the color in my minds eye and animation from Japan had me hook for last 45+ years and for the last 35 I been helping get Anime here to the states and even got people that run some of the US companies into anime a long the way.

I put on show that have made gown men cry and when any Movie be it real or anime can make you feel something so deep you cry .. it is art..


I dare any one not to Cry at Grave of the fireflys or the last OVa of Video Girl I or the last eps of Gunbuster(ok the last one wasn't that great but it was moving lol)

I did show in the pst on types of anime and It is funny you ask what got an artist to make a manga or anime and they tell you come from old movies from the US and not most action movies are inspired from anime(KIll BILL) so it a full circle art inspires art..

Anime will change it has to. I will be very sad the day Miyazaki pass away but glad to have seen near everything he has made more than 100 times

(Laser Disc Rule) I don't have a large collection as i did a few years as some people made off about half to 80% of it but I do have some grea titles still and still try to find some of the older anime's.

I did some conventions and work at some for AnimEgo here on the west coast and I picked up some great titles during my time with AE and I love my re-master Macross Box set and if you have not seen it you should it is great.

American companies are buying up anime titles as we sit here typing and talking and the studios turn out tons of shows but not as they did once. and this is sad as we could be looking at a time where the anime is so bad it stops coming over....in some ways that may not be a bad thing.. anime may need to re-find its roots again and the best way is to stop the feeding frenzy that keep the bad anime from coming out in the first place ..


right now I hear that in japan Manga's are on a decline and could slow to stop coming out and most companies are looking to Korea and other country's for manga style art and animations.

Nuff said
CA

http://www.con-x-treme.com San Jose July 27-29 2007

[Orunitier]

"Originally Posted by arttorney
The real Art was this guy who had a TV show where he would interview kids and they would say the darnedest things, so no it's not.

So, Bill Cosby is real art? (Orunitier)"

You're showing your age, Dude...

The Kids show was run by Art Linkletter...it's one of the great classics of early television.

Who's showing their age now?:confident

[Ixari]

Gotta say but the examples the author of this thread gave were all the same to me.

How can you compare two artists styles and then say its 'modern' and 'old' anime?

Come back in 50 years time or so and we'l talk about 'old' anime and the evolution of a style still very much in its infancy.

[information_high]

maybe if it's created in japan it is. even still, it all looks the same. Not original at all. theres my two cents.

LOL DEM YELLOW SLANTYZ ALL LOOK DUH SAME

Uh, have you even watched anime? That's like saying all classical european painting looks the same.

Ignorance abound...

[Danzfloor Rebel]

I like the old style better too... A lot of the new ones are more plasticky... And the character designs seems to have demised... Even though I won't be gushing over the new styles, some of them still win me over their stories... Monster, GITS: SAC, Fullmetal Alchemist, One Piece (thank goodness you made the cutoff on 1999, 'cuz you would've gotten so much flak with Cowboy Bebop being made in 1998 )... Although I must say, the backgrounds in most anime (especially movies) have improved in leaps and bounds...

And while we're on the subject, anybody recommend me to blind-buy Steamboy?...

PLEASe, PLEASe, PLEASE do not purchase Steamboy. I was enticed by the shiny ads and bought it on a whim, only to discover that the animation was the only good part of it. The script is terrible... for artistic value I guess maybe, but for anything else, no.

[Liam Harvey]

i hav not seen the enormous amounts of anime you all have but i would like to agree with your argument that "old" anime is more colour detailed than the current stuff.This may be because the indutry is much larger and more competitive meaning the aniation colour has to suffer for the production and movement of the animation, or perhaps because the older animation had large clumps of scenes with less character movement( a trait i have found in most anime) and the more shades make the image still visually appealling.

[Hyskoa]

I know being a necromancer sounds cool, but threads don't have a life force, so you can't become a necromancer by reviving them. Honest.

[Ilaekae]

Is whacking a piece of Italian marble with a hammer and chisel until it-looks-sorta-like-something-maybe real art?

Is gouging a primo piece of maple with gouges, smearing it with greasy shit and pressing it on to paper real art?

Is glueing teeny pieces of broken men's room tile in different colors to your local church's ceiling real art?

Is slapping soggy plaster onto a pile of chicken screen and pipe until it-looks-sorta-like-something-maybe real art?

Is doin' a bunch of chicken scratches and notes on big sheets of smelly paper to guide somebody buildin' a fancy outhouse real art?

Is hittin' up daddy for a few grand to buy a computer then drawin' pictures on it that really don't exist real art?

Is smearing oily or plastic goop on a bed sheet with weasel hair and a stick real art?

Is deciding that this thread is a pile of useless meandering semantic nitpicking after reading the title a real art?

I dunno... I only come here for the peanuts and coffee...

[masque]

thanks, bro, i needed that. BIG smile.

[FLenG]

you think too much. just enjoy the stuffs.

[dongkyun]

i kinda like the old style because modern style looks really weak and flat to my eyes.. but then flow of the characters are much more flexible compare to old ones. There are good things and bad things i guess

[CrazyfingerS]

Bigass Image you linked with text reading:



Well there really is nothing to say if you're going to insist that those who disagree with you (on a widely acknowledged subjective topic) are "silly." Why are you even asking for others' opinions, if you cannot respect them? Discussion is fine, calling names, and a condescending attitude is not.

Hopefuly we can talk about this like mature people.

I personally view the change in art style (or in your terms 'effort'), as something akin to the phenomena found everywhere in life as time goes by. All things change with time. In fine art, when Impressionism came about, it was something very different, very simple, almost *lazy,* yet undeniably beautiful when done correctly. Of course, there are plenty of badly drawn shows today, however that does not disqualify the entire genre as a whole. Art does not always need to be detailed, and realistic. You mentioned that you would love to see Ouran Host Club drawin in a style similar to Fist of the North Star, but I simply could not imagine it. I think the simple, almost paper-cut-out art style they used suits the show much better than a serious style would. In my opinion, the styles which you're hooked on give no room for expressing the fun of shows today.

I actually agree with this jen.It is true that you absolutely cannot namecall to get your point across.You are expressing an opinion and if you can give one then you would be better served in your argument to also accept differing ones.Well played jen.

With that said,lol i comopletely agree with you tho that older anime looks vastly better then more modern anime.simplicity can be good and when executed well is so so impressive(fullmetal alchemist,naruto,etc.) but in comparison to older stuff.I mean take fist of the north star or vampire hunter d(yeah i picked popular ones,lol)i actually dont like either one,but i love the art in both.its expressive,so much less robotic then current anime.I prefer art that looks organic but as i stated at the beggining,when talking about art,everything is opinion.we could show an ink blot and get fifty different reaction to it.

Great topic and better disscussion.i wish all boards were like this.

[nfries88]

Digital/modern anime looks cleaner, and that is why some people say it looks better.
However, that is because of technological advances, not because of work on behalf of the artists, and should not be counted here (however, it is hard to neglect for someone who is only used to modern anime).

Imagine my surprise, after reading 30-some volumes of the Naruto manga while I was sick, to be sent the most beautifully drawn manga I've ever read (I don't read much manga, so this may not be as great in quality as I think it is) - Berserk, by Kentarou Miura, which was started almost 20 years ago (the first volume was released in 1990, I think?). And although the anime (a 25-episode massacre of the series, produced in 1998) wasn't the greatest quality (http://www.batrock.net/animeimages/b0.JPG), the artwork in the manga really blew me out of the water. And Miura has released about 10 chapters in the past few months, while Naruto has one released almost every week, so the argument that it can be produced much faster is probably very accurate.
(compare Naruto (http://www.duzons.com/kei/posted_pics/naruto-manga-245-p08.jpg) to Berserk (http://img115.imageshack.us/img115/797/nextavvyoj4.jpg))
I know it's just manga, but I'm sure that quality of the manga is relative (to some degree) to the quality of the anime.

Anyway, I agree that the quality of the actual artwork has dropped, but I still can't draw it to save my life, so I say it still counts as art.

[freiheit]

regarding the "modern" vs "old school" anime I have but one word; HellsinG!
Accually most of my favorite animes are recent, like Lain or which hunter robin. Miyazaki's word didn't diminish with time might I also point out.

As far as the definition of what is art, I personnaly think it requires creativity, style and technique (technique being the least and less important of the three, anyone who accually bothers trying can draw good, coming up with an orriginal concept is an other thing)..i'm sorry but something like tokyo mewmew doesn't qualefy as art for me, lol

[Rabid]

Ok I can't read every single scrap of arguement here but the fact is this, I agree that modern anime is somewhat cut down, but where 8 minute drawings arise the more excuse to animate these characters more comes into play. Being a BFA Animation major myself I can't say I enjoy anime on a personal level. Some of the stories seem to be crafted way out in left field, putting characters in predicaments or miraculous solutions that are usually never prevalent, *see desperate house wives scripts* Its very much a moving comic book, lip syncs dont translate well and are not conveyed to a massive extent to begin with. I dont mind this, I still catch a good show in anime style now and then, my problem with it is the fact that literally 60% of the freshman that come to the senior art lecture (gives us seniors a chance to teach) end up making an anime style of a nude figure with not attention to muscle tone, bone structure or lighting. *not to mention one of the freshman told me she was a vampire.....thats great dear you go have fun now:nohope: *

I believe that anything can be held as art, but just as that is true you wont get away with anything without quality and skill. As Kevin Llewellyn once said and I totally agree, "its better to create your own style and bring something new into the world than just trying to copy or imrove on another style, besides your much more valuable to employers in the industry."

[Gezstar]

look, 'anime' is just the japanese word for animation. there are a million styles and genres within japanese animation. asking 'is japanese anime real art?' is kind of like asking whether french rock is real music or... ball games played in australia are true sports.

[cryptess]

Are we talking about new anime vs. old anime, or are we talking about the insurgence of anime into western culture?

Back in the day, westerners had less access. Only the best stuff came over here. Now, there's demand, and western distribution companies are buying up as many hastily drawn little kid genre animes as possible -- cos animation is for kids, don'tcha know.

Then, even those are homogenized for the American audience. I'll never be a fan of Sailor Moon, per se, but I do know that the Japanese version had a bit more complexity and richness in the story than the western adaptation.

In short, when something gets into pop-culture, it ends up pandering to the lowest common denominator. Companies are trying to walk a tightrope between selling to 8-year-olds and selling to middle-range anime fans who want all they can get without learning Japanese and ordering overseas.

--Amee
(A middle-range anime fan herself, but with a very convenient rental source.)

[Kuraudo]

I think we're forgeting the title of the thread here, "is anime art?". I don't want to be ethnocentric about this but anime to me is not "really" art to(IMO). It's almost "lazy" art. When you look at Marko's and Wesley's work, it terribly kills anime. This tells you something, it tells you that their work and ideas went through great knowledge of anatomy, lighting, and idealization. It's something that you look at and say wow, these guys know what they're doing, rather than than "it's cheesy." But of course, perhaps i'm taking this too much from a humanism view.

But don't get me wrong, i started with anime back in the days as a style. But now that i've seen the amazing work of art here on CA and CG Society, i want to change the way i think. I don't even consider Miyazaki movies anime, becuase they're so good.....Seriously, i don't even know...it all comes down to "everyone has their own style and everyone has to be subjective about it." It just a matter of if you like like drawing big boob girls with big eyes or something that actually takes knowledge to produce....or simply put, you're either a humanist, or a what chu ma call it that likes all sorts of wired stuff considered art.

[Tsumami]

Oh man... and I tried to read all the arguments, but I've seen this in other places that it gives me a headache. So, I'll just say whatever (weak-newbie) view I have. -_-;

Anime as art? Then, is it right to also say that Disney, Don Bluth and Pixar's works are 'not art' also?
Think about how people usually say, 'animation is the lowest form of art,' yet it can be due to the fact A LOT of artists are working on it. You have background artists designing the background, character designers creating the characters, etc... In a way, it's really not 'one' artist that is working on an animation but MANY as a team. Same thing with video games, people can SAY that it's 'not art' but again, it's the same application as animation itself.

I'm not sure if you know this, but when Tezuka Osamu first started the 'anime wave,' he was influenced by Disney. And his resulted style was childish and SIMPLE. Not at all extravagant like the examples shown there. The later ones were basically where the branches grew from Tezuka's and other 'artists' influences. Heck, you can say the before the West ever was interested in 'anime,' the Japanese were interested in American Comics. :/

Another thing is, most of the 'mainstream' animation (that is 'simple') came from the popularity of the comics themselves. Basically, when a comic is popular by readers, then the animation companies take the opportunity to take it further. I mean, who wouldn't want to see their favorite comic come alive? (Well, by the look of how Hollywood is doing too many adaptions.... ).

Also, I kind of noticed that the examples listed, those are 'OAV' (Original Animation Video) and that type of productions tend to have a (bit) of a 'better' budget back then, because they don't aim at a wide audience. Lodoss War (I love that anime) and Battle Angel were BOTH OAV, so were Bubblegum Crisis and Plastic Little. Basically, back then, they made those 'OAV' as a target to the mature audiences. And cater to the popularity. It's ironic, because Battle Angel was from a comic, and Lodoss War was actually based on a series of RPG novels (go look at an illustration book called 'ATAM' by Yutaka Izubuchi and you'll see some style similarities). There's where the original sources came from. Now, OAVs seem to be dying, and fallen with the 'simplistic' style. Why simplicity? Maybe the Budget (in Japan, their animation uses about 8-12 frames, not the 24-frame western standards), usage of computers, Western influences (hey, take a look at THEIR animation back then!) and 'going back to the past' ala how Tezuka Osamu use to draw them, I'm not sure. Plus, most of the animation (styles) seen on TV is geared towards elementary school to high school students.

Also, I've seen way simple-styled anime when I was young, mostly in the girls-genre. Himitsu no Akko-chan? Witch Girl Sally? And, seen some months ago, the RETRO-version of Cutey Honey. Those were pretty simplistic in style.
If you want 'high-end' details, better off reading the comics themselves like Monster, Team Medical Dragon, and other 'adult and mature reader' titles that Japan runs. It's actually rare for any of the good 'detailed' stuff to be made into a TV animation or an OAV nowadays. :/

Now, on the topic of 'is anime real art'? Again, would the same question be asked on Video Games and 'western' animation?

(And, apologies if my post doesn't make sense or is crap. My brain seems to be tired or something today, so correct me or something if needed. ><; )

[Saturns Gate]

Quite the interesting read I have to say. Im afraid old anime rules with me too, but again like its been said in many many posts before this its all subjective and what I believe is the case most of the time with what you grew up with. Ninja Scroll ranks as my all time fav for animation and just plain coolness factor..that and streetfighter. I agree a lot of new anime doesont have half the effort put into the artwork as they used to but not ALL!

Just because I like ninja scroll compared with new anime dont mean to say you have to...theres that word again. SUBJECTIVE! So quit trying to prove a point.

Sean

[evamonkeyn2]

Is anime art? HELL YEAH

anyone who has seen ghost in the shell, made in 95 and questions production values need to watch it again.

As for variety in production values, back then, as today, you have different animation groups and different budgets. Naruto and death note are great examples of this, where sometimes the animation is pretty bad, but other times its spectacular. So, its clearly not a lack of skill, its a lack of funds.

Flcl was made in 2000 and is without a shadow of a doubt to me an artists anime. The rendering style changes depending on the shot, and it has some fantastically fluid scenes of animation. It was something gainax did more or less to explore what could be done. Pretty surreal.

You will always have job anime and anime done to a low budget , and you will always have high budget or art pieces.

If you have lost faith in anime, id say watch gits sac 2nd gig or ergo proxy maybe. Those stand out as high points for me in visual style.

just my opinion though.

[Longxiang]

Every movement in art, music, fashion, literature, etc. begins with a few brilliant pioneers. Over time, if it becomes popular, the bulk of it becomes repetitive, derivative, self-referential, calcified, and crummy. That's just how things go.

Fantasy Lit: Tolkein- brilliant. Wheel of Time- crap.
Hip Hop: Grandmaster Flash- brilliant. Brittany Spears- crap
Anime: Katsuhiro Otomo- brilliant. YuGiOh- crap.

I personally got into Anime in the mid 1980's, but got out of it about 5 years later. Even the artists that I liked started turning out real garbage. Today if anyone asks me if I like anime I tell them "no."

What we see outside Japan is heavily influenced by marketing, too. Only the most popular (that is, the most overproduced) stuff makes it outside the country, with few exceptions. What we have available now is literally the Paris Hilton of anime.

Also it's worth noting that most anime series are based on popular Manga series. The original artist rarely has anything to do with the anime's production. Instead its produced factory-like with the tweening sent out to other countries. Quality is bound to suffer when that happens.

My favorite artist in the 80's was Takahashi Rumiko, author of Urusei Yatsura, Ranma 1/2, and Inu Yasha. Her artwork is tight, and her stories were great up until the first half of the Ranma series (talking about the books here) after that, pressure or fame got to her and her stuff became a ton more violent (there was a horror comic craze in Japan about 5 years ago.) Inu Yasha was pure dreck.
Also if you've ever seen the animated versions of any of the titles I listed (done by Kitty, no input from Rumiko herself) they are also serious crap.

Does that mean there is nothing new, innovative, or exciting in the Japanese cartoon world? Far from it! The good stuff, like most good stuff, is hard to find though, especially outside Japan.

There are two that come immediately to mind that are new-ish, and still good quality.　　Bambi Alternative and Osen. Both are friggin incredible, neither have been made into animated series for wide international release.

Edit:
Oh hey, I guess Bambi Alternative isn't as unknown as I thought!
http://www.junkmagnet.com/kanekoatsushi.html

[Longxiang]

Are you seriously telling me that one of the previous Rumiko's adaptation , the tv serie Ranma 1/2 really looks better while inuyasha looks badly colorized ?
http://www.geocities.com/Tokyo/Gulf/4458/ranorangeshirt.jpghttp://img.hebus.com/2004/12/18/041218194048_80.jpg


That looks absolutely magestic compared to what Kitty was doing in the 80's (see below)

This absolutely is not art, because it was not done by an artist. It was copied, poorly. Exactly zero love and very little effort went into making it.

[Mirana]

Bambi is well-drawn and it's storytelling is not as popularized, but I can't say it's one of my favorites. I think the creator is trying so hard to make the main character different that it's hard to retain anything "likable" about her or her quest.

I also can't agree that Ranma is one of the best comics out there (even for its time). It was VERY formulamic. It repeated so much within itself that you could get the entire jist of the vast series in the first couple GNs.

I do agree that most anime lacks a serious amount of quality (artistic and writing). Unfortunately, most people watch more than they read...the comics these shows are based on are SO much better!

[Longxiang]

Bambi is well-drawn and it's storytelling is not as popularized, but I can't say it's one of my favorites. I think the creator is trying so hard to make the main character different that it's hard to retain anything "likable" about her or her quest.


I like the artwork and the trippy storylines. I hadn't thought about the character. Now that I think about it, does she even talk? I don't think she does.

There's one episode where the whole thing takes place inside a bystanders head. 10 pages or so of the character's thoughts that all happen in the split second before he gets shot. It remains one of my favorites.



I also can't agree that Ranma is one of the best comics out there (even for its time). It was VERY formulamic. It repeated so much within itself that you could get the entire jist of the vast series in the first couple GNs.


It started being formulaic around book 10. (Oh no new stupid thing from China that changes into some weird animal kicks Ranmas ass and falls in love with his girl form, can Ranma learn some new kung fu to defeat it, or can he save the day by rubbing his boobs in its face?)

Before that it was fresh and original. The story in book 7 about the French people with the 20-foot long tongues still kicks my ass. God that was good stuff.

Urusei Yatsura, the series before that, was ALWAYS fresh and original, except for the OVA's.

[Mirana]

I've read "Bambi and Her Pink Gun" which is a different title (but same creator) from "Bambi Alternative" (which is not here in the US, as far as I know). She does speak in it.

Never had an interest in Urusei Yatsura in any format, so I can't comment on it's originality.

[Costau D]

I think we're forgeting the title of the thread here, "is anime art?". I don't want to be ethnocentric about this but anime to me is not "really" art to(IMO). It's almost "lazy" art. When you look at Marko's and Wesley's work, it terribly kills anime. This tells you something, it tells you that their work and ideas went through great knowledge of anatomy, lighting, and idealization. It's something that you look at and say wow, these guys know what they're doing, rather than than "it's cheesy." But of course, perhaps i'm taking this too much from a humanism view.

But don't get me wrong, i started with anime back in the days as a style. But now that i've seen the amazing work of art here on CA and CG Society, i want to change the way i think. I don't even consider Miyazaki movies anime, becuase they're so good.....Seriously, i don't even know...it all comes down to "everyone has their own style and everyone has to be subjective about it." It just a matter of if you like like drawing big boob girls with big eyes or something that actually takes knowledge to produce....or simply put, you're either a humanist, or a what chu ma call it that likes all sorts of wired stuff considered art.


Comparing Markos work to anime is not really fair. He is not an animator, and the reason anime is more basic (more complex compared to animated shows here) is because they need to make it move. Using complex shading per frame, will be very very difficult and cost lots of money and time. What i find interesting about anime (or any animation in general) is how creative many of the shows can be with such simple characters and a limited amount of time and money. Japanese animators are the king of limited animation, and making it work. And hell, even manga artists are crazy. Some manga that comes here is very well done, such as blade of the immortal. Manga Kas are the king of speed, and telling a story.

[Mirana]

Hmm, I don't think the artist of Blade is as quick as some of his contemporaries--totally different style, afterall. Otherwise, I sympathize. A lot of kids want to be mangaka, but they have no idea what a lack of a life you have when deadlines are so quick.

[Sirio_Brozzi]

This thread is UNDYING.

[seba_boi]

My goodness... You guys are still talking about this?...

[Longxiang]

My goodness... You guys are still talking about this?...


Goddamn artist. Blah blah blah always talking about art.


:teeth:

[Nexus]

Anime is interesting as a style. I will give it that. But its just a style. There are some versions that are good and some that are absolutely wretched. You could say the same thing about comic book styles. Some are spectacular to behold and some you can tell were simplified to meet deadline. So in the end, is anime art? Well art has never been defined clearly, so its hard to say. Let's make the question more specific. Is anime good art? Well it goes back to what I already said. Some is better than others and its fairly obvious when it is. Sometimes an anime show or a manga can be carried by storyline but the style is lacking. Sometimes the linework and color can be magnificent but the story is absolutely horrid. Its the same with any artistic style and it really is a matter of opinion. I think some Cubist works are extremely beautiful but I think some of it is complete shit. So is anime real art? In terms of it being classified as fine art, probably not for a long time. You wont see stills from Gundam in a major metropolitan art museum anytime soon. But at one point Pop art featured pieces that were large reproductions of 50's comic books, so who knows. So in the end I guess there isnt an answer. But I caution anyone who thinks that anime is the "only" art worth drawing inspiration from. I see dozens of kids every day who cant draw the human figure to save their life because all they've ever worked from is anime. Anime hugely distorts the true human figure for stylistic purposes but if you are learning to draw from it then youre in fucking trouble. I beseech you young artists. LEARN YOUR ANATOMY DAMMIT....PICK UP A REAL ANATOMY BOOK AND LEARN THE BODY. Do not copy Naruto and think you can draw the human form, you are sadly mistaken.

[Justin.]

This argument is so ridiculous. I wish we could all be content.

I would submit something relevant to the argument but I just can't decide what argument to pick up, and which of the thousand obvious points there are to use... bottom line, as has been said by every person in favor of this thread sinking to CA's murky depths, "ART IS SUBJECTIVE." Personally I hate to call some things art, but you all gotta know, it's important sometimes to keep an open mind and a closed mouth... though it's very tough sometimes for the latter, in the long run it will serve you well.

[evidence]

i havent read this whole argument, but if some people around here consider the world of warcraft art than i dont know how anime is falling below your standards.
anyway, im not a big anime fan but i came across this mindblowing trailer thats worth checking out..
http://www.apple.com/trailers/sony/paprika/trailer/

[Momus]

i havent read this whole argument, but if some people around here consider the world of warcraft art than i dont know how anime is falling below your standards.
anyway, im not a big anime fan but i came across this mindblowing trailer thats worth checking out..
http://www.apple.com/trailers/sony/paprika/trailer/

This topic is way clich&#233;, BUT:

Satoshi Kon is an artist. Paranoia Agent was superflat social commentary. It is art to me. Therefore, I am looking forward to Paprika.

[Arshes Nei]

As webmistress of a very large anime database, of course anime is an art. Just like everything else 90% of everything is crap, not to mention people's definition of crap varies.

Also, Satoshi Kon is one of my favorites. He produces very quality work. I loved all the movies he had a hand in. Memories was one of the first Artsy anime films I laid my eyes on and it was beautiful. The various styles were unique and didn't make you think of the generic styles of anime.

Manga is very diverse. I mean there is manga for about everyone. You are a Japanese Salaryman? There are manga about Japanese Salarymen. Cooking, sports...the list doesn't end.

I know people hate it because of the various stereotypes, and let's also face it, the more you import foreign entertainment, the less people in the States can make money off of entertainment because of limitations in shelf space. However, look at the list of superhero comics that seem to also play the same US stereotypes. We know there are comics we know and love, and still HAVEN'T ENDED. At least with manga, there is a point when the stories do end, and especially progress and age. It's one of the differences I actually appreciate in manga/anime versus American animation and comics.

I still like my junk and filler anime, hell I have a thing for Hagiwara's Bastard because even though the story has gone to hell, the guy sure draws some sexy thick ladies (even with anime proportions). And no, I'm not gay. I just like seeing variety of the female form in anime instead of rail thin chicks with boobs. I love his costume designs. I also love Berserk, that's one of the most hardcore and crazy stories I've read in a while.

While I have a style influenced by it, I keep it in perspective with the business and understand it's a trend too. I love my realistic artwork too and American art. I will continue to enjoy the influences of many kinds of art.

[ArtZealot]

I personally don't like anime, i'm pretty adamant about not liking it. It's art, but it's a style. I'm not an anime historian, but i'm sure that it all stems from one or two artists. Why not create your own style, instead of doing an off-shoot of someone else's style? theres my two cents.

[Joshua Fountain]

I like Japanese styled Anime as an offshoot style of the original animation styles being worked on in the early history of the medium.

It's a subroot of a subroot of the main root of animation.

I enjoy the different ways humans are portrayed. I don't necessarily like too much of it though as the way humans are rendered almost make them look ghastly and most unpalatable to the eyes.

I hate anime as a style that almost all of the kids in high school are trying to learn, feeling that it will make them true artists as that's what they look up to.

It's just like all these bands trying to copy the Beatles' sound and style during that British invasion period of music history. Except it's a Japanese invasion of a lesser sort. Eventually, people will get tired of it (hopefully) and learn from it, use it as a reference guide, and progress with their own styles more or less based on it. Just like music, it should evolve... but it's not right now.

[uberninja]

yeah, i guess its art but it doesn't make it good art. the quality of the art usually corroborates with the show/book's quality. worth anime/manga are hard to come by these days, but here are a few artists to spark your interest.

hiroaki samura-blade of the immortal
shirow masamune-ghost in the shell, patlabor
hayao miyazaki- nausicca valley of the wind, mononoke hime

[rustikof]

ART IS DEAD!!!!!!!!!!!!


(discuss)

[Arshes Nei]

I personally don't like anime, i'm pretty adamant about not liking it. It's art, but it's a style. I'm not an anime historian, but i'm sure that it all stems from one or two artists. Why not create your own style, instead of doing an off-shoot of someone else's style? theres my two cents.

Well, anime is short for animation, though we refer to anime as animation from Japan. There is a lot of different styles actually and there are quite a few that are more realistic than the offshoot Disney Style that we know of as Anime.

Think about Hajime Sorayama,

http://www.sorayama.net/

Incredibly realistic artwork, though it was mainly erotica. He has involved himself in some manga covers and other illustrations.

[boukun]

Art is intrepretation, the style is their personal interpretation. The whole thing is a mix of Diseny styling mixed with old school wood cuts. Also the detail does call for longer production times.

looking at the manga these anime stem from you can see personal style in the works, it's just that recently manga and subsequently anime, has seen such a rabid demand that even unskilled artists have become overnight stars.

Looking at this site you can see the different skill levels in manga artists who contribute to anime by looking at their interpretations of one piece of work

Artists draw DragonBall (http://www.daizex.com/multimedia/images/artists/index.shtml)

And as far as needing skills in realism, that probably comes from those who emulate the style from seeing it on TV, A lot of Anime/Manga artist have traditional backgrounds.

Realistic Naruto. (http://groups.msn.com/NarutoMangaReturns/rvolume3.msnw?action=ShowPhoto&PhotoID=30606)

[Katfayheirti]

OMG this thread is still alive!? WHY?! WHY?! WHY?! WHY?! :lens: :spam: :lens:

[Shadowwing]

Will this ever die????????????????????????????????????

[uberninja]

this is blasphemy!
this is madness!!!

[Beelow]

LOL! you guys crack me up! Should I say something or should i just let it go?

Personally I am not really impressed with manga type art. I usually pass those up . I will go to a Leyendecker painting and gawk at it. I think manga is not as polished as what some the guys here are posting. There are some animes that have really impressive backgrounds and animation. I like Steamboy and Miyazaki movies like Castle in the Sky and Spirited Away. I think those are impressively done. I think those fall along the anime things right? But, there are others that are not as impressive and I just don't really care for.

I think I just wasted my time, eh?

[Coinpurse]

I'm not really a fan of manga. But Alien makes weird things happen to my face whenever he posts, and his work is very anime influenced, if not an amazing form of anime in itself. Yes I consider it an art, However, Its not my cup of tea.

[Daunt]

Hah, I am so late coming into this topic but I wanted to point out...why are you talking about anime and not showing animation clips? That IS what animation is about right?

It's all well and good to show 80's freeze frames to modern freeze frames but what does that do? Just shows that the 80's focus was on pretty freeze frames. :/ Whereas the new animation focuses on smooth motion and better direction/storyboarding. Not -always- of course, there are tons of crappy tv shows out there but some of the new ones that look 'simple' actually have a lot more FPS and time spent on getting the motions attractive & smooth.

A good story doesn't need 80's glam & shine to make it awesome. ;) (mind you, I am old school. Gunbuster FTW)

If you want to talk about stylized art fashioned after japanese comics then lets talk manga. Not anime.

Anyways. I just wanted to say it's totally a half-assed conversation if you're going to talk about a MOVING art form and not show it moving...ya know?

[2100]

There are anime courses in my art school. I'm afraid to tell you folks that anime is indeed art.

[ArtZealot]

Well, anime is short for animation, though we refer to anime as animation from Japan. There is a lot of different styles actually and there are quite a few that are more realistic than the offshoot Disney Style that we know of as Anime.

Think about Hajime Sorayama,

http://www.sorayama.net/

Incredibly realistic artwork, though it was mainly erotica. He has involved himself in some manga covers and other illustrations.


Okay, now that i look back on what i said, there is different unique styles within it that are good. I see so much crappy anime at my school though, that i just get sick of it. The more artsy side of anime can be good, like this guy: http://artgerm.deviantart.com/. I'm not a fan of the more cartoony stuff i guess. a lot of people draw anime and ignore the foundation art skills and thats the shit i dont like to see.

[Arshes Nei]

Okay, now that i look back on what i said, there is different unique styles within it that are good. I see so much crappy anime at my school though, that i just get sick of it. The more artsy side of anime can be good, like this guy: http://artgerm.deviantart.com/. I'm not a fan of the more cartoony stuff i guess. a lot of people draw anime and ignore the foundation art skills and thats the shit i dont like to see.

Oh no I agree with you, anime over here in our culture is more of a trend than actual understanding of Japanese culture.

The problem is that the internet has changed a lot of perspective of art. Everyone and their mother wants to be an artist and I understand people want to do this for hobby and don't want to improve, but their attitude is like "Well I'm doing a service for you" umm ok.

It's like me thinking that just because I can play basketball, that I should be in the (W)NBA. Not everyone is going to make it, and I don't understand the backpatting and stuff in art that makes us think we need to cater to ego instead of saying "Well I just don't like it"

When we hate a movie we are adamant about it, I don't understand why people think that if someone doesn't like art or a certain kind of artwork it's not the same thing. Money isn't my driving point of taste.

Now saying that, I just understand that anime is very diverse. It's just sad that people don't understand the diversity and start emulating styles more than understanding the basics.

[Leukeh]

I recently went and saw a Tezuka exhibition at the Art Gallery of New South Whales... you'd assume that to have an exhibition in an art gallery on a famous manga artist (if you didn't know... he created Astro Boy, among other things) it'd have to be art.

Then again, try to define what art is. If you put any sort of restrictions as to what it can be, someone is going to challenge it. That's what post-modernism is all about...

[Beelow]

Hyung Tae Kim, LeSean Thomas(creative director of Boondocks cartoon, I think, and he can do some really good life drawing) and Skan Srisuwan(his work has been accepted into spectrum not to long ago, he told me) are hot anime guys.

Skans work- http://forums.cgsociety.org/showthread.php?f=137&t=241730

LeSean- He got some of his life drawing here. Shuts up anyone about the anime and realism thing, dude studies and loves doing what he does, anime- http://leseanthomas.blogspot.com/2007_01_01_archive.html

Hyung Tae Kim- I am pretty sure you guys know about this dude- http://hyung-taekim.org/index.php?cat=9

Should have posted these a while ago.

[Mirana]

Huh. I never considered LeSean's work very "anime" (although I hadn't seen any of his new stuff since ARKANIUM), so much as "animation" in general...but I guess I could see it in his current work.

[yinteck]

The modern anime looks sharper than the old anime. Only thing for the old anime is the drawing is more detail.
Ah... anyway i like both. This is a very subjective question.:blahblah:

[Bad Luck]

I've had this argument as well and yes I'm sick of it too.. most of the time the haters are talking as if moe is the be all and end all of manga art and put their hands over their ears or just flat out tell you you're full of it when show them any non-moe manga.

However... a couple months ago I applied to an art and game design program at the Art Institute of California and they wanted a nice portfolio.. about 20 pieces or so. At the top of the Portfolio submission form it read:

"No anime submissions."

Discuss.

[idoru]

Guh. I would just like to say that I am so tired of the elitism and ridiculousness of the art community in general. Yes, anime and/or manga-style art has some basic similarities (kind of sort of when you get into manga--that's just literally the Japanese word for comics, as anime is the japanese (AND FRENCH) word for animation).

You know what else is similar? Sonnets. Gee. Hmm. No one sits around asking if sonnets are literature. Because everyone can accept that writing has rules, but no one can accept that artistic styles can. What a bunch of shit.

I am influenced by manga. *gasp!* I must be a worthless, bandwagon-jumping human being who could never do anything with myself, ever! God forbid I don't set out to change the face of the world, all I want to do is tell stories in a way I find visually appealling! What do you mean there are variations? You must be lying to me because I don't know enough about it to tell Ai Yazawa from Junko Mizuno from that guy who does BLAME!. I don't like it because of highschool kids, so I don't want to think that there might be good and bad involved in something popular and diverse. I'm going back to drawing my teapots now.

I'm just so disgusted with the blatant, ridiculous elitism involved in many (not all, thank GOD) "traditional" or "realist" artists. No one gets on anyone's goddamn case for doing animation in a vaguely Kim Possible-esque style, do they? Of course not, that's not popular so therefor it must be more valid.

Excuse me while I vomit all over my shoes. (And excuse the venom, this has been getting under my skin for the last year or so.)

[tomwaits4noman]

I think the general view of anime as just pokemon and digimon and Yui-oh the tv stuff as this is what they are exposed to.

of course it is art, is it high art well no.

As with any movment there is good examples and then bad examples.

It's like horror films there are a handful of classics and the rest are awful.

same with anime, I am no expert on anime
I like animation and anime is the only one exploring adult themes good i would love to see an R or 15 rated disney film, enough of the singing rabbits... the last good American animated mainstream film was the incredibles and then the iron Giant before that - good films with depth but still kid friendly. Thank god for Brad Bird.

As for anime

Akira and Ghost in the shell 1 and 2 were visually stunning and storylines were quite strong. And not a wide eyed hyper yellow rat sorry pikacu to be seen.

though on the kid friendly side spirted away was worth watching.

[idoru]

Actually, Tomwaits4noman, in as far as anime being the only animation that explores adult themes--it really isn't. Not even at all. It's just that because animation became such an integral part of Japanese pop culture, it's more respected as a form of expression than it is here in the western world. Try Don Hertzfeldt (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Don_Hertzfeldt)'s work (some may remember him from "Rejected", though he did The Meaning of Life which wasn't comedic at all and was just quite wonderful).

I honestly don't think anime has any more or less inherent value than any other animation from any other country. There's just a lot more of it, because of its place in modern Japanese culture. Japan has always been a very visual part of the world, so it really does make sense that such a rich animation life would have grown out of that place.

There's some animation that's made only for entertainment, like Naruto or Ranma or Kimagure Orange Road, and there's some that isn't, like the recent Satoshi Kon film Paprika, or Mind Game, Princess Mononoke, Metropolis, Neon Genesis Evangelion or Serial Experiments Lain. Some are meant to be one or the other but they get muddled somewhere along the way and they fail.

[Farvus]

Thanks for the links Beelow. I was searching for that Skans' art but it was hopeless beacause I couldn't even rememer his name :).

Sorry for small offtopic. Here's my opinion :)

I like the colours in modern manga (shown in the first post) beacause characters blend very well into the environment. It allows for more variety of moods just like in some movie recorded with camera.

EDIT: Oh. And for those who don't like classic manga look but something realistic. "Ergo Proxy" has quite realistic visual style. No big eyes :)

http://www.animes-folie.com/images/screens/ergo_proxy01/vlcsnap-390743.jpg

Or maybe Koji Morimoto's "Beyond" from Animatrix.
http://img.stern.de/_content/50/74/507476/beyond1_400_400.jpg

[beejazz]

Saying that comparing the old and new styles is useless is a flawed argument, and I can prove why. I never claimed that modern anime wasn't art. It is: just bad art, in my opinion. People claim that perception of art is based on the individual, and that art cannot be judged, but I firmly believe that you can measure the quality of anime artwork quite easily using actual, tangible criteria. For instance:

Line quailty and detail of linework, number of tones used in shading, placement of those tones on the artwork itself, the colour choices used in the shading, and detail of character/mechanical/background design.
Okay... so... hellboy sucks? Low res is not bad if coupled with other techniques, like varied line weights, high contrast, etc. Remember FLCL? Remember how the entire animation style changed between scenes? Remember how remarkably unshaded most of those styles were and how awesome they were anyway? Violent scenes where the characters' outlines got scribble, people moving impossible ways as if they didn't have bones. Repeated decapitation. All intentional. All completely unrealistic. All awesome anyway.



Probably the main factor in modern anime's unappealing look is the way the characters are drawn, though. Just compare any modern show to an 80s one, and they hardly look like the same country has produced them both. In general, anime character art has devolved to the point where characters have lost most of the distintive detail of the eyes and mouth... hairstyles, too. All of the things which people thought of as 'anime' characteristics... big eyes, small mouths, multicoloured hair... it's all become an incredibly simplified, minimalistic art style. Anime girls didn't use to have lips... nowadays, an anime girl can't be considered 'sexy' without having massive, pocking Angelina Jolie lips plastered to her face. No shading, of course. See Paradise Kiss or the sex symbol Okoi from Basilisk, for instance. The sheer characteristic detail of anime eyes seen in titles like Dragon Half, Battle Angel Alita, Lodoss War and the OVA Shadow Skill have been completely lost - replaced by a couple of lines and a circle. This, again, can be measured physically. Simply take a screenshot from a modern anime like Paradise Kiss or Paranoia Agent, and one from an old show, such as Dragon Half or Gundam 0083. The difference should be immediately apparent, but to take the test a step further, try and reproduce the still yourself on a piece of paper. If you time yourself, nine times out if ten every artist will find that it takes longer and requires more concentration to replicate the face from the old show. The reason for this is simple - there are less lines in modern anime. Less detail, less linework, and minimalistic flair.
Okay, other stuff I can see and nod along with, but character design? The main character in Ninja Scroll had a ridiculously pointy chin and a silly mullet. And in Paranoia Agent? We've got real people looking (and here I refer to dress, haircuts, etc) like real people. And they still do look different enough to differentiate between them, so don't start with any of that "individual" crap. A thing doesn't have to be pointlessly ornate to be good.

"Multicolored haircuts..." ugh.


So, it's apparent from those comparitive criteria that modern anime is inferior, artwork-wise, to classic shows from the 80s to mid 90s. Even Cowboy bebop, one of the greatest anime ever in most critics' opinion (and mine too) was starting to look a little rough around the edges in terms of shading and character detail. It was made in 1998, and Escaflowne, a couople of years earlier, looked stunning in every crieria listed above.
Okay... I was under the impression that Cowboy Bebop was, like Paranoia Agent, intentionally downplayed. Cartoons aren't just the pictures... there's also a story to consider. Not everything needs the same level or same kinds of detail.

However, that's not especially hard considering all of these examples are motion captured (even I have pulled off some stunning-looking fluid animation for Studio Trophis, merely by drawing over video footage of myself). 'Classic' anime was animated by hand, from the artist's brain. Nowadays, it's easy to take a shot of someone kicking someone else and simply trace. And trace is exactly what Naruto and others do... surely you've noticed how their proportions change drastically in the nice-looking action sequences? They suddely change from being anime proportiones, to having stumpy, real-life sized legs and arms. Either that, or they don't bother to draw at all, and just use cheap CG for the action sequences, as with much of Samurai 7 and indeed all of Macross Zero.
So not using the tools available to you makes you a better artist? I'm having trouble seeing where you're going with this one.


All that said, there is an abundance of truly dull anime out there. I hardly see it as a new phenomenon, and it isn't going to go away. Best one can hope for is that it doesn't continue for another season.

[Joshua Fountain]

EDIT: Oh. And for those who don't like classic manga look but something realistic. "Ergo Proxy" has quite realistic visual style. No big eyes :)


Interesting. Thanks for the information. I enjoy broadening my horizons :-)

[cmoreland]

The first and only Anime I've ever watched was Berserk. Wow, the storyline blew me away...that is until the 6th disc...man I was dissapointed..but at least there was an ending :-\

The art in Berserk was very cool I thought, I wish the animation was smoother though. I've seen parts of the Appleseed movie...the CG and animation combo works really well....REALLY well. Eye candy anyone?

I do think Anime is art, some of it is distasteful as with anything but hey, you find the diamonds in the rough and you have yourself some very nice works to gander. I think it's kindof pointless to argue the detailed Anime vs. the quick Pokemon style because it's really just the artists preference. Take Zelda - Wind Waker for example, MAN that was fun to look at...but take the new Twighlight Princess, just as nice just a different style!

[Orunitier]

This stupid thread isn't even about "anime being real art". For one, it was created by a guy that does manga. And two, this whole thing has been about anime from the 70's and 80's compared to that of the 90's/00's.

[Justin.]

Guh. I would just like to say that I am so tired of the elitism and ridiculousness of the art community in general.

Oh dear lord the irony is killing killing killing me. You talk about elitism but then have the testicles to say something like "I'm going back to drawing my teapots now"? Are you even aware of the purpose behind "drawing teapots"?

Story time;
I had a friend in 9th grade (he was in 12th though) who liked to draw anime. I had found this site and was trying to help him. I kept telling him he should draw from life more (I never said "stop drawing anime."). He never did, he would insist "I don't want to be a Museum Artist like you, I want to be a Manga-ka."
He was severly misinformed, but above all he refused to listen. He had the same mindset about 'realistic' or 'western' drawing and painting, that it was all about museums and galleries and teapots.

So don't preach about elitism if you aren't even tolerant of other artists and styles yourself.

[Costau D]

Bam!!

[cmoreland]

If the thread is pointless why are you bumping it? :-p

[Haymaker]

Oh dear lord the irony is killing killing killing me. You talk about elitism but then have the testicles to say something like "I'm going back to drawing my teapots now"? Are you even aware of the purpose behind "drawing teapots"?

Story time;
I had a friend in 9th grade (he was in 12th though) who liked to draw anime. I had found this site and was trying to help him. I kept telling him he should draw from life more (I never said "stop drawing anime."). He never did, he would insist "I don't want to be a Museum Artist like you, I want to be a Manga-ka."
He was severly misinformed, but above all he refused to listen. He had the same mindset about 'realistic' or 'western' drawing and painting, that it was all about museums and galleries and teapots.

So don't preach about elitism if you aren't even tolerant of other artists and styles yourself.

Reminded me of how I was a year ago. Till I visted Conceptart and read that magical Quote: "Start learning anatomy! Almost every form of drawn art starts with a more or less realistic anatomy."

and that was SO true. even the most simplified character is drawn with the idea that it really could 'live'. Since that day, my art improved radically. Anime can be cool, but its always a stylized imitation of the real thing.

[idoru]

I DO do those things, I'm just tired of getting those stares, followed by the frown, followed by "And what show is THIS from?"


I'm just so disgusted with the blatant, ridiculous elitism involved in many (not all, thank GOD) "traditional" or "realist" artists.


I didn't say it applies to everyone, and like I said at the end of that post, I was in a bad, bad place.

[Arshes Nei]

The first and only Anime I've ever watched was Berserk. Wow, the storyline blew me away...that is until the 6th disc...man I was dissapointed..but at least there was an ending :-\


Manga is much better, what you watched was the Golden Age arc of Berserk.

Berserk is truly a hardcore manga in the themes it deals with at times.

The Appleseed CG movie was really interesting too.

Karas is a movie I enjoy watching over and over because one of the things I had issues with during CG is that the movements seemed lagged. In Karas sometimes the lighting effects are overkill but I was really impressed with the movements.

Final Fantasy Advent Children failed in that aspect because they worked so hard to make the characters realistic, when they had them doing unrealistic moves it looked really bad. Compare that to Disney's Incredibles where the designs were intentionally stylized but the movements had more realism to them that didn't take away from the story.

[AuDio_ViSion]

I actually prefer the "modern anime" style as opposed to the older stuff, too much shading and all that makes it look like a cruddy movie

But to the "is it art" thing, I would think that it is, considering it's a drawing style and animation and all that

[Earendil]

Final Fantasy Advent Children failed in that aspect because they worked so hard to make the characters realistic, when they had them doing unrealistic moves it looked really bad. Compare that to Disney's Incredibles where the designs were intentionally stylized but the movements had more realism to them that didn't take away from the story.

The realism conflicted with the lack of facial expression for many of the characters. I stand by that The Incredibles had much better facial expressivity than FFVII:AC by a longshot, despite the beautiful subsurface scattering. ;)

In regards to the first posts comparisons, I'd wager that while modern shows have fewer cels, there are more frames drawn and smoother animation.

Have you seen the GITS 2nd Season? It's beautiful.

[Joshua Fountain]

Is this berserk you keep talking about the same thing as what the Dreamcast game, Sword of the Berserk, was based on?

That game rocks my socks off!

Favorite quote after the hardest boss in any videogame:

"I'M STILL ALIVE!"

[Arshes Nei]

Is this berserk you keep talking about the same thing as what the Dreamcast game, Sword of the Berserk, was based on?

That game rocks my socks off!

Favorite quote after the hardest boss in any videogame:

"I'M STILL ALIVE!"

Yes, actually it is. Ironically the Dreamcast game was the whole reason I decided to find out more about the anime and manga. I was like "WHOA HOLY SHIT, THERE IS SOME AWESOME STORY HERE" The controls drove me crazy from time to time, but the story made the game.

One of the things I do like about anime, are the sculpts, figures that come from it. I've always wanted to try to make a 3d sculpt of my character just to market it (well I just want to market my character as a character good). I just like how they come up the details they do for their resin kits.

See for Berserk, http://www.art-of-war.co.jp/english/items/list.php?gid=1

Look up Slan and Guts, http://www.art-of-war.co.jp/english/items/photos.php?gid=154

one of my favorite sculpts I've seen from that series. I also love the costume design of Skull Knight.

I always liked my mix of horror and fantasy, and that's one of the reasons I liked anime when I was looking for various stories based on those genres. There is a lot of crap out there, but I can say that for the US market or any other market too.

[SenseofTouch]

Each frame of anime back then looked like a pieces of beautiful artwork that could be hung on a wall, but those were mostly movies, not series. Take Naruto for example, if they were to spend all that time putting in the details, then they'd probably still be under episode 100.

[Charkk]

I think that anime is not really all that a challenge to draw. I agree, the old stuff was alot more detailed with color and shading, but nowadays its just solid colors with no shading or anything. I dont think anime isnt great art.

[idoru]

Not everything "back then" looked like what's been mentioned. The enormously successful Kimagure Orange Road, ANYTHING Takahashi has ever had her hand in, something I have translated as "Revenge of the Ninja Warrior", Hana Yori Dango, etc. all don't look anything LIKE Ghost in the Shell[i] and so on.

So Satoshi Kon films ([I]Tokyo Godfather, Perfect Blue, Paprika) are crap by that logic? Mind Game? Noiseman Sound Insect? Memories?

[Bubs]

Well the way I see it, toned down figures = more animation freedom, seeing how having less to worry about gives animators room to really expand their concepts. Now i'm not gonna lie; there's A LOT of shit out there cluttering the market that uses this watered-down method. Those aren't the ones you look for. You find the ones that exploit the animations as far as they possibly can, whether it's fight scenes to cinematography to you-name-it.

Take a good look at those older "classic" anime cartoons. In case you didn't know it, a good chunk of them didn't exactly run buttery-smooth, something much more attainable with today's anime approach. That doesn't make this generation better than the last, but it is a factor to take into consideration.

So I don't know. To each his own I suppose.

[Duq]

:sadcheerleader:

edit: ooops bumped it because of the spam I guess. Sorry

[J Wilson]

First of all, of course anime is art, whatever that means. At this point I'd love to just have the word "art" stricken from the language to get rid of silly debates.

I think you are comparing the "old" animation with the "new" animation on a pretty superficial level. Naruto, as one person pointed out is ANIMATED very well at times (which you can't see or compare in still obviously). As for being desaturated, there are certainly many times when that is called for. A more restrained color palette is more real, and gives you more places to go with color- just like in illustration and painting. Not everything can be saturated and detailed. Sometimes it just isn't called for.

Lastly, I think several of your examples are comparing TV to more expensive productions.

[Ohaeri]

"I'M STILL ALIVE!"

That's what this thread is saying, right now. :(

[DeJakhalz]

I agree on some points with you, I also think the anime has changed a lot but I think some new anime are very cool in the modern style. Like Samurai Champloo

Also if you look at Disney, the old movies: like bambi and snowwhite are way better looking than Mulan and Pirateplanet. But the Disney I thought was best was actually a mix of the modern and old disney style, which was ofcourse: The lion king.

[Anid Maro]

Hm... my necromancy senses are tingling...

[Ohaeri]

I think it's high time this thread got a lock, seriously . . .

[Elwell]

Agreed. Lockety lock lock lock.