CHARLES BARGUE DRAWING BOOK question..

[the_allejo05]

i got the book and i have copied..freehand..up to plate 50.. mainly eyeballing and kinda of making looked like the original drawing..i have use bond paper and well and 2hb so far.
.now i got the latest issue of international artist and the guy that is talking about academic methods estresses accuracy down to the last millimeter and making it look exactly like the original..so on my last one i got a bit more technical and was messuring more..although eyeball but being more careful..with shading and all..plate 51 was pain in the arse..hehe..took me like 2 hours to finish it and still did not look exactly right..I have a hard time on keeping my eye on one spot..i wonder around..i use to drawing quick not paitenly , i could tell errors, but is hard to erase with this cheap paper..but im kinda happy.overall .my questions are any tips for doing this better..what kind of materials (vine charcoal or paper?..set up..this book says that the plates have to be copied from a distance on an easel has anyone here done this?...it looks to be very gruosome training..

[Molly]

geeza, in my opinion(and I stress: in-my-opinion), i think you should draw how it comes to you. You could, (and may be told by many) to spend several hours 'perfecting' a copy of a Bargue plate, but IMO i dont see how that is necassary. To me, learning to draw, is also finding and defining your inner self, YOUR style, your way of seeing things. Learning is a tool, the computer is a tool, oils, acrylic, charcoal - is a tool - the way you decide to put it down on paper, is your own instinct, your own desicion. By all means take the advice that is given to you here, and dont dismiss it - which i dont think you will - but utilise it, incorporate it into what you see and how your emotions push you.
Also, my eye wonders too. But I let it. Im not afraid to let it, because thats just me. If i concentrate on one thing too much, i over work it, and its ruined. So let your eye wonder, go draw the bits you are attracted to, because at least if you get that down, you are able to see it, visualise it and prepare yourself to complete the rendering with ease.

btw - I am also drinking a beautiful bottle of German reisling called The Bend In The River :) , and its helped me write this down with ease.....

Mollyx

[fishw]

have you checked this thread (http://www.conceptart.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=12104)? 2 hours for a bargue drawing is an uber rush job if you mean to use them in the way they were intended. it's very gruesome training. Personally, i'm not convinced by them. I've talked to people in florence doing them, and it helps you judge values but it's not gonna make you great at drawing. Getting good at drawing is a case of doing lots of drawings, but there we go. It is extremely satisfying if you do one properly, i did a couple and i don't regret it i just won't do more. rant over...bla bla bla ignore me.

[silverslash]

geeza, in my opinion(and I stress: in-my-opinion), i think you should draw how it comes to you. You could, (and may be told by many) to spend several hours 'perfecting' a copy of a Bargue plate, but IMO i dont see how that is necassary. To me, learning to draw, is also finding and defining your inner self, YOUR style, your way of seeing things. Learning is a tool, the computer is a tool, oils, acrylic, charcoal - is a tool - the way you decide to put it down on paper, is your own instinct, your own desicion. By all means take the advice that is given to you here, and dont dismiss it - which i dont think you will - but utilise it, incorporate it into what you see and how your emotions push you.
Also, my eye wonders too. But I let it. Im not afraid to let it, because thats just me. If i concentrate on one thing too much, i over work it, and its ruined. So let your eye wonder, go draw the bits you are attracted to, because at least if you get that down, you are able to see it, visualise it and prepare yourself to complete the rendering with ease.

btw - I am also drinking a beautiful bottle of German reisling called The Bend In The River :) , and its helped me write this down with ease.....

Mollyx

my advice is to get a bottle of whatever she has.
-jose

[the_allejo05]

thanks for the thread..i will spend more time on them..yeah they are suposed to train your eye to look harder and also they train your visual memory..

[tiddles2000]

Well I think copy them but not exactly to the last stroke that is silly, you may as well take a photo. Leonardos drawings do not look like Michaelangelo's but they both had their own genius. Use them to train your eye. funny really I was naturally brilliant at age 20, and now just dont have it any more. I could draw just by looking and no measuring at all, but now I need to copy them as well. ha ha.

[Dile_]

have you checked this thread (http://www.conceptart.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=12104)? 2 hours for a bargue drawing is an uber rush job if you mean to use them in the way they were intended. it's very gruesome training. Personally, i'm not convinced by them. I've talked to people in florence doing them, and it helps you judge values but it's not gonna make you great at drawing. Getting good at drawing is a case of doing lots of drawings, but there we go. It is extremely satisfying if you do one properly, i did a couple and i don't regret it i just won't do more. rant over...bla bla bla ignore me.


the way they were intended ? they were originally put together by Charles to show kids that for example an eye, isn't just a flat shape on something else that is flat, but actually a 3D form that sits on a plane and which has a relationship with all the other planes surrounding it, which eventually will make another 3D-form.

Spending 300 + hours on something like a pencil drawing is ridiculous, especially when starting out.

I agree that 2 hours isn't really that much, but it would depend on the size of the drawing though. If you're copying a whole plate, then 2 hours is very fast, and you're saying that this is the longest you've spent ? You might wanna have some more patience with those :)

[B u r l]

This book sounds like an outdated way of training. I was finding out more about it and read a comment describing its history and how its been used predominantly in France's Ecole des Beaux Arts until it "...fell out of favour when those pesky post impressionists stopped worrying about how accurate their drawing was and started worrying about the expression of their personal vision instead."

It's no more outdated than studying anatomy. By your logic we should not study anatomy, either. The post-impressionism is just another change in philosophy. If your goal is to learn how to master your drawing tools and copy something with pin-point precision, then Bargue studies will help.


if you want to learn to draw an eye correctly, do it by observing and interpreting real life, not by copying exactly another drawing of real life.

You don't get the point. Bargue plates are very clear and simplify the forms that would otherwise be harder to read in life. The smooth / flawless gradations allow for clear interpretation of what's in front of you. These plates don't negate from drawing from life, they are good exercises to take before tackling life. The text in that book is very good.

@the_allejo05, have you been reading the text, also? It does go over how to do these plates. I can't remember if it mentions what materials to use, though.

The huge point about doing these plates is that you do them with exact precision, otherwise there's no real point. Time investment is relative to the objective. You could get more out of one 300 hour drawing than you could 300 1 hour drawings. Quantity doesn't always overpower quality. The plates can take a lot of time to do right, but they'll also build your concentration and patients.

[emily g]

I have done a couple of Bargue copies. I spent 2 months on the first one and about a month on the second. After doing a couple of these, your eye with be HIGHLY trained. You will be able to spot mistakes in your work much easier. Also, you won't be afraid of anything. Taking on a challenge like this makes other drawing tasks seem really easy. I recommend it for anyone who wants to shave a year or two off their training.

You can check out my sketchbook link in my sig for process pics of the copies I did.

[Arshes Nei]

here we go again...

[Craig D]

groan

[nauvice]

Pitchforks and Torches

[emily g]

No one's threatened you with anything, zwarrior. The only person who has censored you is yourself, by deleting all your posts.

[nauvice]

hah my comments being referred to as groaning was a compliment then... I'm just succumbing the inevitable. In any forum, an unfavorable deviant opinion is welcomed with bruised egos getting together to antagonize that person. Im staying out of this lynch mob

[emily g]

I think the "groan" comment was directed to how you reacted to Arshes Nei, not to any of your opinions on the thread topic.

I'm not sure what you want. Do you want to be protected from anyone criticizing what you say? You can express your opinions, but other people are perfectly free to express theirs--even if they disagree with you. Even if a lot of people disagree with you, that is in no way a "lynch mob."

If you're going to express your opinion on a public forum, be prepared that people may disagree with you.


What's that? A disagreement of opinions in this here forum? That's outraggiouuusss
I don't think it's the forum that has a problem with disagreement, I think it's you. You run away at the first sign of opposition.

[Craig D]

My groan was directed primarily at the overall tone of your responses which I thought were narrow minded and put forth in an antagonistic way.

I welcome a diversity of thought, but I would hope that they would be reasoned and well thought out, and would avoid personal attacks against the authors of the book.

[nauvice]

Arshes Nei was referring to a different thread, where I didnt run away, it began as a dicussion, soon people had bruised egos because apparently I have to sugar coat my words or else they're considered personal attacks (Craig D) and it ended in a bitter dispute.

And my reference to pitchforks, torches, and lynch mob is when the "thanks" system in involved in arguments. it makes a simple discussion between two people seem more like a show... a user (a more veteran user usually) says something if otherwise said by me would seem insulting, and gets like 5 other users thanking them for their bickering, like "yeah we support you against that guy". I think it would make anyone feel like they're cornered. so I delete my posts to voluntarily surrender. I'm derailing the thread now anyway. Im done.

[Arshes Nei]

zwarrior, regarding my response, no. See Craig D's post above.

[nauvice]

sorry.

[Elwell]

Hey zwarrior, this guy's pretty smart, maybe you should listen to him...


But if I can give a suggestion... always keep an open mind, inspiration never comes from only one source and you can learn a lot from art outside of your genre...
;)

[alesoun]

Okay. I'm seeing over and over and over again here how it's so bad to copy. Why is that?

When you learn to cook, you follow a recipe. If you're lucky, somebody stands beside you and shows you how.

If you're a bricklayer or a plasterer, you serve an apprenticeship where you're told what to do and what might happen if you don't do it the right way.

Driving lessons? You don't follow rules there to get things right?

Sorry. Just what is so wrong in giving copying the basics a go to experiment? Don't we need to see and try what's gone before so we can build on that?

*sigh*

[nauvice]

i dont think anyone who spoke against this book were against copying in general...


Hey zwarrior, this guy's pretty smart, maybe you should listen to him...

;)

hah

[alesoun]

only against copying accurately, then?

I must have misunderstood. It's late here...

[Ashtonw]

I have done a couple of Bargue copies. I spent 2 months on the first one and about a month on the second. After doing a couple of these, your eye with be HIGHLY trained. You will be able to spot mistakes in your work much easier. Also, you won't be afraid of anything. Taking on a challenge like this makes other drawing tasks seem really easy. I recommend it for anyone who wants to shave a year or two off their training.

You can check out my sketchbook link in my sig for process pics of the copies I did.

Does it have to be a Bargue copy? That book is not cheap, but I'd get it if I was sure it'd do me good.

[Arshes Nei]

If you wait patiently I've seen Amazon selling the book directly for 60 dollars. That's how I got mine. I dunno. Considering the cost of video games that last a few hours, vs the education I got from the book, I'm going with the book.

It's up to you though.

[Ashtonw]

Gee, way to shame me. :P I was going to tell my family to get it for me for christmas, but then Amazon stopped selling it. D: I will probably get it sooner or later though.

[emily g]

Does it have to be a Bargue copy? That book is not cheap, but I'd get it if I was sure it'd do me good.
I also did some copies of Nicolai Fechin and Dean Cornwell. You learn different things from copying different people.

I have scans of 6 Bargue plates that I've uploaded here:
http://www.megaupload.com/?d=26ROD54Y

[Cam Sykes]

HEy I was thinking of buying this book but not sure if it's worth it. I mean I know it's worth it but do you think it'd be better if I bought some casts instead and copied those? I just feel it's weird trying to learn 3D form and value rendering from a 2-dimensional plate. And thinking that perhaps casts are cheaper?
Don't get me wrong I know doing master stuies is really helpful just in regards to bargue it seems a cast might be more helpful? or I suppose it's an example of how one might go about rendering a cast eh?
Oh yeah and thanks emily for the upload.

[Sidharth Chaturvedi]

I also did some copies of Nicolai Fechin and Dean Cornwell. You learn different things from copying different people.

I have scans of 6 Bargue plates that I've uploaded here:
http://www.megaupload.com/?d=26ROD54Y

Thanks for those, Emily!

[emily g]

I just feel it's weird trying to learn 3D form and value rendering from a 2-dimensional plate. And thinking that perhaps casts are cheaper?
Drawing from a 2-D image and drawing from a 3-D cast are two different things and require different ways of processing information. Translating a 3-D object onto a 2-D surface is usually a little more difficult, which is why students usually start with the 2-D copies before moving on to drawing from the cast.

Buying a cast is costly as well, especially if you want one of decent quality.

[Cam Sykes]

Ah thanks Emily, makes more sense now. I think I was answering my own questions heheh.

[smugbug]

Gee, way to shame me. :P I was going to tell my family to get it for me for christmas, but then Amazon stopped selling it. D: I will probably get it sooner or later though.

I had purchased my copy from the Dahesh Museum website (at the time, it was $65, including shipping). They may still have copies - from the looks of it, they still do:

http://www.daheshmuseum.org/museumshop/index.php?productID=285