......

[That fat kid]

I was wondering if a person enrolled in a university art program was really getting the proper education to be competitive in the professional art community. It would seem to me that the private school setting would be better suited at conditioning a person to produce quality art because of the community and program itself.

I don't mean this to be a debate about any one university or private school, but examples would be appreciated. (plus I don't know if there is already a thread about this...if there is, please link me to it!)

[invinciblewombat]

I can't speak for the fine arts program at my school (University of Cincinnati) but the design program has been amaxing so far, I've been here for only half a year so far but I've greatly improved my drawing and digital rendering skills. I know a few people in fine arts and from what I see of it it's more oriented towards traditional art, not something you would produce for a client. There is a section in the design school though thats a sort of jack of all trades design course and I think would be more suited for concept art.

[invinciblewombat]

I'm not saying that the art student here can't do commisions, it's just that that isn't what their program is geared towards. The design community here isn't too art centered as many of the applicants came in with no art background and no portfolio is required to enter, but the art students practically eath breathe and live it. As for your artisitc reputation and your education, I would think that skills and a good portfolio would be more important to employers than where you went, and judging from your sketchbook you should have no problem there, although there is a co-op program we have that suposedly gives you a lot of help in finding a job one you graduate since you will have about a year and a half of work experience when you graduate.

[bdfoster]

TFK--

I think it depends on the school, the programs enrolled in, and the student. I graduated high school with 4 other students who all went to art schools-- Maryland Institute College of Art, MassArt, School of the Museum of Fine Arts Boston, and SVA-- wheras I went to Syracuse's Illustration program. I can honestly say that I graduated with the strongest portfolio of the 5 of us (though part of me still suspects that the SVA one was more the student). I also wish, in retrospect, that I had been *more* focussed in college, because I know there were so many resources that I could have tapped into and learned even more from, but didn't. I also wish I had used more of the universities broad education base to learn more things important to the business side of art, because I do feel that part was lacking in my education. (one of many reasons I'm not exclusively making art for a living)

The short answer is that there are universities with great programs in art out there, just as there are art schools. Look into options in both if you're thinking of transferring.

[Jason Manley]

at this point i am convinced that the current art school programs for illustration/drawing/painting are not worth the money you will spend. it doesnt matter where you go when it all just comes down to your ability to find the information you need. no program is going to give it to you. you are going to have to dig and fight and scrap for info. save the cash. study somewhere that has the facilities and a couple decent instructors to help guide you and save yourself from the hundred thousand dollars in loans.

if yer parents are paying and cost isnt an option..then go wherever you want. in the end, as said, it just comes down to your own self motivation, equiptment, and the facility...though a good group of peers is nice...so check out the student work at the schools to see if it is similar to the kind of people you want to study around.


jason

[Profil]

at this point i am convinced that the current art school programs for illustration/drawing/painting are not worth the money you will spend. it doesnt matter where you go when it all just comes down to your ability to find the information you need. no program is going to give it to you. you are going to have to dig and fight and scrap for info. save the cash. study somewhere that has the facilities and a couple decent instructors to help guide you and save yourself from the hundred thousand dollars in loans.

if yer parents are paying and cost isnt an option..then go wherever you want. in the end, as said, it just comes down to your own self motivation, equiptment, and the facility...though a good group of peers is nice...so check out the student work at the schools to see if it is similar to the kind of people you want to study around.


jason



Have any special schools in mind when you are talking about "study somewhere that has the facilities and a couple decent instructors to help guide you and save yourself from the hundred thousand dollars in loans."?
Because I live in Sweden and have no clue which school to choose (if I choose one) in 2-3 years.

[squirpy]

I go to university and I'm a sophomore, and while the art program is not as good as an art school program, I feel that I am getting a good art education due to my own efforts. I also sometimes feel like I should probably be working harder than I am on my own. The university classes have definetly helped me.

One thing that my design teacher said stuck with me. She's worked in the design feild for years, and she said that in some ways, university students have an edge. Particularly because they are accustomed to dealing with non-artists. She said she has seen kids come out of art schools and they aren't prepared for people who "don't get it."

I also feel like you can make more interesting art if you have taken classes in all areas of study. Just because you learn about all kinds of stuff that you can work in, even unconsiously.

Dunno, I'm not pro, so I can't say that this has worked for me yet, but I think I'll be able to make it work. The instruction is good and I'm definetly saving money.

[Zord]

TFK, i'm in the exact same boat as you, just a different state. It's the same deal here where the other students are art students just because, and have no ideas at all about what they want to do afterwards. It's just a bunch of bloated ego's with limited work in even less time.

Right now, our best asset has to be CA, along with personal motivation and drive.

[figure2]

...so check out the student work at the schools to see if it is similar to the kind of people you want to study around.This is the real key to picking the school that will prepare you for a career in commercial art. When I graduated high school in the early 70s, I chose Pratt Institute because it had a great reputation and I had met artists, illustrators and art directors whose work I admired who were also Pratt graduates. These people had collectively graduated from Pratt over a span of time from the mid 50s through the late 60s.

A lot can happen in a decade and a school's board of governors can make decisions that are meant to improve their bottom line but can be detrimental to the quality of education at the institution. I left after 1-1/2 semesters thouroughly disgusted by the prevailing attitude that realism in art was blase and irrelevant and feeling like Pratt had been vastly overrated. The school I finally graduated from was an almost unknown small art school in CT. What struck me on my first visit was the diplay of 2nd year still-life studies in the school's reception area, the quality of which surpassed most of the 4th year students at Pratt. That visit, the quality of the student work and the school's no-nonsense philosophy is was what convinced me that this was where I needed to be.

When picking a school consider its reputation as a starting point but ultimately it is the quality of the work being produced by the current students, not necessarily the graduates that should guide you. And that can only be evaluated by an on-site visit.

[PHL]

figure2, the school that you're talking about in CT. Is it Lyme Academy by any chance?
I took a class there once with Deane Keller (it was more like a workshop acutally), and I learned more about figure drawing from him than I did during my two semesters at a different art school. Some teachers just don't give a shit. The administration doesn't really care either. You just have to take things into your own hands.
The prices for the private schools are getting a bit out of hand. They're around 30 thousand nowadays (even Lyme :X ).
Jason Manley said it best.

[figure2]

figure2, the school that you're talking about in CT. Is it Lyme Academy by any chance?It was actually the Paier School of Art in Hamden.

I took a class there once with Deane Keller (it was more like a workshop acutally), and I learned more about figure drawing from him than I did during my two semesters at a different art school.I had his father for 1 semester at Paier. Deane Keller Sr. had been a student of George Bridgeman's at The Art Student's League. He was an excellent teacher but quite elderly when I studied with him. 3/4 of the way through the semester he suffered a stroke and had to give up teaching. The younger Deane Keller taught in the same tradition at the Lyme Acadamy but sadly, I heard he died a few months ago.
Some teachers just don't give a shit. The administration doesn't really care either. You just have to take things into your own hands.
The prices for the private schools are getting a bit out of hand. They're around 30 thousand nowadays (even Lyme :X ).When you are paying that kind of money you definately want to get your money's worth.

[Lemai]

I totally agree with wat you were saying Mr. Manley. I am a senior at Ringling School of Art and Design and it has always been frustrating here. I'm not doggin it, but it hasnt been easy dealing with the "politics." The illustration program at this school, i hate to say it, is just...i'll just put it this way, it's not worth the thousands of dollars i pay. There is not enough focus on basic traditional fundamentals. It's all very commercial. That's why more than half the illustration students here that graduate are still drawing like a 12 year old and have the work ethic of a fifth grader. Nobody is really telling us as students the hardcore truth about our work.
And if you are not interested in working for a greeting card company or editorial work, you are basically on your own. so for the past 3 years I've felt like i have been goin to 2 different schools at the same time. Every year, my portfolio consisted of nothing but the work i did outside of class. There was NOT ONE thing that was in there that i had done in one of my classes. And actually,Towards the end of my sophomore year, I was on the verge of transferring because I felt like i wasnt being taught anything and I was actually thinkin about just dropping out and doing it on my own. Shit i was doing it anyway, and i didnt want to waste anymore money on something that was not doing its job. But when i thought about it and got some professional's advice. I decided to just stick it out and get that lil piece of paper with my name on it. And Jason was right, it takes the passion and ambition of the individual to really make it happen. I dont come from a rich family at all, but i am so hungry for this that that's all i think about. And now that I think about it, being so angry and frustrated with not getting the teaching that i desired motivated me to work 10,000 times as hard outside of class. It pushed me to go out and look for other sources of information. From then on I never compared my work to other students, just to the professionals workin out in the field. I've learned more from doin that than i have from any classes here. And for that i'm very thankful.

So there are good and bad shit at every school. Yea i feel like i've been held back, but shit eventually works out at the end. It just all depends on your motivation and dedication to what you want to do..


- Lemai

[Taj]

...so check out the student work at the schools to see if it is similar to the kind of people you want to study around.

jason

I tried this at OCAD, I didn't like the type of work in general coming out of most programs, and I got yelled at by almost everyone.

[PHL]

" had his father for 1 semester at Paier. Deane Keller Sr. had been a student of George Bridgeman's at The Art Student's League. He was an excellent teacher but quite elderly when I studied with him. 3/4 of the way through the semester he suffered a stroke and had to give up teaching. The younger Deane Keller taught in the same tradition at the Lyme Acadamy but sadly, I heard he died a few months ago."

I was lucky enough to help him (Deane G. Keller) photograph a few original Bridgman drawings. The Bridgman books dont do his drawings justice. Maybe I'll post the photos here sometime. I think he passed away sometime in January of last year. Not sure of that. He was one of the best drawing teachers I've ever had.

Lemai-
Why would anyone tell you the truth about your work? If they did that, the school wouldn't be able to support itself. Everyone would go somewhere else because they'd be offended or something.
The CORE year is a great indication of what the rest of the education is going to be like. You really have to look outside for information in order to learn it (I think you're already doing that). The best thing to do is to get a group of dedicated friends, and that's it.

In my personal opinion I wouldn't reccommend going to a private institution, unless you already have your skills down. If the private school teaches the fundamentals well, then that's great.
If you don't have your skills down and decide to go, you hand over the $30,000, and then you find out that the teachers are not really dedicated. Well, I assume that you will be super pissed.

[HugeHarHar]

This is just my opinion about my school now, I'll find out if this applies over all next year, but if you the change then it really does help.

I go to the Atlanta College of Art. I choose an art school because a) I want to be an artist and b) I don't want to deal with math/science and the such if I don't need it. I spent as much time in high school going through Bridgman books, Hogarth books, and tried to learn as much anatomy as possible and such.

I've only had a semester's worth of schooling but I've already become drastically better then I was just a few months ago.

I don't know if maybe my school just has really good teachers compared to other schools or something, but I've learned way more then I would anywhere else, espically in this short amount of time.

[goldenavatar]

From what I've seen of my schools graphic design program, though it has yet to produce any outstanding illustrators, graphic designers, or artists in any capacity, it's given me the motivation I felt I needed to challenge myself to do more with myself artistically. Most of the students at my school aren't really serious about the courses they take or the material they're learning, but that's fairly typical with the bulk of the student body from any school regardless of major. Though I think highly of my instruction and some of my instructors, it doesn't mean I'm going to drop out of engineering science major courses anytime soon as I'm not particularly confident that a degree in the visual arts, regardless of how skilled I will potentially become, will be the best sole means for me to maintain a stable income for myself after graduation.

From my own obseration of others who've attended either art schools, or art programs at universities, it's takes a combination of both diligence from the student and the effectiveness of the instructors that decides if the student will become a capable potential professional artist, high emphasis on potential professional on that one. I have aquaintances who've graduated from major art schools with their bachelors degrees, and draw far poorer than I do, but at the sametime I have aquaintances who've never taken college level art classes who are spectacular artists and vice versa.

From what I've seen, regardless of whether you attend an art school, or major in art at a college or university, a college education is not an idle investment, where just passing the classes will be enough for your post graduate career. You've got to be committed to investing hours of time and energy into improving yourself from start to the finish. If you're not limited to choosing schools based upon either cost or location, then by all means find the schools that best suit you. Learn about them and the quality of students they graduate, and make your mind off of that.

[MikeMakesMonkeys]

It's all about the students - and unfortunately, in that respect there is a certain amount of luck involved. Case study begins:

I did a one year foundation Art and Design course and it was fantastic. Everyone got along really well and even though we were all doing very different things (Fine art, 3d, textiles, Graphics) it really worked. It was very easy to get inspired and we all ate lunch together in the hallway.

I went back in June to see the final show for the year that followed mine and instead of showing everyone's work they had selected the best and still... I don't want to offend anyone, but it was <looks around> crap. Bar a few it was crap. Same tutors, same fieldtrips, same program... but it was horrible. Talking with the tutors they said that the year just hadn't gelled. People didn't come in as much, lunch was a solatary activity and nobody knew anyone else's names.

Hope you get a good year group whatever you do. It definitely helps.