grr

[AndrewAnimation.com]

i was about to close a deal with a client, after i had put hours of time and effort into hiring a crew to work for me, meeting face to face with the client, and drawing up preliminary concept art, when i get a call from the director's assistant telling me he freaking left the US to find cheaper labor in a different country!! without even telling me first!! what kinda profession doesn't at least get compensation for all the time, effort, work, and drawings i put in for them before they change their minds without even offering to negotiate over the price??

the best i can do is learn from this so a similar situation doesn't arise in the future, but what the heck is the lesson?!

[Red_Rook]

o jesus that really sucks man. Thats aweful. :$

[AndrewAnimation.com]

it says 'andrew' in your sig..u must be talking about me

[Ninjai]

The lesson is to have things drawn up in a contract. Put it in writing. If the job entails lots of setup and work on your part, you need to stress that to the client, and you should get compensated. That should be in your contract.

[AndrewAnimation.com]

exactly, that's the lesson. i had appologized to my crew for my former client's business practices, and here's a copy and paste of what i said to one of em:

Here's the lesson I learned from this though, that would have avoided my unfortunate experience: Sign a contract
ASAP. If I only insisted - more like demanded, in a nice way - that a final
price be negotiated to its end and a contract signed right away, then I and
my former client would have been bound by law to deliver on the goods, or,
in the case that they decide to cancel like they did, we would've still
gotten paid. I'm no lawyer but I imagine that's how it works. It's OK if
you need more time to calculate your pay, and so aren't prepared to
negotiate right on the spot, but then it's crucial that you go home,
calculate it, and contact them again ASAP, like that very day or the next,
by phone if not in person, to officially enter into the negotiating stage,
after which a contract will be signed in person, and a copy given to you.
Oral agreements just don't mean a thing. Trust is impossible in business,
no matter how nice a meeting seems to have gone. If only I knew that
before.. That's my wisdom out of this anyway...
Sorry about everything. I feel bad for letting you down.

[Hei Gwei]

Yo,

Yeah, I've been in similar situations. Some POTENTIAL clients want a lot of work before they sign-on. This is mostly, but not always, bogus. What a client has is an idea. Paying you is how the client invests in the idea. If a client is unwilling to sign a contract and write a check, it is the equivalent of them not truly wanting to invest in their own idea. You don't want to connect to someone unwilling to invest in themselves.

If you know that there is a lot of art that needs to be generated in the preliminary stage - charge them for it AND maintain the rights. Maybe it is not a lot of money, but it needs to be something.

Also, watch this guy and make sure he doesn't use YOUR concepts. Some of these guys use these situations to get their preproduction/design for free and then pay someone else to do the work. So keep an eye out.

Besure you write down these mistakes and go over the list every time you meet with a new client.


Hei

[AndrewAnimation.com]

wow, i have two offers right now that sound like this O.o

OK, so are you saying unpaid "tests" of any kind are wrong?

i could tell the guys currently wanting tests from me that i'd have to charge them and keep the rights, but i imagine it would just eliminate me from the running.. one guy in particular is asking all the artists he's interested in to do unpaid, very quick, simple concepts, basically asking for ideas of our visions of their characters, that they're looking for anything that sparks their interest, that they can bring on multiple artists to handle different aspects, it depends on how they like your take on the characters, and that once they sort through the sketches, they'll get back to you to just talk about them and see what additional ideas you have.

this guy sounds to me like something you described: "What a client has is an idea. Paying you is how the client invests in the idea. If a client is unwilling to sign a contract and write a check, it is the equivalent of them not truly wanting to invest in their own idea. You don't want to connect to someone unwilling to invest in themselves."

so is it wrong of him to ask to dip that deeply into your creativeness without paying you?

[Hei Gwei]

Just make sure that the "Test" isn't going to be more than a day or so of work. The bottom line is that everything you do as a 'commercial' artist needs to be worth your time. You have to balance the payoff against your own investment of time and energy.

So if it's quick concept work, that may be cool, but put your name and © at the bottom of the pages you give him.

Honestly, I wouldn't do more than one or two characters. If they are testing the creativity and skills of the artists that they are trng to choose from, then one drawing can tell them all they need to know - doing much more than that is like giving away ideas for free.

Between a single test drawing and your portfolio, they should be able to decide if they want you or not.

The sad truth is that many clients simply do not know what they are looking for. You are a pro, a specialist - you need to tell them that they need to trust your talents as far as being able to acheive the desired result. Clients who don't trust, micromanage and nit pick and will have you cursing the day you took on the project.

Here's a fun game: ask them to explain what they are going to have to see in order to drop some cash. I bet they don't even have a clear idea of that. According to your description, they want you to give them free ideas so that MAYBE they'll call you to discuss... more ideas. The way this should work is, "We like what you do, we want to contract you to do the work for us." THEN you talk about and develop more ideas. It doesn't even sound like they have a clear grasp on their characters if they need all these different interpretations.

They don't have to write a check right now, but they should be able to explain WHEN they'll write a check. That way you'll know how many more hoops you'll have to jump through and can walk away, if need be, before it gets ugly.

Hei

[AndrewAnimation.com]

ok, sounds fun. i e-mailed them practically your words. this to be exact:

Hello,

I should be able to devote some time and effort for about 1 or 2 quick character sketches that I'll keep the copyright for, but since you're dealing with so many artists, could you explain what you're going to have to see in order to drop some cash? According to your description, you want us to give you free ideas so that MAYBE you'll contact us to discuss... more ideas. The way this should work is, "We like what you do, we want to contract you to do the work for us." THEN I can talk about and develop more ideas. It doesn't even sound like you have a clear grasp on your characters if you need all these different interpretations.

I'm gonna do a couple sketches. When do you want these by? =)

Best Regards,
Andrew

[Hei Gwei]

It'll be interesting to hear what they say. Keep us posted.


Hei

[AndrewAnimation.com]

he said they have general ideas about the characters, but they're trying to leave the door open to more specific ideas that make them more unique, while at the same time, trying to narrow down the list of artists that have responded by using 'a fairly common process' of requesting sample images. he said he's trying to make sure the artist(s) they hire have unique ideas, that they'll negotiate rates with the artists they want to continue working with, the reason they haven't picked someone already is because they have so many qualified ones that they wish they could hire them all, and they're hoping they can have all of them work on more specific parts of the project.

if this job wasn't one of my most favorite things to do, designing characters, i would probably go on to ask him exactly what the hired artist would do, like 4 orthagraphic views they could model from, so i could give him my desired rate from the start, in case we wouldn't be able to come to an agreement on price anyway. instead i think i'll just give him 1 or 2 quick 'unqiue' sketches that i keep the rights for

[Red_Rook]

it says 'andrew' in your sig..u must be talking about me


lol, sry no its andrew jones (android) it became a standing joke in austin, sill thing thats all :bashful: >:D

[Hei Gwei]

Sounds good. Now you can wait and see what happens. Try and have an absolute minimum $ amount when/if they do want to negotiate with you. Have your desired rate and the minimum rate in mind and DO NOT go below the minimum. If they ask why, tell them (nicely) that you are worth it - that your skilz are at a level that demands a certain rate, and that the designs you provide would make THEIR product look incredible - that you WANT to make their project the best one out there, but it's gonna cost them. It's that simple.

You could offer a lower rate but add a percentage of project revenue, but that can get sticky and you'll really need to find a more complex contract or enlist a lawyer.

Good luck! Keep us posted.

Hei

[AndrewAnimation.com]

ok, i'm thinking i'll keep raising my starting price by $5/hr every job (next job = $25/hr), and have that minimum price you mentioned at $5 less per hr (next job minimum = $20/hr) until eventually i'm too expensive to be employed and i can just work on my beloved characters/story

that's good, what you said about the minimum rate. i'll use those exact words in the next applicable situation >: D

and speakin of project revenue--!! i seem to get involved with jobs concerning character designs for games, i should start asking for that! it'll probably add up to a lot more than whatever flat price i would have asked. what's a good amount of royalties for designing every character? like 5%?

[Hei Gwei]

You should get the Graphic Artist Guild Pricing and Ethical Guidlines Go the the guild's website. You can order it from there - or find it in an art store.

It will answer all pricing questions, and give you contract examples. Also, there is the book: The Business Side of Creativity. If this is gonna be your life, you'll need to do the research. A lot of us take the time to master our creative skills, but take no time to learn how to make a serious living at it aka the business side. It's best to lear the easy way (research) rather than the hard way (getting screwed out of thousands of dollars!).

Good luck!

Hei

[AndrewAnimation.com]

that definitely sounds like something i should get.. i'll look into it as soon as i've made some underpaid deadlines.. kidding, hahahaha... thanks for letting me know, i'll check it out when i have time

[AndrewAnimation.com]

wow, amazon has good prices on this stuff when u buy them used. score. i'm getting Graphic Artists Guild Handbook : Pricing & Ethical Guidelines for $15, but I also found more:

Customers who bought this book also bought:

* Graphic Designer's Guide to Pricing, Estimating & Budgeting by Theo Stephan Williams
* Business and Legal Forms for Graphic Designers by Tad Crawford, Eva Doman Bruck
* The Business Side of Creativity: The Complete Guide for Running a Graphic Design or Communications Business by Cameron S. Foote, Mark Bellerose
* Starting Your Career as a Freelance Illustrator or Graphic Designer by Michael Fleishman
* 2004 Artist's & Graphic Designer's Market (Artist's & Graphic Designer's Market, 2004) by Mary Cox, Mona Michael

would u recommend any of those besides Graphic Artists Guild Handbook and The Business Side of Creativity?

[AndrewAnimation.com]

actually those 2 r probably enuff :teeth: heehee. $40 total.. thanks for letting me kno about them! ^_^

[goldenavatar]

I just came across this posting. I'm a bit surprised that you had to find this out in such a painful way. Since you've got the book suggestions, that should cover you for the most part. I'd also suggest taking an art business course, if you didn't taken one before at Pratt or Sheridan. Yea, I checked out the website. You've got alot of stuff in that site, could use some fine tuning as far as content, but all in all good stuff. Best of luck to ya, and I hope that you're able to learn from these things before you get burned by them.

[AndrewAnimation.com]

yea, and i got one of the books so far! i was reading the chapter on how much to charge when a client interrupted ... ^_^

no we didnt have art business courses. good idea though! sure beats that psychology class (yes..thats right...)

what kinda stuff would u recommend as far as my 'content'? u couldnt possibly mean the complete lack of anything not related to human character design, could u?:teeth:

[goldenavatar]

yea, and i got one of the books so far! i was reading the chapter on how much to charge when a client interrupted ... ^_^

no we didnt have art business courses. good idea though! sure beats that psychology class (yes..thats right...)

what kinda stuff would u recommend as far as my 'content'? u couldnt possibly mean the complete lack of anything not related to human character design, could u?:teeth:

Well, for the business classes, I'm sure CUNY (http://www.cuny.edu) offers something decent that's affordable. I know that the Small Business development Center (http://www.nyssbdc.org/centers/centers.cfm?centid=19) over at Lehman College could be a decent place to start with networking and getting at least a base bit of information. It gave me a lot of helpful bits of info to keep in mind when I start up a business for myself. I'd also check out the Small Business Administration (http://www.sba.gov/) to see what good it might be for you.

As far as stuff for the site, I'm still a newb to art myself, so take what I say at arms length. I'm in the process of completing my first art course, which is my first commited investment in my developing drawing skills. I've got friends at varying levels who've been burned in the art biz, some still getting burned, so it makes a guy think ahead, maybe prematurely. As for the site, I'd say ask the various peers in your industry what makes a good website for an animator. I'm sadly not a peer, just an older student. I do see alot of chatter on the topic at CGtalk.com (http://www.cgtalk.com/index.php?s=).

If you get someone asking for specific types of samples, ask them what they felt the site lacked for content to better anticipate what later potential employing parties would like to see. Have a limit, don't do something that requires a serious commitment of time, and keep the best ones around to enhance the website like a portfolio. The resume is pretty lengthy too, with so much information about you up front, but I don't know if that helps in the animation biz. I'm a bit apprehensive about volunteering too much info, but I guess that's me. Now remember, I'm not even at an amatuer skill level yet, so take my input for what it is.

[AndrewAnimation.com]

im probably not up for business classes, but i bought the books 'the business side of creativity' and 'the graphic arts guild's guide to pricing and ethics' or something similar to that. i'm already learning some weird stuff, like that i should be charging MORE than $50/hour.. wouldn't i, like, not find work?

i kind of found out in sheridan what makes a good portfolio for animators..life drawings, animal drawings, drawings from life in general, character designs, layouts, storyboards, actual animation... i received feedback that i had too many life drawings, my animal drawings are ok but not as good as my other stuff, i hate storyboarding, and my demo reel tends to not play on comps very well, or so i hear :teeth:

yea, i dont like projects that require too much time. resume's too lengthy? i thought that was a good thing. y not 'volunteer too much info'?

[Duncan]

Yeah about $50/hr is about the going rate for freelance illustration work. You have to pay the bills, anything less and you wouldn't be able to. I've read through both those books you ordered and found them valuable. Also get the 2005 Artist & Graphic Designers Market. It'll be one of the most valuable ones you get, that's where your money's going to come from. Get it, read through it, highlight it, mark it up, then send out as many samples as you can. Another book that you should get is "Business Forms for Illustrators," by Tad Crawford. This provides all those contracts you have to have signed BEFORE you lift a pencil, along with an explaination on how to use them. I think the Graphic Artist Guild book has contracts but this book has them in a ready to copy format. It's a lot of headaches dealing with the business side, but you are running a business so do it well. Look professional, charge professional rates, conduct business professionally and that's what people will think you are. Hope this helps a little.

[AndrewAnimation.com]

wow, thanks for the wisdom!

sounds like a great book. i've sorta quit the freelance scene, but i'll certainly get that book if i ever return for whatever reason.

[skidfrog]

Hey Andrew

I bet you frequent the AN forums too ?.....( look at Charles' long ago post on free work....he said take it..and don't do it....string em along.....but that was when he was younger and full of beans lol ) anyway...."The Business Side Of Creativity" reminds us all we should never work for free....on spec..whatever they like to call it .

They politely put it that the way we keep costs low is by not wasting time on projects that don't pay . A standard fee for even beginning work is $100 / hr for professionals .

I know myself I've wasted time in first meetings only to find out the budget is $0......but they might promise something later IF things go well .

well...I can develop my OWN stuff for free.and then I'm GAURANTEED the work later if things go well !

I even had one acquaintance takes his signed contract to the bank for a line of credit to pay crew he hired...but then got screwed / his contract was useless unless he wanted to go to court in Germany..which would have cost more than the $40,000 he borrowed .

hang tough man....do good work......until they start lining up to give you money to PLEASE work on their stuff !

I'm 42 and I'm nowhere near that point yet !( but I don't waste time working for free!)

www.dermotwalshe.com www.creativebusiness.com

[AndrewAnimation.com]

exactly...u speak the truth man

it all comes down to your work. i might even be so bold as to say that any artist who isn't too happy with their economic situation has only him/herself to blame.. get better and so will your situation

[Gilead]

Even though the guy bailed on you, you can still send him a bill. No you may not be able to force him to pay it, but he may surprise you. It might even change his mind about outsourcing so dont accompany it with any nasty letters or anything.

Just because you don't have a contract does not neccesarily mean you're screwed. The contract is inteded to to protect both you and the client. If there's no contract you're both vulnerable.

If this company does use your work without paying you, and you own the originals. And if you are confidant that you can demonstrate in court that the images they are using are yours, then use of the work constitutes willfull violation of copywrite which carries statuatory damages of $100,000.00 per image.

The fact that you don't have a written contract does not mean anybody can just use your stuff for anything they want. If they can't document that they paid you for the work or that they had permission to use it without payment then you can still sue them. Usually a polite, but painfully firm letter explaining all this results in a check in the mail without any court costs so give it a shot.

Also if you submit a concept sketch make sure it says that you own the copywrite right accross the middle of the image. Never give up your original work, just a copy. Make sure they understand as politely as possible that if they don't use you for the project, but they use your designs there's gonna be a problem.

good luck and let us know how it works out.

[AndrewAnimation.com]

thanks for your reply

i'm thinking i'm done with these people, as this happened a while ago. i don't really plan to track their project or anything, which would be hard to do anyway, to make sure they're not using my stuff.

of course i'll happily sue them if i were to ever find out it was going on :)