I`m gonna quit art school!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[MuizChulan]

Art is Dead.


It hurts so much to suddenly be hit with the realisation that my Dream,the only thing I am good at, is a load of pretentious, fake,bullshit.


It's all fake.

....


I'll explain.

I attempted to pull myself together. Went back to Art School on Monday, full of hope and determination.

I did so well, and then on Tuesday, we where told to do 2 large pieces (A0) One in the morning, and then another in the afternoon,with a group crit in between.


ALL morning, I drew this stunning massive picture of Naam Siulam Ji
Shaolin Temple
as the project was architecture based.



I hate myself and I hate my work,but even I had to admit that this piece was fucking amazing.

I put everything into it, all my emotion,everything.


Hurt,because I know I'll never live long enough to see it, Joy,because I was doing Art something I supposedly enjoyed,Happiness at drawing something beautifull, Happiness at finally getting my life back together and back on track.

The piece was personal,and beautifull. The best thing I've ever done,The best thing I'll ever do.


Then, the group crit.

I showed my piece with pride, and the tutor said,


''Well. It's ok. But there's no emotion in it, no passion. It seems you've drawn for the sake of drawing and you've put nothing into it.
This afternoon I want you to fling the materials round and really work into the piece. Make it personal,because this is just desolate''.

That stung. But looking at other peoples work, I started to see Art as what it really is: False.

Other peoples work consisted of madly drawn scribbles and paint flicked onto the paper with brushes. All passionately praised for the enthusiasm.

One girl had actually scrawled all over a piece of paper with some charcol and left one small white mark in the middle. She was praised for the passion she put into her work.


I started to get Rage.

{{Mania+Rage=very bad things. Add to this my Obnoxious nature= WoeX2.}}


So in the afternoon, I was given my second piece of paper.

For ten minutes, I scrawled over it with charcol.

THEN

I flicked paint at it.

THEN

I dribbled tippex down it.

THEN

I cut some text from a newspaper, stuck it on,

THEN

I completely covered the text with brown ink,

THEN

I edged the whole thing with blood red ink.

THEN

I read a book for the remaining two hours.


AND

GUESS

WHAT:


End of day group crit, the tutor LOVED that fucking pile of shit SCRIBBLE that took me LESS THAN TEN FUCKING MINUTES TO DO.


She was almost reaching Orgasm, going on about how there was 'so much passion in the piece', and how it had 'such a sense of movement' and how I'd ' really put some emotion into the piece'.....


And I snapped.

How could I tolerate such ridiculous pretentious bullshit?


Art is no longer Art.

Doing a good piece of work is not what people want anymore.

They want MESS and 'uniqueness'.

They want Tracey Emin shitting fucking pissing and cumming on a bed.

They want people cutting cows in half and encasing them in formaheldahyde.

They want dead carcases half peeled and rotting.


They stare at a canvas smeared with shit and awe at it's 'stunning expressionate power'

They gaze at a pile of rotting toast and call it 'a powerfull and metaphorical look at the state of space and emotion'

They admire the blank canvas and spout about it's 'powerfull imagery and savage underlying message'.

And then they dare to call it ART.


Something I took a long time over and that hurt me to do was sneered at.
Something shit which took ten minutes to do, was not even Art,and meant nothing to me, was called fantastic.


What is Art?


There is no such thing.


I left.


I'm not going back.


I've got nothing else.

There's an empty grey space inside me and nothing to fill it.

I can tidy the house and clean and walk and play computer games and excersize and get drunk and never stop moving,never sit still,never allow myself time to stop,or to think, but nothing will ever fill that space.

Whatever distraction, whatever I do,However busy I am and whatever I do to distract, there's this emptiness.
Helpless and empty,with nothing to do.


Art is Dead to me, and I can never go back.


Does anyone understand? Can anyone hear me?
Am I all alone?



:beer: :chug:

[Lightlytoasted]

Finally someone who feels the same as me. I totally agree with you.

[ChenZan]

pshh, quiter...

[Aidan]

Well...that was one teacher?

Can't believe that you give up your whole life because one single idiot has a different meaning about art.

Why do you care so much about her opinion?

There are enough people who think like you and well...it's mainly the younger generation..

/e: And post some art or this is gonna be deleted...

[Myriadian]

Don't blame it on art, blame it on the incompetent tutor. The one thing you've got to remember is that some people can't fully face up to a piece of art; your picture may very well of succeeded his ideals, past what he knew, what he could realise... he was stuck in a mindset, only realising what he, himself, could accomplish.

Art isn't dying. The artists who now venture off into the 'scribbles' and the so called 'Teachers' of Art, are just becoming something that they, themselves, dictate as art. It necessarily isn't. If YOU put passion into your piece, it showed in other ways then just random lines. You expressed yourself differently, and he, or she, couldn't see that.

[JackalAnubis]

dude, I totally feel you. what are school are you going to and excatly what class is it? I have teachers like that and let me tell you what, I could really give a f*ck about what they think. I make art for myself and my own progression and not for the satisfaction of some teacher. I try to work weird projects assignments into something meaningful for me, and it sucks when the teacher doesn't really care about your hard work and direction, but they are just one person. maybe you should take more "illustration" classes and less "fine art" classes. fine art so to speak can be a lot of bullshit. A lot of freaking hot air justyfying someone's crappy abstraction. And while there ARE some really cool abstract artists I'd rather take a rockwell over a pollock any day.

[Jason Manley]

boo hoo hoo

why dont you make some art about it.

thicken your skin mr sensitive.

[mephisto]

Art isnt art until it makes you happy. Thats all that matters. You will come across many pretentious teachers who know nothing but their small opinion. All that matters is that you do art for you. Its not for that dumbass who can only recognize expression when its splattered on in an undisciplined, unpracticed mess. No matter how good you get, people will find ways in their small and limited mind to not respect you, to tear your work apart. On the other hand though, it needs to be your goal to be able to accept criticism without ego. I know the exact feeling your talking about, when someone crits your work, but if you actually want to improve, you need to be able to accept all criticsim constructively. If you do, it will make you better. Right now its just makeing you mad and discouraged. Think about it objectively: as an artist I cut down trees in order to "express" myself. Pretty fukn selfish if you ask me. Its also not much different than whiping your ass if you look at the grand scheme of things. I do whatever the hell I want when it comes to art. Fuk anyone that says different.

[MuizChulan]

Originally posted by Aidan

Why do you care so much about her opinion?

There are enough people who think like you and well...it's mainly the younger generation..

/e: And post some art or this is gonna be deleted... http://www.geocities.com/muizonline/beckam.txt

[tolin]

makes me glad to be living in new mexico. (well... not Santa Fe) but sounds like you are looking fo love in all the wrong places. (also sounds like you did do that second piece with a little emotion) anyway, i feel you, but don't give up. Cuz if you are working pro you are meeting deadlines and drawing what you are told to. Suck it up. You sound like a jilted artist who paints the canvas white and calls it art.

[Ra Havok]

EMO!

Listen, fruit-cake, there are a lot of people with their own opinions out there. Your tutor -most tutors- have a narrow vision of what's great . Heck, almost everyone, because art is a personal experience. You too.
Fact: with abstract art there is often a fine line between crap and actual art. A lot of 'experts' can't even tell what that line is.

But , what I wanted to say is: If this makes you wanna quit, I think you should pursue another career. Because you'll get a lot of critique - a lot of which you'll feel is wrong. So deal with it.

[Aidan]

And for the motivation-thing:

That portrait is dope.

[mcotie]

. <---- that period is actually the smallest violin in the world playing "my heart bleeds for you."

[JoshuaTheJames]

I care more about making art than arguing with fools whether it is art or not....

.................................................. .....................................

Just because you pour all your emotions into a piece, that does not mean the piece will convey those emotions. Look at Colour Field paintings... Those guys are full of angst, but NO ONe will ever know just because they glazed some red on a canvas. You have to consciously Build a composition in a certain way to gain a certain emotion... (I know some [so called]Fine Arts Chumps that would argue that :bash: )

Anyhoo,

If you love art you wouldn't dare abandon it.

If you do then of course you are not an aritst and there is no need to fret.

Just go buy a copy of Star Wars Galaxies and become a fat, greezy man...That's what I'd do!

-Joshua

[JoshuaTheJames]

Art is Dead to me, and I can never go back.

This is SO F#$king LAME!!!

If that is true then get the HELL off this board...

If you not, Buck Up.. and go buy a new sketchbook. That always makes me happy...heh.

-Joshau

[Erik]

Try to sell the teacher the pile of shit you created and make a buck out of it.

Then go draw something you like.

There are other types of art schools you know...

[dfacto]

1) SCHOOL IS BULLSHIT. It teaches you information, but everything else should be ignored wholeheartedly. If you teacher wants fake BS, then shove a paint tube up his ass and draw what you like anyway. You're not there to really learn, if you can already do amazing stuff, you are there for a diploma and a furtherment of your career opportunities. Get the diploma and get out.

2) Tell your teacher that if you wanted to make art that was full of emotion you would go be an art-bum like picasso. But you're not are you? You're normal and want to get a job in an industry where rendering and imagination is more important that ladeling fake emotion onto a canvas.

3)Next time your teacher want you to put more emotion, draw some sloppy sketch where you are strangling them brutally while shouting at them to get off their artsy fartsy fucking high horse.

4) SUCK...IT...UP

5)Don't let go of your dream if you got one bad critique from an artsy fartsy type. That is really weak man, just weak. Get thee a thicker skin.

6)Next time your teacher praises shit like that do this:

-inform them of how long it took.
-inform them that it was easy as pie to achieve
-inform them that there was no actual emotion put into it and that it was all done so that they could have their fake orgasm infront of you and embarass themselves with their ignorance.
-tell them that that artwork will NOT get you hired by any serious company
-tell them that they should not critique you on anything but technique from that point onwards, as you are uninterested.

If they have a problem with this, then tell them to stick it up their rear entry and go to another art school.

and stop whining, art is not dead, its alive, just as an underground thing. Mainstream media and critics cover nothing but the artsy fartsy crap. YOu have to go past that to places like this and to the actualy serious art industry to see real art. Sure it may be mostly chicks with guns and no shirts, but at least it is well rendered and evokes real emotion.

[bRyaN]

Fuck your teacher, and fuck the angsty posers in your fucking class....

Get the hell out of fine art class, cause it's all shit...take meaningfull ilustration, composition, and anatmoy classes, by a sketchbook and quit the bitchin....

Like everyone else said, BUCK THE FUCK UP and do what you love to do....

oh and i get a red x

BTW, i don't know if you've noticed but their a ton of talented artist on this website that could draw circles around your "tutor" and they are getting paid for it...you're teacher is just jealous that she couldn't compose something so technically well crafted of her own, so she shits in everybody else's cereal who is "better" than her....

[bRyaN]

Just saw the picture you posted, and that what i'm talkin about....

nice pen rendering...

[Gr8t100]

Thats the wonderful thing about art, there is no right or wrong, there is no step-by-step process, it's what you make of it.

No offense but if you can't hack what one person tells you, maybe you need to think of why that is. Not everyone in the world is going to love your work. Not everyone is going to see what you see. It's a fact.

And maybe the instructor liked your 2nd piece much more is beause you had that fire in your belly, that rage inside of you.

If you quit art, go ahead. I may not have understood everything you had posted, but I gave my opinion on it, take it for what it's worth. Do as you please.

[::EPIC::]

The sad fact with teachers and or students, is understanding the background. Sounds like you were placed in completely the wrong study and it's ripping you up. That's fine, take the course if you feel it will broaden your horizons but if it's not taking you in the right direction....the direction you WANT your art to take, hit the road...

Anyways your going to find ALOT of people who sill stick in their own little world of knowledge and never peek out from that. That is where the trouble comes from beacuse IF they knew anything, they would understand that Art is somthing that grows and changes for better or for worse. Movements change and perspective alters.. and this is how we have so many genres out there. If your teacher is talking to you in ONLY an abstract manner...tell him that and ask again for an opinion... or keep your work the same and get another word from another professer in your school..

Oh just a thought if your pulling yourself out of school...do it before a refund could be refused. So you can put your money in a better school...

[J Bradford]

:yawns:

Pfssh, right. What do you think people, give this guy a week? month? before he goes back..

Lighten up man. go throw a bucket of paint on you're tutor; theres some art with expression.

[::EPIC::]

day 1= :) day 2= :eek: day 3= :ep:

[XaXona]

Some times I feel like I'm no good and that I'm just wasting my time but then I realise that I don't know anything else. I love art no matter what anyone says. I have to do it, i need it to live. Art is my life and I must succeed. If you truly love art then you will realize this and come back to it with your tail between your legs, realizing that it is also YOUr life and you need it to live.

[tyboogie]

MUIZ--maybe try DRAMA:rolleyes:

[Blackwell]

BWAHAHAHA -- funny, tyboogie!

Hey Muiz, ever hear the saying, "Those who can, do....those who can't teach."? Your tutor's art knowledge and expertize is probably very narrow - why don't you get some other peoples opinions, instead of throwing in the towel based on ONE whole review???!?!?

Also, smoke a bowl. You'll relax a bit.

[stalecracker]

SO...

Why don't you cry about it?

WELCOME to the real world, Shirley.

[Killer Napkins]

Ra Havok is my idol!!.. but anyhooo... just start drawin again dont care what others say unless it helps... haha i dont care if anyone thinks my art is bad (which it aint great).. haah

[Redder]

Boohoo cry me a river! There are a lot of famous artists that failed before they became famous. Everyone has their hardships in art. You just don't give up. So shutup and get over it you got talent.

[DragonGX]

I completely understand... I hate all the bullshit art out there and all the pretentious peopel who think that it is great art..

People say art is subjective, but it isn't there is such a thing as good and bad art...

[RefrigeratorCo]

You should take a dump on a convas and give it to your teacher.

[dfacto]

Hitler was an art student before he pussied out and went political cause he didn't get accepted to art school. Sissy.

[Giottoface]

MuizChulan:

So you goto art school? are all of your classes like this?

I also goto art school... some teachers are lame, and assign lame projects. I just have to figure out what they want and do it... What do you care if you only had to spend 10 minutes on an assignment? Sounds like an easy grade.

As much as I hate pretentious bitch "artists" like your tutor seems to be, at least you learned a valuable skill in this class... to learn what the client wants, and do it. its not a gallery piece man, suck it up.

i know you were worked up for your original post, but i agree with the people who have previously said that if this makes you want to quit art... then just quit. its not going to get any better.

i'm sure you now realize its just the way of an artist. not everyone is going to want to suck your dick after seeing one of your pieces.

you are a good artist, keep it up, man. just think how you can laugh at your tutor once you're an established artist, and the tutor is still telling kids to piss in a painted paper bag.

[molemansd7]

While I feel the same as many people here, I do find it ironic that when he made the second image, he was really flaming mad, and that emotion was conveyed in the piece. So I think it probably had more emotion in it than the first, although you didnt like it as much. Im not saying that makes a better pic...I like realism much better than any art. Just a little irony I picked up on. But stick with it man. I find I disagree with many of my teachers in school. I finally found one here for my life drawing class that tells us all (the people in my class) that we suck, and need to get better. That is kinda refreshing. So just stick with it. Its only one person's opinion. You'll find people, the mass of people, the ones that will hire you, will appreciate are created with both emotion, and care...ie nicely rendered. Keep with it. Don't abandon it. It'll get better.

[Kirt]

Really, it sounds like you have issues with self-esteem. (http://www.conceptart.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=18071) Dying for some attention lately? I don't know why I'm bothering with this but ...

Your instructor was probably right and "wow!" actually evoked enough emotion in you to produce what he/she was looking for. Sounds like a good art instructor if you ask me.

The important thing to remember here is that time doesn't matter in the creation of art. 5 minutes or 5 years ... what's the difference when either evoke emotions in the viewer? Also, reguardless of what you think of your own work, if someone else is impressed by your 'bowel movements on canvas' then it is art to them.

Art is only absolute to the artist, but completely subjective to the viewer. You can't make the viewer see your passion just because you felt it when creating the piece. It's entirely up to them whether they experience anything at all when viewing your work.

The best you can do is put it out there for feedback and guage the opinions of others. If they react strongly to it ... it's art. If you get, "eh." ... then try something else.

I'm curious ... can you post the two images?

[mess]

It sounds like you are studying in a liberal arts program. You may want to consider a school with a more academic approach to drawing and painting.

[epiphany]

art is subjective.......

[Fozzybar]

There is no emotion in your post...













...now you have another emptiness in yourself (but maybe i am just one stupid person, you don't give a shit about his opinion...?)

[magira]

Originally posted by DragonGX
People say art is subjective, but it isn't there is such a thing as good and bad art...

Thats perfect. I've found some pictures and im not sure if they are good art or bad art - would you mind sendig me that list art to me, so I can check it?

:rolleyes:

[DragonGX]

Originally posted by magira


Thats perfect. I've found some pictures and im not sure if they are good art or bad art - would you mind sendig me that list art to me, so I can check it?

:rolleyes:


Go check out Deviant Art.. .You'll be able to find plenty examples of both.

[DragonGX]

If art is subjective, then why do they even bother grading art students?

I should be able to go to Art Center and pass with flying colors. I would jsut haev a different "style" than the other artists...

:rolleyes:

Give me a fucking break.

[dfacto]

BAD ART:
http://starmen.net/contests/aoe/six/NickCazBadArt.JPG

GOOD ART:
http://www.ryanchurch.com/images/sw_ep2/pam010.jpg

GET IT NOW?

jeez, don't tel me you can't understand that there are such things as good and bad. Just like there are good and bad cars. Some are shitty Eastern European pieces, and others are fine specimens of German engineering. Thats' why people pay and arm and a leg for a Mercedes, but don't even look at a Yugo.

You won't see anyone paying for my artwork, but people sure as hell pay for Feng Zhu and others. Why? Because they are good.

[Fozzybar]

dfacto, how about grey?

You posted black and white...

[dfacto]

You mean grey as in the color, or gray as in the middleground between shitty and awesome?

[magira]

There even isn't such a thing, as "a good car" or "a bad car".


People that are hiring feng aren't hiring you because you don't meet their expectations of what they want and need.
Thats why. For a little studio without a big budget - perhaps you are the artist that fits best / are the good artist.

[dfacto]

True, there are varying shades of gray in between, but there are absolutes.

[Lono]

i dont think so... i think there is usually a consensus which gives the illusion of absolutes.. but quality is ultimately relative.

-Lono

[dfacto]

So is time Lono, but at some point you have to ignore relativity. I don't care that some 5 year old thinks some crappy painting is fine art, his opinion is wrong, because I say it is, and because many other say that as well. When you have a majority of people deciding that this or that IS good, and that this or that IS bad, then you have to accept it as an absolute. Like with fashion. I do not dress fashionably, and I admit that I am fashion unconscious and fashion retarded, but the thing is that I don't care. So there are ways to work around the absolutes, or the relative absolutes (if you want to go there). Sure opinion varies, and beauty is in the eye of the beholder, but based on general consensus, such things as good and bad do exist. As I said: Mercedes = world renowned for quality = GOOD. Yugo, practically unknown shitty Yugoslavian car that nobody cares about = BAD. Just like with movies too. Good movies succeed (good does not necessarily mean deep at this point, depends on target audience as well), Bad movies bomb. Its simple.

[Lono]

dfacto: im sorry but thats not an acceptable answer. you think the consensus or the majority defines quality?? thats absurd.. youve never felt intense emotions from a piece of art or music or a movie and for some reason NO ONE ELSE sees it the same way you do and nothing you say can properly communicate how the piece of art makes you feel,, and nothing you say can make them see it the same way? the majority doesnt see it even.. does this make it bad? it may be a public failure,, but that does not mean its bad.. maby its ahead of its time? maby it was a message from the artist with the specific intentions of reaching a very perceptive and select few who would be able to identify with the art? consensus does NOT define quality. period.. how many wonderful movies go straight to video? how many incredable artists go unoticed? how many mindblowingly origional and talented bands fall emediately into oblivian apon departure?? the answer is,,, PLENTY..


saying something is bad because "you and or the majority say it is" is intensly naieve.. hmmmm lets consider all of the times throughout history that the majority has agreed apon something,, a "good idea" maby,, and then later come to seriously regret the collective lack of sense and good ol perspective..

-Lono




-Lono

[wassermelone]

When you have a majority of people deciding that this or that IS good, and that this or that IS bad, then you have to accept it as an absolute.
Wait... everyone has to agree to whatever the majority believes?

If that was true... well we would all believe silly things like "the world is flat".

-toasty =|

[::EPIC::]

Lono good points made :chug:

(as an aside defacto , LADA = Best car line PERIOD!)

[XaXona]

I agree with Lono too.

And good point Toaster, about the world being flat. We would also still think that the Earth was the center of the universe. ^^;

dfacto, your pretty silly to think that if you say so then it is good or bad art...

[dfacto]

Hehe, school time now, but verbal lambasting shall insue when I get back.

[Sammy]

When times get tough, the tough get drawing

[Skank]

sammy gets a cookie

[Jaku]

I agree with LONO, there are only YOUR good or bads it´s all relative.


You won't see anyone paying for my artwork, but people sure as hell pay for Feng Zhu and others. Why? Because they are good.

And i don´t agree with this.
They´re paid because they´re able to do what they´re asked to do (excuse my english): visualize others ideas clear and quick and you´re not able to do this, as i´m not able to do.

Just be yourself, do what you think is good and become good at it.

[MuizChulan]

Shit,I`m a looser.

I want to die in the coolest way possible.

I was thinking of a gun-battle with the police after robing a bank.

If I succed and escapes,I will give the money to the poor.

Anyway,I thank you friends,for giving me a good talk.
I will miss this conversation (The last samurai??)

Anyway,I think I want to travel to the middle east,see what`s really happening,and chill up.

After that,I`m gonna sign up for an illustration course.
I did`nt sign up for this fine art shit.

But I do respect some fine art artists.

I think art is not subjective.It is the human that is,like,different from one and another.

So,there`s a good art,and there`s a bad art.

Man,I really have trouble understanding this subjective shit.
It`s hard to explain.

I think it got something to do with advertising and marketing,how we sell the product and also the presentation,how we bullshit about the product.

Again,thank you.I really appreciate all of the comebacks.





:chug:

[magira]

If you agree that all humans are different from one another - how can you not agree that art is too.
Every art is made from human ( or animal ;°) hands.

Every art is seen from different eyes..
and every art is interpretated by different brains.



and to the die thing:
Why do you think dieing for a thing is better than living for a thing? Dieing is much easier.

[MuizChulan]

Originally posted by magira
If you agree that all humans are different from one another - how can you not agree that art is too.
Every art is made from human ( or animal ;°) hands.

Every art is seen from different eyes..
and every art is interpretated by different brains.



and to the die thing:
Why do you think dieing for a thing is better than living for a thing? Dieing is much easier.

GOOD points Austrian,I will now give you my cheese cake.

:beer:

[XaXona]

Originally posted by dfacto
Hehe, school time now, but verbal lambasting shall insue when I get back.

This should be interesting... I'm sure I'll get a good laugh out of it.

[AnarchyAo2]

Yeah, I know what you mean. Art isn't dead. Though, you said that you put alot of emotion into the picture with the temple, but did you not put more emotion into the 2nd? Think about it, you were really pissed when you made the 2nd one. I cannot judge the critics that are in your group. I mean, theres some people who know abstract art or nonobjective art, and theres other people who think if they don't understand it, its good. You know what I mean? But, thats why I try not to take people critques too literally. Remember, their people too, their opinions are just as valid as yours is. Do not let them decide your future.

In this day and age in art, most people think that stupid shit is art. Very well rendered art isn't apprecated by normal folks anymore. Mainly just by artists. Anyone can see a picture of a river, or a famous person, or the Washington monument in a photograph. Its the closet thing to being there. So why care about a silly artist's drawing of a river, or a famous person, or the Washing monument? We can all answer that because we know the skill, effort and emotion put into that picture. Other people don't see that and their so damn into themselves that they don't take the time to reconise, to look at their bag of Cheetos and think "Wow, someone drew that."

[dfacto]

Man, LAN server was on the fritz today so the lambasting had to wait until it came on recently. Though actually I don't think I will lambaste that much. The point I made was incomplete and leaves out the other half, which would be what Lono is puching for. But here is the whole thing in a nutshell, though I am sure I will leave something out once again.

There are no absolutes with opinion, only relative absolutes based on majority rules. These can be seen from the popularity of a certain musical style, to the success of a certain movie, to what people see as good art. Whatever you do this aspect cannot be ignored. Morals are the strongest example of this. Morals are an opinion as to how people should act and what is right and wrong. There are a general set of morals that are accepted by most people, and this dictates societal behaviour. Murder is wrong in pretty much any place you go, and this is because of majority opinion. Therefore relative absolutes do exist, they ARE important, and they can and do overpower personal opinion frequently. Murderers go to jail. Their personal opinion may be that they are in the right, but ultimately it is the majority opinion that decides. (If you disagree with me on this, then I have nothing to say to you)

That being said, the other half which I failed to mention is Lono's standpoint; that personal opinion is important. Of course this is true, because we all have our personal opinions and most of use hold to them quite strongly. I should know as I am stubborn as a mule until I am proven definitively wrong. However, this is just half the story, as majority opinion infringes on personal opinion. There are many cases of this happeneing throughout history, such as Martin Luther, for one. He had an opinion, and the majority didn't hold to it. He did manage to convert others to his opinion, but the majority remained, and that's why we have Catholic and Protestant today, instead of just Catholic or just Protestant (btw, nobody start discussing this as I use it only as an example and do not intend to start religious flame wars). So while personal opinion can be powerful and become a (relative) majority opinion, majority opinion is powerful as well. Two halves of one whole, and both have to be taken into account.

Also I would like to point out that hard facts will ALWAYS invalidate an opinion, no matter how many people believe it. For this reason it is a bit faulty to use the example of people believing that the earth was flat as a counter argument to the majority opinion argument. They were factually wrong, so there was no room for opinion. Opinion can only be valid when it is about something that has at least partial room for personal belief, and is not entirely mapped out by fact already. That is why we cannot have opinions about where Hydrogen should be on the periodic table, but we can have an opinion about what clothing is the most fashionable.

And a response to Jaku's quote:


And i don´t agree with this.
They´re paid because they´re able to do what they´re asked to do (excuse my english): visualize others ideas clear and quick and you´re not able to do this, as i´m not able to do.


Um...Doesn't that make them better then? They have the skill to do what I can't which makes them better at art than me. If you see it as blakc and white you can say me = bad, them = good. While its not that simple, you HAVE to agree that they are better than me by majority standards. Standards that are based on facts, facts like that they can draw anatomy more accurately, and render more realistically. These facts help to support the opinion that they are better than me. So in end effect, you are wrong. And don't say that you like my art better than Feng's or Ryan Church's or C Mullinss or Anry's or any other famous pro artist's out there.

*DISCLAIMER* I am sure I missed something in there, that was important, but I guess people will pick up on that sonner or later and I can get to explain myself on the vormentioned missed points. I would also lik eto say that ultimately whether you believe what I wrote or not is also a matter of opinion. haha, irony at work all around us!

Furthermore, I would like to say that I LOVE these sorts of discussion. Free will, which this ties into, is a very cool subject, and I love discussing it at any time. If any of you see me on IRC, feel free to bring it up so we can have a little debate.

[Imp Head]

after robing a bank.

I'm not sure this is entirely illegal. In fact I think it falls under the heading "performance art" or at least something akin to Christo's work.

But if, as you stated earlier, "art is dead" then I think "robing a bank" in the name of art would be moot... But that's just me.

[Giottoface]

Originally posted by dfacto
Free will, which this ties into, is a very cool subject, and I love discussing it at any time. If any of you see me on IRC, feel free to bring it up so we can have a little debate.

so from your posts, i would say that you are against free will? your arguments are all over the place. you say you are so stubborn to believe in what you personally believe in, until you are factually proven wrong... and you also say that whatever the majority thinks makes it true?

The internet movie database reports Titanic as being the highest grossing movies at the US box office of all time. that might be a little outdated, or maybe not... but do you now agree that that was the greatest movie ever? it even won all those awards, but i'll tell you this, that movie fucking sucked. am i wrong?

and let me say, if i ever was given a mercedes, i'd sell that shit, and buy a toyota or something.

[::EPIC::]

oh common you'd cruse with it first :D

[dfacto]

so from your posts, i would say that you are against free will? your arguments are all over the place. you say you are so stubborn to believe in what you personally believe in, until you are factually proven wrong... and you also say that whatever the majority thinks makes it true?

The internet movie database reports Titanic as being the highest grossing movies at the US box office of all time. that might be a little outdated, or maybe not... but do you now agree that that was the greatest movie ever? it even won all those awards, but i'll tell you this, that movie fucking sucked. am i wrong?

and let me say, if i ever was given a mercedes, i'd sell that shit, and buy a toyota or something.

See, Giotto, you make the mistake I make a lot. You over generalize. Just because I think that majority opinion can overpower personal opinion, doesn' mean that I am against free will. I simply ealize that it does not always present itself as an opportunity, or that it can be curtailed by other things, like...you guessed it..majority opinion!

I also never said that what the majority thinks makes it true. It is only relatively true based on the strength in numbers theory. However this does not apply to cases where a fact is established, such as Titanic. It has been scientifically proven that Titanic sucks ass, therfore the majority could not have been right!:p

ok, ok, just a joke, but the reason TItanic got so much cash was not because it was a good movie. It was because leonardo di caprio fangirls flocked to the movie 6 times over to see it and made it a huge winner. It got the academy awards because it made so much cash and because the majority opinion (IE, the little girls who saw it) would have killed everyone in the academy if it hadn't won. But those little girls who raved and screamed and made it a success were relatively right weren't they. They believed it was a good film and they are right in their own way, just like I am correct (for myself at least) in all of my opinions. That is also why I am all over the place on the topic. Its hard, if not impossible to pin down, and the topic varies drastically based on what the specifics are.

You wanna take a toyota,you do that. But I'll take the mclaren. (secret option #3)

[Giottoface]

Ok, well now you are jsut making up statistics to support an argument that I am not even sure of. I know plenty of people who saw Titanic, and liked it. They were not leo fangirls, and even if they were, their opinions aren't valid just becasue you say so?

Why did Dances with wolves win so many oscars then? Kevin Costner fanboys? I personally thought that movie sucked. But the majority would apparently say otherwise. So that means... its... relatively true? based on the strength in numbers theory? or something?

and epic is right, i would cruise with my mercedes first.

[Bradart]

That teacher was a moron. Don't worry about wha is said by an "art teacher". art cannot be taught. Art is only learned. Nobody judges art. Art is what that artist makes, no what the viewer sees.

[jook]

It was said before in this thread I think but Mabey the teacher knew more than what most of you are saying.

I'm sure the teacher realized that your first piece was technically a very nice piece. She probably just wanted to see you branch into a new direction. It doesnt hurt to try new things, especially if it makes your client (teacher) happy. I'd be willing to bet that she told you these things to actually get an emotion out of you. The emotion of anger and tension.

A lot of learning in school is not only doing the assignments but figuring out why they were assigned...

oh yeah, I liked both Titanic and Dances With Wolves...

[AnarchyAo2]

"Art is only learned. Nobody judges art. Art is what that artist makes, no what the viewer sees."

Eh...art can be taught. Why do you think people go to "art schools"?

And art is what the viewer sees. If the viewer sees art, then its art.

[Snowball]

I find it very interesting that a "banned" user has his thread continually at the top of the list due to people still commenting lol. Not that I could care, just pointing it out :p