Olberman's voice on The failure of America

[davi]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uqxmPjB0WSs

[EvilCommunist]

It's outrageous, really. I heard about this last week and I've been pissed off about it since. I hope people get riled up, it's worth it.

[Pennywise]

It's outrageous, really. I heard about this last week and I've been pissed off about it since. I hope people get riled up, it's worth it

I agree, but they won't :frustrated:

[Carnifex]

well,i'm waiting for reactions now.

[2b BOY]

I think no one won't because there is a lot of confusion, and arguing going on. People telling others their right your wrong, no one seems to listen to anyone. There are many sides being taken within our country, and a lot of shit is becoming blown out of proportion. It's no longer reasoning, it's just proving whether next person is right or wrong just to boost their pride.

To sum it up, the world seems to be similar to internet forums when it comes to debates, and arguments.

This may be the information age, but people get so much information and bad facts, and fancy bullshiting it's hard to trust anyone anymore. We have information, but it's hard for most people to know what to do with it all. it hinders us. Plus it doesnt seem like people question things anymore, and it can be hard to do so. Who has time to question everything that is thrown in your face? And, the worst thing to me at the moment, is it seems like no one likes to read anymore.

The information age. The age where cynicism, and pessimism (sp?) is the in thing. But I have hope for us all :D. The average person may think the average person is dumb but hopefully we get over that.

[dogfood]

Not knowing what information to believe is not new.

[Jason Snair]

I read about this last week fron another site and quickly told some friends as well as people from the office. My friends were as worried as I was upon reading it, however, the people I work with didn't really seem to care. Infact, they insisted that this was really nothing....AND...that this is what should happen, that the president is essentially doing the right thing and that non-citizens who try to destroy America shouldn't have our rights and shouldn't be protected in any way. Some of them also stated that what military doesn't really have any jurisdiction over citizens so we shouldn't have anything to worry about. I tried to explain my position; that's it's a pretty slipery slope were headed in. If they can declare anyone "enemy combatants", then essentially any citizens, who goes against the goverment, could lose their rights overnight.

I really became dismayed at their reaction though. I'm not fully knowledgable about Habeas Corpus, or what the president's doing...but deep down...this just seems so wrong on so many levels. Perhaps it's an overreaction.

[Shamagim]

Sooo, basically you are now 1950 1970-ish South America in terms of law.

Habeus Corpus basically means: "show me the body", is not a hard term to undestand because is basic....very very basic. Is pointing out at a guy and say " hey!, this is the guy...And I beleive he did this..What do you think?".

Is potentially dangerous and not seen as a big deal now because of it´s low human impact and most people just don´t care because they think this law will not affect them.

Edit: But everything remains to be seen.

[wheezy]

Makes me want to beat down the White House door. At this point now, I don't think, had it been another republican administration in the White House, we would be where we are now. I think these dirty mofo's would have screwed up a management position at the Waffle House and stopped selling waffles.

Thanks for posting that, it got me fired up. Makes me want to write a letter to my reps and ask them what the fuck they are doing with my rights.

[Kresh]

where are you Captain America

[Shamagim]

Though is not really my problem or my position to say anything about this, here you have reliable information about it:

The Bill in question:

http://www.law.georgetown.edu/faculty/nkk/documents/MilitaryCommissions.pdf

After reading this, your opinion is yours to have, whatever that opinion might be. :) ( at least it will be entirely yours.)

[Blue]

where are you Captain America
indeed.

[LaPalida]

You gotta hand it to Dubya for singlehandedly destroying a law that was in place since 1300's. The law that was the foundation of democracy of the Western World.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Habeas_corpus

... but then again Dubya is THE DEVIL! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8GZmsbbiUZ0)

[skullsquid]

The goddamn masses don't know about habeus corpus and they don't give a shit. That's why the american people DESERVE to be put under a goddamn dictatorship.

Why the hell aren't these idiots ousted yet?Why do they still have the power to pass legislation such as this?

People are too fucking content with their petty lives to give a crap about it.

I love how priorities in this country are set, we'd rather impeach a president because he got a blowjob, but a group of swines like these are allowed to stay in power and furthermore consolidate their power with such actions.

[Icon]

This feels like the setup for V for Vendetta, or one of those cyber punk movies, where the government has just too much power.
Keeping track of this government you can tell this was coming a loong time ago. This president lost his mind a long time ago; it's a government that does things for their own benefit, rather than the country’s actual good. For example, a while ago all the intelligence agencies of this country summed up a report saying that the "war on terror" to keep us safe has only made us more of a prime target for terrorism. Or how they blamed Bill Clinton for not stopping 911 from happening, while this goverment was informed at least 5 months in advanced of terrorist plots!

I for one hate our president and it's republican regime. A bunch of bastards that lie to your face even if you have the hard cold facts in your hand. (oh yeah, this stuff pisses me off beyond all belief!)
This law just gives this madman the ability to put anyone he wants in jail without any reasoning! ..... I wonder if he'll abuse of this power, and start putting liberals in jail.

Oh yeah, and I for one adore Keith Olbermann, and Bill Maher! They are my heroes!

[0kelvin]

I'm a strong supporter of not attributing to malice that which can be explained by stupidity, but can anyone really be this stupid?



0kelvin

[skullsquid]

They just proved it, time and time again.

If we are going to blow up in a nuclear inferno, thank these idiots.

[JAG.]

im glad to see more people finally 'waking up' from the lie that has been 'America' for over a century. this place... no no no.. the people running the government running the country have become more and more corrupt since it became a communist government back in the mid 1800's.

when this country and government were formed.. the idea was that the PEOPLE are the government.. and that all would decide and agree to whats fair and equal for all citizens and non-citizens to live a life of peace and happiness as a united nation of 'man'. today.. 'the government' has become the force that controls and must not be upset because it can make life a living hell.. or just destory it completely. and its stranglehold on most people's minds and the fear it instills in their hearts is the best weapon it could have.

this is not the first time a country and its people have been in this situation.. its history repeating. and through-out history, in all nations, what happens is always one of two things.. but end up at the same place:

1. revolution to take back what is rightfully the citizens' true freedom of life and end the tyranny
2. submission and opression.. eventually leading to despair or abandonment.. and eventually extinction.

both eventually end up in violence and death.. and its usually a matter of time. but then its a question of whether you will fight or not when that time arrives.

america was built from revolution.. from the basis of escape from a man, a force, that wanted control over the lives of many. so why are the people letting this happen again?? He who has all the guns makes all the rules, is it??

this will probably spark a very long debate over all sorts of things.. but its something that should be discussed to educate those who do not know.. - JAG

[Icon]

What I "love" about this is that they do this in the name to keep us safe from terrorists, so we can keep our "freedom loving" lifestyle, all while using fear tactics to mold the masses, and taking away our basic rights......hmm, who's the real terrorist hereee??

Feed me some more bull crap, it's especially delicious today!

[skullsquid]

Heads need to roll for fuck's sake.


Red October, yes please.

[nicolas]

I love how priorities in this country are set, we'd rather impeach a president because he got a blowjob, but a group of swines like these are allowed to stay in power and furthermore consolidate their power with such actions.


brilliant.

[Zaknafain]

It’s not like it’s something new. It’s just that now they have the permission to do so.

-_-

[2100]

It’s not like it’s something new. It’s just that now they have the permission to do so.

-_-

That makes a HUGE difference, now you nobody can save you.

I predicted this would happen just a couple days before it came on the news, I was fairly entertained at first. Now...

[lysander]

Aren't your elections soon anyway? im rooting for you guys, good luck with the whole not becoming a police state thing, really. Slippery slope and all that.

[Jason Snair]

well I'm glad to see other posting similar feelings to mine. The sad things is, is that I haven't even seen this talked about on the news. Both times I've read about this came from an internet website or forum. Olberman seems to be the only one talking about it, while other news station quibble over fences and walls and why they should be built along every border (cuz, gee that worked so well in the past) or why Anna Nicole Smith's son died.

Although, watching the clips of Bush actually signing the bill and then smiling and clapping was disgusting. (I was almost waiting to see him twirl his "evil" mustache and then snicker) I mean, do they know what they're doing? They have to. These men (and women) are disgusting.

And thanks for that link Shamagin...i'm headed there now.

[Cthogua]

I don't know if any of you guys have checked it out, but wander on over the the Project for a New American Century website (http://www.newamericancentury.org/)and give a read to their mission statement about "American leadership being good for America, and the World" These guys arn't just some group of crazies bent on world domination, take a look at how many former PNAC members (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_for_the_New_American_Century#Bush_administ ration)were appointed to positions in the Bush Administration. These guys are driving our current foreign and domestic policies.

So my question for people who still refuse to believe the government has been hijacked by ultra-wealthy corporate and individual interests, and has in its heart only good will for you and your family, is...Why wouldn't the extremely wealthy (individuals and even more so corporate) take steps to maintain and expand their wealth and power? Isn't that the spirit of capitalism? Don't even bring up conspiracy theories, at this point that is just a sad attempt to discredit through association...there doesn't need to be a conspiracy. It's just money making sure there is more money coming in a world where national borders are becoming less and less meaningful. Don't get me wrong, I think real democracy is probably the best form of large scale government, but what we're dealing with today is not that at all. It is being packaged and sold to us and the rest of the world as morally upright, freedom loving democracy, when in reality it's morally bankrupt, freedom at a price, "corporatocracy" being fueled with a new version of Manifest Destiny.

[le capitan]

kind of shocking: abe did it back in the day. but he was in the civil war. but still...

[JAG.]

lets analyze the terms used in describing this country and its government. for starters.. its not a democracy.. it has never really been. it was a republic, where the wealthy make the rules. and it then became and still is a communist government.. the minute the first 'ammendment' and 'federal regulation' was enacted to control our businesses, systems pf transport, communications, and even our food & health. do a little reading on the Marxist Communist manifesto and you'll notice the only words replaced therein and used as american policy are the words 'America' and 'democracy'.

and 'freedom'.. please cut the shite. who are you kidding?? what freedom do we have, really? at any time, everything you own can be taken away and everything you believe can be used to incriminate you. oh you dont wanna be incriminated?? so you dont believe our system of control is right for you?? then you are a potential enemy threat and can therefore be 'eliminated'.

what was the first ammendment to the constitutuion??.. the freedom of speech. the ability to say what you want about anyone or anything you want any time or place you want. is that really so?? today at least?? ever heard of this thing called censorship? and if you talk bad about the president, the government, or the policies of this country.. you're immediately classified as a 'non-patriot' and you're 'just as bad as the terrorists'.

its gone as far as labelling citizens who exercise their right to speech are 'enemy combatants'.. communists governments usually just shot people for that instead.. but we're not far off.

whats worse is that the citizens of this country LET this happen to them. they're either too afraid to do anything about it or are too ignorant to know its happening to them. therefore nothing is done and the problem grows larger.. the ones who are aware and speak out are somehow working for the enemy.

even after bush is out of office.. the pile of shit he leaves behind will be stinking up the place for years to come. i only pray we have a man/woman of morals to try to clean up the mess.. but im not holding my breath for it. - JAG

[Daniel Millar]

I find it rather sad that once upon a time, America went to war over stuff like this. As I understand it, your war of independance from britain was fought for rights such as habeus corpus, and now most people are too pacified to even care that some of thier fundamental rights are starting to be undermined. It's not the age of information, its the age of entertainment. Entertainment that distracts us from any real issues and allows things like this to happen unchallanged.

[JAG.]

indeed.. most people in america would rather be netertained than free. we complain about having to pay high prices and fees for our medical care.. but we gladly pay a guy millions of dollars to run around and play with a ball and with their friends. and we pay money to watch them do this as well.. - JAG

[Mungus]

....please dont put a tick next to the guy whose knuckles leave shit smears on the oval office carpet......please,

on behalf of the rest of the world, you have our eternal gratitude, and be embraced like brothers and sisters once again....

[Mungus]

....shouldn't
there
be
some
public
enquiry
about
that
911
Pentagon
mystery
explosion,
or
am
I
suffering
some
weird
distorted-perception
of
reality,
and
a
BOEING
really
did
pound
into
those
walls.....
???

I can't believe how uncurious everyone seems to be about it....
just crawling back into my cell now, cock in hand and fashion
TV on the telly

[Dougbot]

WAR IS PEACE

FREEDOM IS SLAVERY

IGNORANCE IS STRENGTH

~1984

[ceberae]

This is the link to the act as passed by the congress:

Link (http://frwebgate.access.gpo.gov/cgi-bin/getdoc.cgi?dbname=109_cong_bills&docid=f:s3930enr.txt.pdf)

It's a bit different than the one proposed. I find section 948r to be the most interesting one, as it talks about statements obtained by, I kid you not, torture and "coercion" and how they affect the "trial".

[2b BOY]

Ok ok. I propose we turn into an Anarchy. Unlimited freedom!

Me first!

Whips out pistol and shoots ceberae in the head (nothing personal man you were just sitting next to me). Ok! Now! If no one wants to turn out like ceberea join me! I cankeep you safe.

Freedom!!! weeeeee. *starts looting*

It's so crazy we are losing all our rights, soon we will be slaves. We cant think at all for ourselves anymore, everybodys gonna die! run for the hills!

[JAG.]

nice find Ceberae.. very interesting document.

heres a link with a lot of interesting suspicions. im not into the whole conspiracy theory thing.. but its something to think about: www.infowars.com

[Shamagim]

Ok ok. I propose we turn into an Anarchy. Unlimited freedom!
.........
Please don´t be a child...ok? ( a counter-argument is more welcome than cheap sarcasm)


-------------------------------------


PS: as for my own opinion I do think this goes beyond the Liberal/Conservative fights, A liberal regime might very well abuse this too, that is why is so potentialy dangerous...anyone can abuse it.

[dogfood]

Dang, I've been reading the wrong things. I thought "communism" was an economic system.

Bugger me.

And just a little something to nosh on: historically, freedom is the mother of anarchy and anarchy has always been the homicidal victim of oppression.

[Shamagim]

Dang, I've been reading the wrong things. I thought "communism" was an economic system.

Bugger me.

And just a little something to nosh on: historically, freedom is the mother of anarchy and anarchy has always been the homicidal victim of oppression.

Santiago, Chile:
-September 11, 1973...

Not always...

[2b BOY]

Alright alright I appologise. It was childish of me. That is just what it sounds like at times in forums. But, it's good to see this one is standing with a bit of maturity.

Sometimes it just seems like people severely over exaggerate the situation. Such as comparing these days to movies and books like 1984. I may be to optimistic, but it just doesnt seem like human nature can ever let that happen. And, I myself along with many others would never let that happen.



Ugh sorry for all the edits and grammar corrections i did. I have a quick trigger finger when it comes to hitting the reply button.

[Funkshion]

Habeas corpus for non-citizens is what's affected.

IIRC this new bill seems to offer protection to those classified as unlawful enemy combatants; something they did not have before. They can now challenge their status all the way to the Supreme Court.

[2100]

WAR IS PEACE

FREEDOM IS SLAVERY

IGNORANCE IS STRENGTH

~1984

Funny thing is that's supposed to be required reading.

[Dougbot]

Sometimes it just seems like people severely over exaggerate the situation. Such as comparing these days to movies and books like 1984. I may be to optimistic, but it just doesnt seem like human nature can ever let that happen. And, I myself along with many others would never let that happen.

Oh I was just playing a bit, I know it’s contrived.

The sad thing though is 1984 is very extreme, more like a metaphor. So people go, 'Well it's not that bad' without realizing how bad it is. Take the how the war is presented (ignoring whether it's right or wrong). The military consulted with directors like Michael Bay on how to make it look actiony, they pushed for helmet cams, supplied 'war graphics' to news stations, even set up an ftp site for daily 'best of explosions' videos for news agencies to grab, and to top it off no gore or blood is really ever shown. Everything is sanitized. It's not a face saying "Obey" on a vid screen, but is it any better?

As far as the bill, it promotes things that we tried others for (war crimes) in the past. It blurs the line of what an ‘enemy combatant’ is even more that the 2001 and 2003 definitions. This bill is an atrocity and nothing more than a get out of jail free card for those who know they did wrong. It is completely against everything they say we are supposed to stand for.

I know I was naive, but I used to believe we were better than that. When I was little I asked my Mom 'Why don't we just assassinate that guy?' and she replied 'Because we're America.' I believed it. I wish I still could.

To quote our current President: "You can't take the high horse and claim the low road."

[blakboks]

Similarly to the notion other people have mentioned that the US is a country that wants to be entertained, I must say that I find it appalling that we are only getting upset enough to have the motivation to do something about it around election times. If this bill had passed this time last year or this time next year, I'd definitely put money that it wouldn't receive the same amount of attention it's getting now. We should always be doing something about the state of things. Bush isn't even half-done with this term, why are there no impeachment hearings? Why aren't we in such an uproar about his job as President (with less than half the country in approval) as to do something to move him out of office?

[dogfood]

Verily, Shamagim. Sometimes oppression takes a knife to the mom. What I was emphasizing was how people have often welcomed Stability drowned in Oppression Gravy in order to quell the hunger brought on by chaos.

And the U.S. is not a country based on revolution. The U.S. struggled militarily for self-governance, but it based its system on the rule of law (born of the foremost pedigree available at the time, plus a slew of experimental stuff). This is why instead of a bunch of armed yokels rushing over to the next town and taking over the mayor's office, we have an army of lawyers, driving BMW's and suing anything that moves.

[JAG.]

indeed.. '[I]based[I] on revolution' is perhaps not the correct term to describe the creation of the nation. but certainly, the fuel was oppression and inequality and tyranny that eventually.. the effect was an overwhelming anger and a loss of peacful options for a solution. a revolution was inevitable, since surrender was not desired. you push something long enough to threaten its existence.. its only a matter of time till it pushes you back.. i think this concept is greatly ignored or just taken for granted. - JAG

[Justin.]

@JAG:

"ever heard of this thing called censorship? and if you talk bad about the president, the government, or the policies of this country.. you're immediately classified as a 'non-patriot' and you're 'just as bad as the terrorists'."

Gee whiz, so I guess that makes most of you all Non-patriots and almost-terrorists.

"its gone as far as labelling citizens who exercise their right to speech are 'enemy combatants'.. communists governments usually just shot people for that instead.. but we're not far off."

No one here has been shot yet, neither have tons of other extreme anti-bush people. I'm no liberal but I'm not what you'd call Pro-Bush. But JAG, that post (#28) Kind of pissed me off. I'm just curious, how many valid examples can you cite about people being labeled "Just as bad as terrorists" after bashing Bush? If that were the case, over half of the attentive public would probably be judged as anti-patriots. I think some people are getting a little excited in here. I haven't read the whole bill yet, so I'm holding my peace on that, but IMO there is a slight tinge of overreaction in here (from certain people). Not to say this whole thing doesn't seem really nuts in the first place though, but things like what JAG said seem a bit naive.
So far the only persecution I have seen over anything speech or press related by the government is the FCC, but I'm also keen on good morality, so I'm not totally against them.

As soon as someone is convicted officially for an outcry against government or something, that does NOT involve a threat (nor imply one), then I will change my mind about that.

Now I'm off to read that really damn long PDF so I will actually have facts on this whole thing.

[Shamagim]

@JAG:
that post (#28 ) Kind of pissed me off. .................................................. ........ I think some people are getting a little excited in here.

.
You can add yourself to the list ;).

--------


Well to clarify, yes, this bill puts enphasis in the world Alien, with a clear definition of what is meant in the bill, so it doesn´t suppose to apply to US citizens.


But if this law is retroactive, what about those 3 U.S citizens that were classifyed as enemy combatants?.
By all what this bill says, they should be released as they cannot classify as the subject of this bill.......Unless they do somehow, but that would be a huge contradiction.


As for how nice this thing is writen, I mean they managed to say: " We won´t torture people...unless we want to"....or " we have a list of things we can´t do to them, but we can kill them anyways"....or my personal favorite " We can arrest you, put you away with no lawer for as long as we want , untill you classify as an enemy combatant, then you have the right to a military trial where you may or may not be tortured".


I guess "24" was a popular show after all if people still thinks this is ok.

What do you guys think after reading all this?( the bill, not my post :P) even if only seems to affect aliens.

[dogfood]

This may seem very pessimistic, but I'm wondering why people who are a) not claimed by any government, and b) caught in attacks against coalition forces qualify for the same rights as U.S. citizens. Disregard the fact that many were not fighting, many others' actions could be interpreted as defending their homes, whilst others are absolutely clue minus about what is happening. "Liberty and Justice for all" is short for "... all voters", isn't it? Or is it "... all tax payers"?

And while there are volumes from Allies in German and Japanese POW camps, I can't recall seeing more than a paragraph or two on how Allies treated Axis POW's. I know America did a number on Japanese-Americans, but not about the real deals. Does anyone have any info there?

And while this bill is disturbing and we are certainly in one of those scary points in American history that Mr. Olberman described, what has me more worried is that the parties seem to be diverging. There are still a multitude of candidates who hug the middle, but it really seems like the RNC and DNC are trying to distance themselves not only from each other (like siblings pressing against the station wagon doors in hopes of making the car wider), but also from the mainstream, moderate voter. There was a time when the main party contenders would fight to straddle the line and voter apathy was the order of the day. Now you have voter enmity. It's not voting for someone, it's voting against the other idiot.

How did an ultra-conservative get re-elected with ordinarily poor approval numbers? The DNC threw an ultra-liberal on the stage. Their favorite, not as liberal, but not a feel-good guy, didn't win a single state. The two most palatable and responsible choices where watered down by the high-profile Bush-bashers. When almost half the people voted for him and you call them idiots, it's not going to sit well come election day.

Who got the Republicans a second term in the White House? The Democrats. All the Republicans had to do was prevent (or look to prevent) another attack on U.S. soil. They did. Now they need the same mojo to keep Congressional momentum from smacking them in the faces (which they're doing to themselves without any help). How do they do that?

Let's lock-up some guys nobody wants (save for some crack-pot ALCU lawyers).



So, this isn't going to be popular, but while Olberman is going in the right direction, the acidic vitriol of impeachment talk and the like is political suicide, lights people's "left-wing conspiracy" buttons, and waters down the reasoned, logical voices who are trying to effect real change.

When one rages down the street, foaming at the mouth, and slathering on about why this leader or that should have his testes painted yellow and stuffed up his nose, one should expect to be labeled "rabid".

[LaPalida]

Well to clarify, yes, this bill puts enphasis in the world Alien, with a clear definition of what is meant in the bill, so it doesn´t suppose to apply to US citizens.


Citizen or not they're still human and they have the same basic rights.


As soon as someone is convicted officially for an outcry against government or something, that does NOT involve a threat (nor imply one), then I will change my mind about that.


But by then it will be too late. When a doctor tells you that you have a lump in your colon... do you wait to see what develops of it or do you check it out right away. Alarmism is a good thing because the price of freedom is eternal vigilance. Losing freedom doesn't happen overnight... it starts with little things that most people are going to dismiss as unimportant or reasonable. By the time you're ready for your outcry you will end up branded as a "peace disturber" and thrown in jail without any rights left to your name.

[LaPalida]

Ok ok. I propose we turn into an Anarchy. Unlimited freedom!

Me first!

Whips out pistol and shoots ceberae in the head (nothing personal man you were just sitting next to me). Ok! Now! If no one wants to turn out like ceberea join me! I cankeep you safe.

Freedom!!! weeeeee. *starts looting*

It's so crazy we are losing all our rights, soon we will be slaves. We cant think at all for ourselves anymore, everybodys gonna die! run for the hills!

In Anarchy other people have guns too.

[Justin.]

For the record, I never said that I would outcry. I'm probably just being stupid, but this reminds of the NSA wire-tappings. People were creeped the fuck out- "THEY ARE TAPPING MY PHONE???"- I mean, come on. What do they have to hide? "THEY KNOW ABOUT MY CRUSH ON MY SISTER!" They have more important things to worry about. While the scenario is vastly different, I can't help but feel a slight amount of that feeling- probably because you are making it personal;
By the time you're ready for your outcry you will end up branded as a "peace disturber" and thrown in jail without any rights left to your name.

While it strikes a bit of that 'fear' chord, I always favor the
"By the time someone is ready to cry out, they will have been branded as a peace disturber and thrown in jail without any rights left to their name."

Now that I re-read it, under the current administration, It should read
"By the time someone is ready to cry out, they will have been branded as a war disturber and thrown in jail without any rights left to their name."

=P


EDIT: While I am only half way through American Government, they tell us what makes American [democracy] different is the respect officials have for the constitution, as well as the Checks and Balances; as far as I am aware, the Judicial (unlike the Legislative and executive) is bipartisan- or at least, there is no 'majority presence". I am not totally versed on their capabilities, but can't they rule this Bill Unconstitutional?

[Silvertone]

Justin, the Black Maria is coming.......FOR YOU!!!!

[Flip]

This video's good, it gives a breakdown of some of the major parts of the bill:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=igycXBseoAg&mode=related&search=

One of the best points there is that a good democratic system should be designed to be run by devils, the system should keep them in check so that it doesn't rely upon the good will of the leaders.

[skullsquid]

I think some people are being exceedingly naive here, the problem lies in the big gray area that this bill legitimizes, and succeeds in making it even blurrier.

[Justin.]

Black Maria- is that from the Grudge or something?

BTW Disco, are you speaking about me? :o


O=)

[JAG.]

well originally this thread was about the video on the bill... but thats only one issue to be concerned with. this just adds more strength to the stranglehold.

as for the 'excitement' of 'specific' members.. well, some people get it and some dont. and this IS an issue that merits an enthusiastic response.

as for specific media-documented example, i dont have an arsenal ready for such an occasion but some searching would yield sufficient results.. - JAG

[Justin.]

As my annoyingly libertarian brother would say, "The burden of proof is on you"

I hate that argument, I'll just drop it.

[Blue]

To bit by bit remove liberty to preserve liberty, is like having sex to preserve virginity.

Power corrupts, and ultimate power corrupts ultimately. Bit by bit, this president is putting more power into his own hands, and regardless of his intentions, he is nowhere near wise enough to handle the power he is so eagerly awarding himself.

Watch carefully friends...he will be like a toddler with a handgun.

[dogfood]

To bit by bit remove liberty to preserve liberty, is like having sex to preserve virginity.
As fun as it sounds, that analogy holds with almost nothing (save sex).

[Prometheus|ANJ]

Comes from here:

...wiki/Bombing_for_peace_is_like_fucking_for_virginity (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombing_for_peace_is_like_fucking_for_virginity)

(Photo looks strangely fake/composed)

[LaPalida]

haha ... which reminds me of http://www.fuckforforest.com/

[Il Capo]

Right, "Bush is obtaining more and more power." The key word there is Bush. However, as was mentioned before, this is all beyond merely Bush. "How could this guy, with a very low approval rating, be re-elected!?" For one, the our election process is a joke. Secondly, and my point, is that there is a much larger power in control. Bush is just a figurehead. The guy is barely literate. You think he's got all the big plans?

My concern is that we cannot do anything to fix it. Can we? Is there a solution? There are words that people toss around like Revolution and Impeachment. But then what? If Bush got pulled out of office right now, who would go in? Cheney. If the masses got off there ass and somehow overthrew the government as we know it, then what? Somebody has to be in charge.

The reality is that the average American is either too uneducated and destracted to realize what is happening. Or, they do realize, but don't care because they are content in the illusion of security that we have. Or, they do care but are too afraid to take action. OR, are willing to take action but have no idea where to start!

I have never read Plato's Republic, but it talks about an ideal society. It talks about an ideal leader. How does this society function? How is it governed? I would like to find all of these answers and the lecture may help.

What options do we have at this point? The PNAC is a disclosed plan for American world domination. I'm not sure voting Democrat in the next election will do us any good. There must be an alternative. There has to be a way for someone without an R or a D after there name to come into power. Is it possible? Or, is the stranglehold those in power now have on the system bound to choke it out?