SAGIR's Perspective, Composition and Anatomy.

[SAGIR]

OK guys, I will start by saying that I have never mentored on line before, hence, It will be a little more difficult for me than tutoring students face to face. Second, as you know, I am not a professional teacher, nor a professional painter or illustrator - yet. This means you are welcome, I should even say it’s your duty, to question everything we’ll be discussing here, we all will benefit from this.
One more thing, my english is ok but I’m not a native speaker, feel free to correct my mistakes or ignore them.

Having that said ....
Welcome to my Perspective Mentoring thread otherwise known as....
HELLLLLLL!!!!! just kidding.

Participants:
Novbert
Abichai
Neondevil

Basic Principles of Perspective.

Spatial awareness - I don’t have a scientific name for this one so I made this up. What it basically means is always being aware the viewer’s location in the scene. In order to produce a correct perspective sketch you have to decide the viewer’s standing point (distance from buildings) the height of the eye (this determines the horizon line) and the direction of my line of sight (perpendicular to a certain surface or parallel to it).In my head- I always have the Image of the environment I’m painting in ‘top’ view. I recommend you to do a small sketch - a plan of the environment (including the viewer’s location) before you start drawing. This will also give you the understanding about which lines are parallel to each other so you’d know how to deal with it.
Horizon line - The location of the horizon line in the picture is determined by the height of the viewer’s eyes. That means if you place it really low - you’ll be looking at the scene from ant’s point of view. Place it close to the frame’s top and you’ll get a feeling you are flying above the scene. Of course, when you shift the horizon’s height the appearance of the whole scene changes and not just the line itself. That’s because the horizon line is where the vanishing points located. I’ll get to it next. Here’s an example:

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One important thing to understand, think about the line of horizon as a section (side view) of a plane parallel to the ground and located above it as hight as the viewers eyes. Wherever the horizon intersects a tree or a building it intersects all of them in the same height (as long as they are all located on the same surface). Illustration: 


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Vanishing point - This is an Important one: All lines which are parallel in reality, will meet in one vanishing point, which is located on the horizon line. Here’s a picture of a road to illustrate this. The two white lines are parallel in reality and that’s why the go to the same vanishing point on the horizon.

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Let’s say we’d like to add a building next to this road. some lines on this building will be parallel to the white lines, hence, will go to same vanishing point as the white ones.

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Sight cone - Humans are not flies. we don’t see 180 degrees. Our cone of sight is approximately 35 degrees in diameter. That is something to take into consideration when thinking how much of the environment can co inside our frame. Following the rules of perspective we can get away with painting much more than 35 degrees but don’t stretch it too much. A panoramic view with only one or two vanishing points will look skewed.

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ONE and TWO POINT PERSPECTIVE.

Remember I said it is important to be aware of the viewers line of sight direction? Well imagine that you stand in front of a large cube (building). If your line of sight is perpendicular to the direction of one of his faces (parallel to the other) , this face won’t be affected (skewed) = the edges that surround this face don’t go to the vanishing point. Only the faces that are parallel to the viewers line of sight will be skewed to the vanishing point. This case is called ONE point perspective (we need only one point) or FRONTAL perspective (half of the faces are facing us directly)

The other common cases is the TWO POINT perspective. This is used when the viewer is looking at the cube from a corner (neither face is parallel or perpendicular to our line of sight) In this case we will need two vanishing points, because we have two groups of edges parallel to each other, each group with its own vanishing point.

IMPORTANT: The vertical lines are not effected by the perspective in ONE and TWO point perspectives. They change their length (depending on distance from viewer) but always stay vertical!
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I could go much longer about the rules but I hope we will polish those rules through the exercises.

1st Exercise:
I'd like you to produce a single point perspective. Start with simple cube practicing and maybe get to the interior of a room with simple angular objects in it. Don't mess with round and organic shapes for the time being.
Please follow the principles. Determine the horizon line and vanishing point. Add a little plan of the room with the viewers location and line of sight. you can use the ruler but don't erase the guidelines, I'd like to see the process. We won't deal with composition yet but try to make it a nice image as well and somewhat challenging for you.

The next Illustration by Robert. S. Oliver explains pretty well all the above principles regarding the ONE point perspective.

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Always, First determine the horizon line (viewers hight)

Here are some Inspirational images of one point persp.
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From R.S. Oliver's 'The Complete Sketch', I'm especially fond of his style.
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Ones you know your perspective, even the quickest sketch is enough to portray the idea.
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Three more of Oliver's two make things clearer about one point persp.

I understand that perspective is complicated to begin with. So don't be shy to post questions and I will do my best to clarify the issue.
Also feel free to post works other than the exercises to get some perspective critique.
I'll try to comment as much as I can but large posts like this one do take a lot of time so I'll need more time to work on them.

IMPORTANT : Comment on each other's works. Not for each others sake, but for your own. Being able to see that something is not right with a picture and better yet to see what it is - is a very good practice.

HUMAN ANATOMY

Initially I thought that we should just practice copying different parts of body to better understand it. However, I've noticed that you do it in your sketchbooks, and hopefully will continue doing, regardless to this mentoring session, plus, you don't need me for doing that. I have noticed that you guys (and me) have more difficulties when it comes to painting people without references. So how 'bout we'll try some poses without references?
You can and should use references for various body parts but I'd like you to compose the pose yourself and not copy it.

1st Exercise:

Man bending over to pick up a coin from the floor. Front view and side view.

(You are welcome to offer other methods of anatomy practice if you have ideas)

As said, you can post your anatomy paintings, other than the exercises to get crits from me and each other.

I think this will do for the first post. there's no due date for the exercises, It's basically until I will see that the basic knowledge is absorbed or until I have time to edit the next lesson. Let's roll!

[Neondevil]

Did you want us to post as we progress on them or just finished ones?


Also how finished did you want them? Just a line drawing, shading etc?

[SAGIR]

Line drawings will do just fine. There are some perspective rules for painting shadows with which we will deal further down the thread.

I don't think that for now there's no need to post the WIP. As I mentioned, don't erase the guidelines and it will be enough for me to understand how you worked.

[lilou]

wow that was a good introduction to what perspective means and how it has to be build... thank you!!!

but I really would like to know what is a three point-perspective and how do I have to build it.... mind to show me that?

thanks again :)

[Novbert]

I was hesitating whether I should post every drawing as soon as I made them, and eventually I decided I should :). (Just tell me if it's disturbing for anybody and I'll send the later assignment drawings in one post) Actually I'm kinda excited with this human anatomy assignment - I have barely tried to draw any human figures without reference so far.
So here is the first part of the human anatomy assignment, the sideview.

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It wasn't too easy (front view will be even harder, yes I know :)) and I kept the shading dirty, 'cause my knowledge about muscles is a little ... superficial - and that knowledge would be essential to make the shading more detailed imho. (I haven't used any ref or anatomy material during the drawing process - I wanted to test what I can do without them.)
Anyway, here are the WIP images:

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Comments and crits are welcome.
I'll send the other view and the persp study later this week.

[SAGIR]

lilou - Composing a three point perspective is not that simple. It will take some time to put together an appropriate explanation. This will happen when me and the guys participating this mentoring thread' will get to this topic. Meanwhile, I think you can google for it and find some proper info.

Novbert - I don't see why posting as many as you want should disturb anyone. I will comment whenever I'm available and meanwhile, you might just earn a comment from someone else.

I'm really glad to see all your reference drawing paying off in this exercise. It looks good on first sight which is always important.
About the shading, I think it is better to leave those aside. This shading blurs some of the anatomical information we are trying to learn (and also hides your mistakes). Leave it at the line level, the third one out of your thumbnail process is perfect. And now, some critique:

The most noticeable mistake in your figure is the long arm, too long. Notice that the lower half of his arm is almost as long as his shin. In reality - it is more like two thirds of the shin. Now, for him to reach the floor with a normal size arm he would need to bend down a bit more, (it is all a chain reaction when it comes to painting poses) meaning, you have to lower his shoulders and the highest point in this figure will be closer to his behind rather than the mid point of his arched back.

His left hand is for some reason thiner then his right. Perspective almost doesn't play a role at this distance.

Hands (including palms and fingers) are an important part of the body, I'd say it is the most expressive organ after the eyes. I suggest you to practice it as well and not neglect it. Painting fingers picking a coin from the floor is maybe difficult but surely is a good practice.

My last crit for this piece will be about his legs, The position you painted them is possible (I presume that a woman with a really tight and long skirt would bend this way) but it is not natural, since it is hard for one to balance him self while bending with his knees touching each other. Try bending yourself, you'll find that even when you place your feet next to each other, your knees would move sideways (outward) as you bend. This is something you need to indicate when drawing the knees and I actually thing it will look more natural if the knee overlaps the elbow and not the other way around. Since our knees are moving outward it is also not logical that we don't see the other leg at all (They don't overlap so perfectly plus, he now looks as if he has only one leg)

In general, when working on a pose, I often pose myself (many times), it doesn't have to be in front of the mirror, even just to pay attention to how the joints and the limbs act on every motion.

Good effort, keep it up.

[Novbert]

Thanx for the detailed crit on my drawing, Sagir.
I'm glad if you also think that it looks good for the first sight - I think that's the point I can reach now.
Shading - okay, I won't experiment with this (at least not in this thread) till you specifically ask me to do.
I haven't noticed the issue with the lenght of the arm, but you're right. I think I have still not spent enough time with figure drawing to know these kind of relations. I definitely need to do more firgure sketches.
Hands - another thing I have barely drawn so far. I'll check my Bammes books for some samples of them.


In general, when working on a pose, I often pose myself (many times), it doesn't have to be in front of the mirror, even just to pay attention to how the joints and the limbs act on every motion.

Me too :D. I think it's a good way to learn things about poses I want to draw - even if I look like an idiot while doing this :P

A question here: You mentioned that figure drawing is basically drawing a chain reaction. What method would you recommend to draw that chain? I started this drawing by sketching the torso first - which may not be the best idea, since the parts of the torso are the ones which are not connected to any fix point. Maybe it would be a better idea (at least in this specific case) to decide the positions of the feet first (and draw them), then the height and position of the pelvis, and draw it in position, then the placement of the knees. At this point we'll have the (measurable) lenght of the thigh and the shin, so we can measure the other parts of the body to them.
After this I'd decide the placement of the palms, and then the right position of the shoulders and the torso could be found more easier. Also the placement and orientation of the head follows from the position of the torso, and the line of sight.
Maybe this sounds very ... complicated (cause it is) but as I'm not a natural born figure painter, I can feel that I need some kind of systematic approach to figure drawing very badly.
On second thought this process can be initiated with some kind of rough basic study of the figure, but the measuing and constructing parts mustn't be missed imho.
I'd be grateful if you'd share your thoughts about this process, or share yours. Or both ;)

[Neondevil]

1/3 the rest are on the way.

[Novbert]

Since Sagir encouraged us to comment on each other's work, I'll do so.
I think there are some issues with your drawing, Neondevil. First of all: Lack of structure. The drawing looks like you made it in two steps: sketching the whole figure with skechy grey lines...and then drawnig sketchy black lines over it. That's not the best approach imho.
Of course you can keep your drawing sketchy but it's only good for hiding those anatomy detail we're trying to learn (just like blurred shading in my image). I'd suggest that you should remove all the unnecessarly lines and keep the linework as clean as possible. Using longer strokes would also be nice. They make the forms easier to read.
I'd also recommend you to sketch some kind of skeleton of the figure first (like Loomis' mannikin), and then draw the outline of the figure based on the skeleton. It's easy to make measurements and correct mistakes, when it's only about a skeleton, but a little harder on more detailed drawings (mainly beacuse it's a bit harder to see if something went wrong).

About the pose: I think the legs are the best part of it for some reason (though half of them are covered by the trausers). The shape of the feet look okay. Maybe they are a bit oversized but I'm not sure. I could tell more if I'd see the whole left foot. (don't let bodyparts hang out of the image when it comes to figure drawing)
The crotch area is a bit off (As it looks like a male figure there must be some space for reproducitve organs ;)) The torso isn't bent enough, and the arms are way too straight! In this pose arms sould be bent more and the loss of length (between the shoulders and the hands) should be compensated by more bending on the torso. Hands would work better with less detail, and they look too big but maybe just in relation with the arms which are short.
I don't think drawnig facial details are necessary at this point.
Oh, and another thing (not related to the figure, but to the perspecitve): that barrow isn't placed right. It should be in line with - at least - the right foot, but if you draw the middle line of that foot you'll see that it's behind it.
That's all.
Sagir?

[SAGIR]

Hi guys, glad to see we are progressing.

Novbert - thumbs up for taking time to comment on the work of others. The more you force yourself into understanding what's wrong in other pieces, the more confident you will feel in your own work. That's a promise.
As to myself, I find that this is not only about recognizing the faults, but also trying to arrange my thoughts, so that the output will be clear and easy to understand, that helps me improve.

Neondevil - I agree with almost everything that Novbert said, I appologise in advance if I may repeat some of his critique in my own words.
I especially second Novbert on his first paragraph. The lines in your sketch are so thick , and in places - really dense, that is obscures anatomical details, and there are many. To achieve a more anatomically detailed pose you will need to keep it a bit cleaner.

The biggest problem in this piece is the man's stiffness. Boy, is he stiff. To be honest, I am not sure what he is doing, I presume he is bending towards this cart, but he seems to have problems bending any of his limbs and some kind of sore back issue. (sorry if I'm a bit hard with my crits, just trying to get my point across as clearly as possible)
If I put myself in your character's place (and I really did practice this pose myself), the first thing I would do when approaching a heavy object on the floor is bending my front leg a little to bring the torso closer to the cart. Second, I will bend forward with my shoulders and only being close enough I will extend my arms to pick it up. (Chain reaction) Your character has his arms fully extended while he is too far from the object and his legs are straight, that gives him this kind of 'zombie going for the kill' look. (stiff)

You seem to have drawn this dude in a too general manner, ignoring some important details like toes, the joints on the fingers and many 'less important' muscles, once again making it look stiff. Try paying attention to all the Ingredients of this complex machine called - the human body.

Clothes - I would not mention this as a problem if I would see that there's a well figured out human body lying underneath it, unfortunately this is not yet the case, so I would recommend you drawing naked folks for the time being. After all we want to see as much anatomy as possible.

Taking a shot at face drawing at this stage is acceptable but you should really put some more thought in to it. I would say that it is an idea of the face what we see here (eye, nose, some indication of mouth) rather then an actual face. It is not crucial to deal with faces at this level but if you do decide to study something, do it right.

Some specific remarks I'd like to add:
Since he is bending we should see his head and facial details a little from top view and not completely in profile.
His left shoulder doesn't seem to be effected enough by the movement of his hands, it should go lower.
The feet are a little big, plus, they look swollen. ant the 'what it's name' (a little bone sticking sideways on our ankles) is huge on his right foot and doesn't exist on his left)

I assume that you guys do read the crits of other's work, cause many of them are relevant to all of you and I don't see the need to repeat the same sentences, if we can find it in the previous post.

P.S. - The man looks quite happy for someone who's dealing with a pile of crap.

[SAGIR]

Novbert - Unfortunately, unlike in my perspective drawing, I'm not systematic enough in my gesture drawing. Simply, because, I think I don't have enough practice with it. I am not yet at this level where I can paint a perfect pose in a minute, however, I am proud to say that I'm in a place where I can always see if something is wrong (or at least I think I can), thus given enough time and a big eraser - I can produce pretty much any pose I desire. Now this is really important - DON'T BE SHY WITH THE ERASER. The downside of building carefully each hand and finger is that you get attached to the painting to the point where you might keep even some wrongly positioned parts. I work very quickly at the beginning, sketching the whole pose with just a couple of lines, and only when satisfied with it, I start curving the anatomy.

By 'Chain reaction' I men that it is a physical chain reaction - all our organs are connected physically therefore an action will very rarely affect only one muscle or limb without causing others into action.

In this specific pose I would start with the legs. then shoulders and arm (making sure it reaches the floor) then connect those two part with a torso and finally the head. But, as I said I'm not to systematic about it since I often erase parts and redraw them until It 'clicks'. One thing I can say is that when I draw a pose without reference, I always start with the part which is the most interesting for me. That's just my way, I'm sure there are more rational and systematic ways like Loomis'.

Since you asked, here's a little insight to a piece I'm working on right now. I intentionally don't use any references, to practice. It's not a too realistic character but it has no meaning pose-wise.

All I knew in the beginning is that I want to draw a rock guitarist going crazy while paying. I had an image in my head of his wide open mouth screaming and his back arched backwards, so, this is what I started with and you can see it remained with me for the whole process. Every thing else I did with a lot of trial and error, a lot!

I would sketch a pose, look at it for a few seconds, then erase and repaint, one foot, or one hand or the whole lower part of his body. Of course you do need basic anatomic understanding to do quick sketches but I don't really focus on details until I find the right pose.

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This is only a small amount of the changes in the process, my character would usually go through tens of those. Most of these thumbnails are pretty good posses (not weird or distorted) but not the specific feel I wanted. Once I found the right pose I sketched up a background (this also required adjusting the pose a little) and than started redrawing some anatomic details. This is where it is currently standing:

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It is intended to have a really clean look eventually, going for the "GoriLLaz" look. You are welcome to throw some crits at me as well.

[Novbert]

wow, thanx for describing your figure drawing process - very informative, and the sketch also looks cool. some nitpicking: though the toes aren't too detailed I think they should bend forward to make this little fella look he stands stable on the floor (and not backward, as it can be seen on his right foot). and don't forget to connect that guitar to those giant speakers. Nice gesture and character anyway, I like the exarregated anatomy you applied.

About your process: I'll definitely try this approach. I'm always confused when it comes to drawing figures - maybe because I started my studies with portrait drawings, which is a really straightforward process without all those forshortened limbs and stuff.
I'd love to see how this guitarist improves, so send some more WIPs as you progress pretty please. Maybe it's a bit off-topic (maybe it isn't - it's also a figure drawing after all) but as I have problems with lighting, shading and coloring (not to mention textures) and I'm wondering how you do all this stuff on a refless drawing. Some basic explanation would also be nice.
Teach me, man! I wanna learn! ;)

[SAGIR]

Thanx for the remarks, Novbert.

About the toes, I was actually thinking about bending them more backward (like on his right foot) indicating that his in a middle of a small jump, also tried to show it in the way that his dropped shadow doesn't reaches the toes. Definitely need some work there.

Still haven't decided if I want the guitar's cord swinging in the air or falling to the floor.

I will post it again as I will advance.

[Novbert]

oops, I haven't noticed that shadow thingy - it explains the position of the toes.
On the other hand jumping in this position doesn't seems to be possible for me. Both legs and torso are bent backward too much. I think his right leg could be in the air, but at least his left should touch the floor (like he made a giant step sideways).
The guitar's cord swinging in the air is a great idea - it would make the image even more dynamic.
I'm looking forward to see the finished piece (and the in progress ones of course).

[Abichai]

hi everyone sry i haven't a lot of time because i've my last exam this tuesday ^^ However I try to made the 1st assignment in perspective so I post some of my perspective drawing the 1st draw is just cube with the 1VP, 'nd the second is a sheet of little try to do room with 1VP (there is also some other draw with no link)

I hope I understand the 1st assignment in perspective I just draw my horizon line + my VP, and i don't use the rule...i don't know if it's important.

To the 1st assignemnt in anatomy i hope i will achieve this one because i'm just at the beginning with study of skeleton ^^

See u next 'nd ty for the comments ^^ now I post one drawing I will comments too the drawing of you but i don't have a big experience on it.

PS: forgive me for the mistake in my english

[Neondevil]

Some perspective. I left the guidelines in.

[Neondevil]

Actually since we're at it with anatomy and all you think you guys could take a look at this and tell me what you think?

http://www.conceptart.org/forums/showthread.php?p=1805622#post1805622

[Novbert]

Actually since we're at it with anatomy and all you think you guys could take a look at this and tell me what you think?

http://www.conceptart.org/forums/showthread.php?p=1805622#post1805622

Whoa, I'm kinda confused.
I just checked the threads you started and I realised that you are actually mentoring folks on anatomy.
I don't really wanna be a killjoy and also don't wanna discourage anybody who offers help to noobs but... don't you think...
Never mind.
Let's talk about your drawing.
I think that the most serious problem lies in your working method. I can see that you try to draw things following the well-known "basic sketch - lineart - coloring and shading" way but you seem to fail at the very beginning.
I checked your sketchbook. I checked many of your threads. But I hardly found one single sketch during the creation of which you used a tinyest bit of knowledge you must have already learned from Loomis' books - as you teach from them. You just seem to be satisfied having read his books on how to build up a figure from basic masses, how to sketch the skeletal system, and how to put muscles on that skeleton; and you start your drawings with sketching contours and you fail again and again inevitably. Please don't take it offensive, but for God's sake TRY THE METHOD LOOMIS SHOWS! Just once! It's really worth trying.

Another thing: Tools you use.
Well it's hard to talk about "tools" as you seem to use only one - a hard round brush, with totally black color and ... I can't decide if pressure sensitivity is set to anything - but it doesn't seem to. In my opinion using this tool for skeching isn't really the best idea. I learned it recently as I switched back to pencils for a couple of drawings.
When I create pencil drawings I start with a well-sharpened hard pencil, and I don't press it too much to the paper. This way I can draw thin, bright-grey lines which indicate the form, and then I press it more against the paper, and build up the countour gradually as I get more confident of how it should look like.
Line drawing MUST be a gradual process as no one can draw the right contour line for the first try and drawing it over and over again causes loss of line quality.
What I suggest:
- don't use black color when you start the sketching. Use middle grey or brighter. and then, when you feel that the drawing is good enough to ink, then (and just then) draw ower it with black with LONG SINGLE STROKES.
(here is a video of what I talk about: http://www.dailymotion.com/reiq/video/x5e9pl_reiq-lineart-corel-painter-tutorial_creation )
- USE PRESSURE SENSITIVE BRUSHES! It's not an option, it's a must in the proper stage(s) of drawing. Without pressure sensitivity all lines seems to be uniform - and this is what we should avoid. Set pressure sensitivity to opacity or flow or both - which you find easier to use.

That's all.

ps.: When we started this mentoring thingy I commented in your sketchbook, and I haven't get any reactions. When you posted your first drawing I wrote a nice detailed comment on it. No reactions again. Now I comment on your work again since you asked it. I'd be glad if some dialog would form between us but it's really hard if you don't waste a word on my remarks. Just please don't ask for crits if you don't take your time to consider and answer them. Thanks.

[Neondevil]

Whoa, I'm kinda confused.
I just checked the threads you started and I realised that you are actually mentoring folks on anatomy.
I don't really wanna be a killjoy and also don't wanna discourage anybody who offers help to noobs but... don't you think...
Never mind.


Haha I see what you did there. That's cute.


If you want me to critique something just ask although opening all your critiques with passive aggressive comments isn't going to get me on your side.


But hey thanks for helping I'll keep that stuff in mind.

[SAGIR]

Ok, by posting order:

Abichai - First I want to tell you, don't be afraid to try the pose exercise. Worst case scenario - you fail. I promise you'll learn something from the experience. Same goes for commenting on other works. You'll only gain experience if you start doing it. You are among friends and though someone might disagree with you he will definitely won't throw rocks at you for leaving your comment. Now to the perspective exercise:

The first page you attached is a very good exercise and looking at it I can see that you do understand the fundamentals of one point perspective. To make it easier to comment on the second page I did a little paint over with my remarks.

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General comment: I know I said that using the ruler is optional, but I strongly recommend you to use it. Your lines are really crooked in some place and though you understand where they need to go, it doesn't show in the final image (No 1). Working with a ruler is more time consuming but It will get a much nicer result (until you've practiced the freehand lines enough) and it will help me to understand your work, since, in some of your mistakes I am not sure if it is due to lack of understanding or just lack of precision.
The middle ground would be to use the ruler for guidelines, and once you have those in place, paint the geometry freehanded.

Pic No 2 - This one is unclear to me. Think it belongs to the russian avant-garde movement from the early twentieth century :)

pic no 3 - Notice that the two part of the line I overpainted don't actually sit on the same line, this makes it look awkward, plus it look like the bench is getting more narrow at his further end. Also, once again, very not precise work with the lines.

Pic No 4 - The weird line there is really out of place, it looks that you were confused when drawing it since is not parallel to the other lines, not going to the VP and certainly not vertical. Remember: When painting 1PT PERSPECTIVE with rectangular objects, all the lines should belong to one of the above mentioned categories. Repainted it a little just to organize what you wanted to show.

Pic No 5 - The right side of the table is further away from the viewer then the left side and actually looks like it is becoming part of the wall. Also it is a little weird that the windows are so much higher than the table top but maybe you wanted it this way.

Pic No 6 - I think its a little too complicated to paint an arial landscape view as a one point perspective. Especially because the scene usually doesn't have too many parallel lines. However if you did paint a road going into a vanishing point, lines that are parallel to this road should also meet in the same VP. Example - the line that connects all the tree tops.

Pic no 7 - Pretty good work on this one. You just forgot the bottom doorway lines. And again: precision, precision, precision.

[SAGIR]

Neondevil (Persp exrcise) - well done on this one! I see that you know what you are doing... thus far. I have a few little comments on your work.

First, the height of the horizon (viewer's eyes). I would think that it is logical to position the viewer as if he is standing on the street, but since you painted the whole doorpost (including the upper line - dunno how it's called in English) below the horizon line - you made the viewer fly above ground level. This is weird but possible, but then, to add to the confusion, you added a little person standing on the ground with his head at the horizon level. So, either that guy is really tall or the doors are really low. I hope I managed to explain what I mean.

Second, the little horizontal line showing through the door to the right. I understand that this is to separate the floor from the wall. If you continue it to the left, you'll find that it is higher than the exterior corner of the building, that can't be. In fact, considering the wall's thickness it supposed to be a little lower then that corner.

Third and final, the clouds. Since you have decided to indicate some clouds, be aware that those are, in fact objects spread on a surface parallel to the ground (sky), that means that they also should get smaller the closer they are painted to the horizon line. Currently it looks like a flat wallpaper.

[SAGIR]

Neondevil - Since Novbert was kind enough to cover the technique realted issues (some great points there) I will comment on the product itself. I will refer to the last image on your thread.

Generally speaking, it looks like she's getting a tattoo while her husband is holding her hand. The mean expression on the man's face is the only thing to indicate otherwise.

Considering that she is only held by one hand and that she doesn't want to get drilled. It would be logical for her to retreat backwards and bend in to protect her torso as much as possible, instead of pushing it forward. Also her right hand is awkwardly positioned, even if it's somehow tied (like in the initial sketch) she would still, instinctively try to pull it closer to her for protection.

Anatomy wise, this is quite a cartoony style - since the lines are to angular and many details are left out (once again no joints on the fingers). The woman's repainted face is a good start if you want to go more realistic.

I have to say that this is one big woman, just as big as the bad guys. Her body is really masculine (except for the breasts) and her shoulders are huge. I think this scene would benefit from a slimmer and more fragile feminine figure.

There are many anatomical issues but it will all improve the more you study and practice. Keep on doing it.

[SAGIR]

Novbert - That's awesome that you pay attention to details and analyze the pose like you did with my painting. I find that it is in learning the little details lies the big understanding. (it sounds like a phrase from karate kid :) )

Have you ever watched distance jumping in the olympics? During that jump there's a point when the athlete throws his torso forward (with limbs stretched backwards) to get a few more centimeters. This is what I had in mind with this pose. I realize it might be too much for only jumping off the bed, but you can see I was not trying to go realistic but rather make the pose as dynamic as possible. (This rocker is unleashed I'm tellin' ya)

As promised, here are some progress pics. Since I want a really clean look it is very time consuming. Had to go over all the details with the pan tool (this is first time for me practicing this kind of style). Also changed the initial background, added some detail and threw in a startled pet. (Love this cat)
Then moved the created paths to Illustrator to give some depth to the line art.
393242

This is how it looks coming out of the illustrator back to Photoshop for painting. (currently working on it)
393243

[Novbert]

nice update Sagir, thanx for sharing.
about the pic: It's coming along nicely, I'd just made one remark. Using paths to do the linework is the thing I tried only once, and I think I'll never try it again. I found it very time-consuming, and boring, and the results were somehow... lifeless. The beautiest linearts I've ever seen were all drawn with the scratchboard tool of Painter. you can find many tutorials about it, this (http://celesse.deviantart.com/art/Inking-Tutorial-for-Painter-22103422), and this video tut (http://www.graphictip.com/2d-graphic/adobe-photoshop/2008/05/12/reiq-line-art-corel-painter-tutorial/) for example. The only secret is that you should draw the lines pretty much zoomed in (at least at a 100% or even 200% view), and the resolution of the image should be very high (at least 300 dpi). This way your little mistakes can't be seen on the final image and you get an incomparably better line-weight variety.

ps.: I'm kinda busy right now, but I'll post the perspective study and the figure's front view till the end of the week.

[Abichai]

Hi ty for the comments ^^ so i do a new sheet of perspective because this time....I use my rule so I beileve this will be more precise. I try to do room from different point of view with different object in it. I try also t do an outside perspec but I haven't a lot of idea about outside expect a road with building... To the life drawing I don't begin it, but i beleive that is will be done tomorrow... I'm in holidays now I achieve my last exam yesterday ^^ So that's all for this and I love your cray guitarist the last look really good to me with the cat who add an equilibration for the composition..that's what i think ^^ i don't know if it's correct but nice work ^^

[Novbert]

As we're getting kinda workshoppy here - which is very good imho - I decided to encourage you to share your thoughts about my newest figure drawing. You can find it here (http://www.conceptart.org/forums/showthread.php?t=128999).

[Abichai]

I look ur WIP 'nd well I think this is a pretty good start. But maybe i'm wrong, i think there is a problem hip/ around the navel.

Nice job, I will follow ur thread ^^

I hope I will be able to show u some anatomi drawing ^^

[SAGIR]

Novbert - Nice start dude, here's what I think:

First of all, it is unclear whether she is trying to stand on her knees or she is supposed to be sitting on her feet (when you look at her left leg she is sitting and when you look at her right she is standing on a knee). I presume you wanted her sitting (since if she was to stand on her knees her bottom has to be much higher) In that case both thighs are too long, especially her right thigh since it is coming towards us. Also, if she is sitting, her whole pelvis should be much lower in relation to her left knee.

Her torso seems to be leaning forward, is that intentional? Usually when sitting like that the head is located above the pelvis and the back is slightly arched.

Her right hip is sticking out a little too much and I think you should detail the knees a little since in that pose you can see a little of the joints.

It is still in progress but looks as if the shoulders and the chest structure are a little wide and masculine for a feminine figure.

The head is definitely little small and the face is waaay too small. Also it looks like you have not yet decided what to do with her right hand. (and where's the fingers man?)

Just my thoughts.

[SAGIR]

Abichai (persp exercise) - Nicely done. This is way better. Now I realize that most of your mistakes where just lack of precision. Some good notes:

It is great that you are trying different locations for VP, often a 'surprising' location of VP can add much interest to the pic.

The picture with 5 doors is great, you added a twist by adding all these doors and made it interesting, very much Esher style. ( if you don't know M.C.Esher, google for him, now.)

Though we don't yet deal with composition, but adding an element on the foreground (close to the viewer), like you did on the third (second from bottom) pic , adds depth to the piece. Good work.

Things to improve:

Some of the elements in your pictures are a little flat. even a picture or a window has frame and thickness, it is a little naive to draw them only with one line. Examples : The picture in the first pic, some doors in the second and the skylight in third (don't try to force the clouds to fit in the window)

If you would like to challenge your self more with that last pic (road and buildings) and add some interest , you might try to paint a larger amount of buildings, make them stand close together so they will partly obscure each other , it will be more difficult.

Finally, please read the my last comment on Neondevil's exercise, about the clouds, it is relevant to you too.

PS - When you post several pics like this time, please add a number on each one to make it easier to comment on them. Keep up the good work.

[SAGIR]

Novbert - thanx for the useful Lineart links. I would sure like to find a less boring and technical method to work with lines. I guess I usually feel confused with the Painter's enormous tool variety. I must add, to Pen tools favor, that once you're done with the boring tracing stage, you have way more control over you lineart (especially using the illustrator) to modify it and change the line widths. Also, if you want it super clean with perfect, geometrical curves, achieving it by freehand is almost impossible.
In most cases, though, I'd just like to be able to draw it free handed like in the tutorial.

Here's how my piece ended up. (Abichai - you are right, the cat is there basically due to compositional considerations)

395125

[Abichai]

Well I do a little sheet of anatomic to test me 'nd olalala this is very very catastrophic so I will do 2/3 sheet 'nd after try to do a man who is bending to take a coins. So I post my sheet of anatomic drawing there is number :hugsmile:

Very nice finished piece Sagir ^^ 'nd thanks to the advice. However, the skin of the man look like a little zombie style no? or gray?...

Edit: this is from Loomis book All Figure Drawing worth or a title like this ^^

[SAGIR]

Abichai - Im glad to see your studies. I have to admit that it's a little hard for me to comment on something like this. You are studying from a book who's author is definitely knows more about anatomy and poses than I do. Plus, for myself, I'm not too familiar with this technique since I never used Loomis for my own studies (usually I use more realistic skeleton illustrations for studies)
I think I can be more helpful with actual human poses since I know how they are supposed to look like.

For all it's worth: Something looks off with the 1.2 torso, and the 2.3 is out of balance and about to fall - that has to do with his head located to more right than his right foot.
Keep up the good work.

[Abichai]

I do another sheet of studies ^^ There is two different sketch one which is the base skeleton 'nd other which is the skeleton plus bulk simplified So tell me what u think about with ur thoughts I can modify 'nd progress my skill.
I believe that all my drawing are a problems with the hips wich 're too large no?

Thanks for the coment Sagir ^^ Ok I will try to rise my speed to begin to do figure drawing with more realistic skeleton ;D


Edit: I add the end of the first sheet and I will begin another one this night

[Novbert]

SAGIR: Thanx for the deatailed comment on my pinup piece. I must admit that you're right in almost every respect, so I decided to redraw the piece totally. You can find the new version here (http://www.conceptart.org/forums/showthread.php?t=128999) if you're interested.

About your "Gorillaz" drawing. I like how it turned out (the character and the composition are really cool), though wider value-range (and color range) would be nice. And those smooth gradients everywhere! I don't really think they are necessary. (The shading on the pillow and on that stop-sign look especially odd.) And one more thing: That photorealistic wall looks weird in comparison with the other, cartoony parts of the image.

Abichai: I think using Loomis to learn anatomy is a good idea, but as all these skeches are from ref, you can easily compare them to the originals. Just create a screenshot of the Loomis book, lower the opacity of that layer and place it over your drawing. Then you'll be able to see all the differences. I'd suggest that you should keep practicing the drawing of the most simple mannikin, till you really feel the right proportions. Then you can advance to more complicated models. Another suggestion: the method of Loomis is not the only one. I usually laid my hands on Bammes' anatomy books. He has a slightly different approach of drawing bodyparts. I think you should give it a try. (you can find some samples here (http://www.conceptart.org/forums/showthread.php?t=119441&highlight=Bammes). Check the torso part! I think torso is your weakest point this time.)


And SAGIR again: Here are my perspective attempts. They are kinda minimalistic - I know - but even these easy ones were really hard to draw. I mean all those perspective lines were getting really confusing as I was adding more and more shapes to these drawings. Maybe it's a good idea to hide those helper lines which aren't necessary at the moment.
So here is the first piece:

396779

I tried to apply Loomis' method on this one to make those rectangles wich are facing towards us the same size.
And here is another one:

396780

It supposed to be the - very schematic - front view of a TIE Interceptor if it wouldn't be obvious ;-)

[SAGIR]

Novbert (pinup) - Tell me if you prefer me posting in the other thread, it's just that I get e-mail notifications from this one.

Mmmm... you sure made progress.
It looks much better. The overall pose is much improved and I can actually feel her having a weight and sitting on something. Good work with the lower part of her body, except for the left shine (where it connects to the ankle) it looks great.

All of my comments are about the upper body anatomy:

It is still not feminine enough. The most obvious mistake is the line that goes from her right waist to right arm pit, it should meet the arm line much closer to the arm pit, maybe even get obscured by her right breast. Also, the way you handled the stomach area makes it look too muscled and geometrical.

The neck and the shoulder line are not really perpendicular in reality, especially with women the transition is much gentler than you indicated. Your avatar would make a good ref for this. Also the right shoulder's height makes it look like she's shrugging, not too relaxed.

About the hands, it is still unclear what you wanted to do with the right hand, will she be leaning on it or is it lies relaxed on her thigh? Also is that the left palm we are seeing behind the left thigh? What exactly is she doing with it? Looking at the left thigh and palm, they don't seem to connect well behind her back. One other thing, sorry for being a pain in a neck about this one, but I really think that fingers belong to this stage, as they are important to set the mood of the character, and not in a later, detailing phase.

I don't mind the manga eyes at all but did you intend her to be so sad? If you want a tempting expression, you will need to repaint those eyelids and add a hint of a smile (not too much)

Just my thoughts. Will be following on your progress.

[SAGIR]

Abichai - I didn't say you should practice from realistic skeleton (this is only how I did) stick to whatever works for you. I just said thae there's not much for me to comment on this since I'm not to familiar with Loomis. As Novbert said, you have the book to compare and see how you did. You are still welcome to post and show us your progress.

Novbert (perspective exercise) - Great work!:asspat:
Though it is minimalist it sure doesn't lack complexity and interest. You did challenge yourself and I like the result a lot. You have great understanding of the one point perspective.

I do realize that the guide lines get confusing as objects pile up ( you even don't want to hear how I studied geometrical perspective with an old-school russian teacher). Maybe you can find a way to hide some of them when working (maybe use layers) but I would really like to see those when you post your final image. I even thinks that it looks better with guide lines, especially that second drawing.

I did a little paintover to simplify for the other guys what exactly you did 'using the Lommis method'. When we want two faces to appear the same size, even if they are in different distances from us, we should imagine those two faces as part of one rectangular object. (this object doesn't have to relate to our main vanishing point but to any point on the horizon)
396897

I have to make a confession, I never watched the 'star wars' movies (except for one episode in the 80's) but a TIE interceptor does rings a bell, as some vessel from this series. This is well done but due to the schematic nature and the irregular shape of the wings, it is hard to completely understand the form. (for example, how do the wings connect to the body) but that doesn't really has to do with the rules of perspective with which you have no difficulties. On a nitpicking note, the TIE is not completely symmetrical, which means that a guide line is missing somewhere. Never the less, you should be satisfied we those results.

Thanks for the "GoriLLaz" critique. I did notice they use lots of gradients and realistic backgrounds in their posters (Example (http://www.popstarsplus.com/images/GorillazPicture.jpg)) but I guess there's difference between noticing it and making it work.

[Abichai]

I like your persp Novbert but at the beginning I was a little confused with the 1st drawing 'nd all his guideline now with the explanation of the loomis method I understand more the persp. The 2nd persp is a front view ^^ at the first time I believe that's a ship in starwars but I hads forget the name...'nd when u said this is the TIE I was pretty happy to be able to recognize the ship, I believe this front view is correct because a view canno't give a lot of detail Good job ;D

I take ur advice 'nd redo a sheet of the 1rst manekin the simplest of Loomis this sheet contain only the face mannekin 'nd I will work today the back 'nd side 'nd face again because I see my problems with the torso come about this manekin where I have a lot of difficult to found the good shape to the torso part. However I would know when I do the manekin must I use a ruler 'nd measure all the distance or must I just do the manekin without a ruler 'nd after verify with the ruler the distance?



Hey Sagir when the next exercise in perspective? ^^ Because I believe that I will be the last in Anatomic assignments 'nd I'm better in perspec...maybe ^^

See u next ^^

[Jigmin]

Is it alright if I participate in this, figured I'd ask instead of just posting.

[SAGIR]

Jigmin - I'm sorry man, but I only mentor the three guys that approached me first. (Abichai, Novbert and Neondevil)
As I said to some other folks, I won't be able to support and seriously comment on more works than that.

Feel free to follow along and post comments on their works, or practice on your own.

PS - check out this 'Classroom for All" :
http://www.conceptart.org/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=142

And this one, if you're looking to be mentored:
http://www.conceptart.org/forums/showthread.php?t=110324

[SAGIR]

Abichai - I will post the next exercise as soon as I put some more introduction info together.

I'm not familiar with the Loomis technique but I would not use the ruler to measure distances when painting but rather practice and paint freehanded from observation. Once you feel you given it enough try and still it feels off, I guess it's ok to measure and see what went wrong.d

I was wondering, what that - ^^ means? Is it a french thing? :)

[Abichai]

ok I take ur advice 'nd make 1 sheet of figure without the ruler 'nd I love it because I don't have to do a quadrillage to take the measure at the beginning I was a little afraid to do a skeleton without my ruler 'nd all my guidelines but now I fell pretty confident to do it without my precious ruler loool So I post the sheet, on this there are some face skeletons 'nd some side skeletons I will begin to move my mannekin 'nd put it on different position after I do a bit more side skeleton.

This "^^" is not frenchie this is just an old bad habit I put it it's like lol or cool or more precisly that means 'I'm happy' ;D

Well I stop there ^^

[Novbert]

hey, Abichai, those mannikins are improving pretty nicely, but still suffer from some issues.
First of all: shoulders. I've checked Loomis' book and that triangle you use to connect the arms to the ribcage is just too large on your drawings (even Loomis tends to leave those triangles and attach the arms - almost -directly to the ribcage)
And the other thing: pelvis. You always draw those two disk separated, though they should be connected, and you always draw them way too small. I think you should leave all those limbs for a while, and focus on torso, the proportions and the relative placement of the ribcage, the pelvis and the scapula. And I recommend again to use Bammes. This picture (http://graphic.org.ru/lessons/bammes/bammes00.jpg) and this one (http://graphic.org.ru/lessons/bammes/bammes24.jpg) are very informative and useful - they show the right proportions, and also show the way to draw the torso. Try to sketch these and then go back to the mannikin!

[Kweckduck]

Hope I can still join the show, here at least my first perspective excercise:

http://i193.photobucket.com/albums/z293/kweckduck/room.jpg

[Abichai]

Hi Kweckduck I respond to ur question by another question ^^ Have u read the thread before posting? Because ur answer is 4/5 post earlier....

Quote :

Jigmin - I'm sorry man, but I only mentor the three guys that approached me first. (Abichai, Novbert and Neondevil)
As I said to some other folks, I won't be able to support and seriously comment on more works than that.

Feel free to follow along and post comments on their works, or practice on your own.

PS - check out this 'Classroom for All" :
http://www.conceptart.org/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=142

And this one, if you're looking to be mentored:
http://www.conceptart.org/forums/sho...d.php?t=110324

This is the same case for you ..... read before post this can be usefull for all of us ^^



Novbert - I look at the Bammes link u give me 'nd I found his methode very found on the shape 'nd on the plan or I wrong? And with that I think it's too earlier to do it ^^ but if u said me to work on the torso part I will work I begin to draw some sketches with the 2 references link 'nd I will post them soon

However for the manekin I don't know if it's true because look the image I post this is an extract from the page of Loomis method 'nd we can see a triangle to link the ripecage 'nd the arms in 3 mannekin..and on the four he don't do it so I don't know... but I agree with u the triangle which I made 're to big ^^ And I have a lot of issue in my mannekin so I work the torso part with ur references image.

Also I don't understand how this will help me to correct my problems with my mannekin? Because I don't go to draw this torso part in my first mannekin or I wrong here too?

[Kweckduck]

Ah, no I just read the first couple of post and got excited. Guess I wasn't as polite as Jigman, my apologies. I'll be keeping my eye on here though. :)

[Novbert]

Novbert - I look at the Bammes link u give me 'nd I found his methode very found on the shape 'nd on the plan or I wrong? And with that I think it's too earlier to do it ^^ but if u said me to work on the torso part I will work I begin to draw some sketches with the 2 references link 'nd I will post them soon

Yes, this method is found on the shape, but when you draw the human body, you draw 2d representations of 3d shapes eventually, aren't you? I think that understanding the 3d shape is the key to create a working drawing - even when it's about mannikins, the shapes of which are very simplified. Loomis' book has some very good points, but it gives very little help on 3d construcion of the bodyparts. I saw it at Bammes first, and I found his method very useful and easy to understand. I didn't want to give you some kind of assignment - it's SAGIR's job here - I just recommended a way to improve those sketches.



However for the manekin I don't know if it's true because look the image I post this is an extract from the page of Loomis method 'nd we can see a triangle to link the ripecage 'nd the arms in 3 mannekin..and on the four he don't do it so I don't know... but I agree with u the triangle which I made 're to big ^^ And I have a lot of issue in my mannekin so I work the torso part with ur references image.

Just some more remarks on that triangle (let's call it scapula as it represents that). If you check any other sketches on the page you posted (those posed ones) or on the next one you'll notice that even Loomis left that part of the mannikin, or draw it barely noticable. Scapula is part of the human body, but it's just not as emphasized as you drew it.



Also I don't understand how this will help me to correct my problems with my mannekin? Because I don't go to draw this torso part in my first mannekin or I wrong here too?

Torsos are torsos regardless the simplifications you apply while rendering them and more knowledge of them than you currently need won't hurt I guess.
I think the most useful thing that can be learned from those bammes studies (especially from the second one) is the way to draw the torso form basic forms, and the correct proportions. I've checked and all your sideviews are proportionally off - the ribcage is giant and the pelvis is little (I think because Loomis drew that ribcage too big on that one sideview picture). I'd also recommend that you should leave those boring, standing figures, and advance to those posed ones. Anatomy can't be learned by repetative copying the same standing figure. Also this way you can easily be misleaded by the small mistakes of Loomis.

[SAGIR]

Okey dokey, Time for lesson number 2:

TWO POINT PERSPECTIVE

All the basic principles from first lesson are just as relevant here and will be relevant for all sorts of perspective. A short reminder:

1. Horizon Line = the height of viewers eyes.
2. All lines parallel in reality will meet in one point on the HL.
3. Lines perpendicular to the viewers line of sight will stay parallel on paper - will not be skewed to any VP.

We use 2POINT PERSP when we draw rectangular objects with none of their faces is facing us (perpendicular to our line of sight) for example when we stand in front of a corner of a building. Imagine a plan view of the situation, we now have two groups of parallel lines, which are not perpendicular to the viewers line of sight, therefore we need to use two VPoints on the horizon.
Here's another Oliver's illustration. Note at the plan view, the 'red face' lines and the 'blue face' lines, each will go to it's own vanishing point.
401507

Painting a 2P persp is not much different in methodic.
First mark the horizon (viewer's height)
Second, I draw a vertical line, I like to think of it as the point which is exactly in front of the viewer. Usually it will become a corner, closest to us, but it doesn't have to.
Third, mark the two vanishing points on the HL.
Fourth, draw guidelines and according to those construct your geometry.
You didn't think I would leave you without an Illustration to explain things:
401508
Here it is again after constructing the geometry:
401509

Where do I position Vanishing Points?
That has to do with two parameters: The angle of the object in relation to the viewer and the geometry of the building.

1. What defines the angle of the box is the distance between the two vanishing points. Look at the Illustration below. The closer we bring those two together the sharper the angle appears (and the opposite)
There are strict geometric rules for defining a distance for vanishing points to portray precisely 90 deg angle but it is too complicated and unnecessary. Trust your feeling and eyes. You can usually get away with minor angle mistakes.
401506

2. To define the angle of the object in relation to the viewer we have to 'play' with the distance of each of the VP from the corner vertical line. Once again an image attached below.
401505
In case number 1 - The viewers' line of sight 'slices' the corner right down the middle (splittin' the angle to two 45 deg angles), in that case the Vanishing points should be positioned in equal distances from the corner vertical.
In case number 2 - The box was rotated a little so that the situation is not symmetrical. That caused both VPoints to ove to the right, VpA moved further away from the corner vertical while VpB moved closer to it.
In case 3 - we rotated the cube some more until on face is perpendicular to the viewer's line of sight. In fact this is one point perspective, the lines that used to go to VpA are now perpendicular to the viewer's line of sight, hence parallel to the HL in the painting and VpA disappeared. Since the viewer is looking directly at the corner, the only VP that remained will be behind the corner line.

Note: It is very rarely that we paint a scene with all objects are aligned to each other. There will usually be some buildings in different angles (or a book laying on a table). The lines of this object are not parallel in reality to those of the others, that means that we have to construct separate vanishing points for every differently aligned object.

2nd Exercise:

As you probably figured, an outdoor scene will be most appropriate for this exercise. It can be a view of one house or a group. Try challenging yourself with houses which are more complicated than just cubes, experiment with details, follow all the principles of perspective. ( try inserted one or two objects which are not aligned at the same angle as all of the scene) Make it interesting for you to work and the result should be interesting as well.

Notice that I often use the 'plan view' in my illustrations and explanations. I want you to do the same since for creating more complicated scenes, it is important how the objects aligned in relation to the viewer in 'plan view'.
This is another good illustration to see the difference between one and two point perspective (including plan view):
401510

And two inspirational images with 2point persp:
401511
401512

HUMAN ANTOMY EXERCISE

New pose: A woman sitting on a chair with her legs crossed (this is trickier than it sounds)
I think that it's alright to use the mirror for those pose exercises as it's really good for studying.
Needless to say that you can still post the first pose assignment when you're done with it.

This is all for now folks. Keep up the good work.

[SAGIR]

Novbert - Your pinup is coming along nicely. You are almost there.

Her right breast seems to be lower than her left one. Her fingers rest on her right thigh in somewhat unnatural way and I think u r not quite there with the look on her face, maybe add a hint of smile.
Also, there is still some stiffness in her upper body but I can't put my finger on exactly what is wrong, I'll think about it.

Abichai - It is great that you are so consistent with your studies, however I urge to take some shots at the pose exercises. Painting the same standing mannikin helps you to memorize the specific pose (it is not bad) but I think that it is best to try as much poses as possible in order to understand the 3d shapes. Once the 3d shape is understood you can paint any pose you want.

Neondevil - sound your voice so we'll know you're still with us.

[Novbert]

Hey SAGIR! Thanx for the new lesson and the remarks on my pinup piece.
About the lesson: At the end you mentioned that we can still post the first pose assignment (I know I have already posted a sketch, but I still owe you the front view). Is it a must, or can I advance to this new pose exercise? I just find this new one a little more ... inspiring at the moment :)
About the pinup crit: I have seen that breast-issue earlier (I wanted to apply perspective on the body - I seem to have failed, so I applyed a little ... breast surgery on her ;) I hope it's better now.) Facial expression is another issue already mentioned by others too. We'll see what I can do about it.

Since you made that comment I advanced to the shading and coloring part (and moved my thread to the critique center - the up-to-date link can be found in my signature) and now I feel kinda stucked. I mean I feel I'm constrained by the linework, and I don't really know how to add more detail to the figure (body, cloth, hair). But I wanna keep that lines as I want to achieve some kind of cartoony look. Maybe I should detail the linework some more, and then do the coloring and shading based on that extended lineart.(?) Or should I do the coloring and shading with textured brushes to achive interesting textures? Or what?
Any suggestions are appreciated.

[remmy]

ahh! no one told me about this thread!!!
I missed out :(
Great tut though I will ref next time I do some perspective.

[SAGIR]

Novnbert - I think you can do any assignment you wish, I know how hard it is to force yourself when not feeling inspired. Just as long as it's not because something looks to hard to cope with.

[Abichai]

Hi I made this sheet of perspective exercise. There is two part, one with somez studies withj just box, 'nd another one with sudies more detail which are a house + a beginning of a city (I don't finish it yet)

During 1 month I will be busy because I do a voluntary work 'nd so I can't send u my drawing, I will continue to follow the thread 'nd do the assignment but they will post in August when I will come back to my home with ny new Wacom too ;D

So see you next time I continue to draw during this time 'nd look this thread so I beleive this is pretty good

[SAGIR]

Abichai - sorry for the late response, was busy with my studies.

Nice 2point persp practice, I see through your "boxes" exercise that you do understand how this works. However, when you deal with a more complicated subjects (1.5) I see some difficulties.

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Judging by small roof the front column should stand in one line with the front wall.

The ridge of the roof is not located directly over the center of the wall. Though I didn't explain it yet - to find the center of a face in perspective we should draw the two diagonals, they will always meet in the center point.

Also the window closest to us should look bigger than the one further away.

I recommend you to do more practice with complicated subjects. Good
work.

P.S - I, too, will be away from the computer from the end of July to August 10th

[SAGIR]

OK guys. After a long break for the sake of my studies and some traveling in Europe, I'm back at home. Feel free to post the exercises. I will post lesson 3 soon.

[Abichai]

Hi so after a long break ^^ I do this 2VP perspective like u ask, I try to do a city I hope it's good XD Like u can see Sagir I've take also another mentor who teach me the anatomy I hope this is not forbiden to continue your course. If it's ok I will learn the perspective with you 'nd with the other I would continue to learn the figure drawing.

So now let's see the perspective ^^

I believe she is quiet good my main poblem was to be imaginativ 'nd not to repetitive.

[Abichai]

Sagir our master 're u lost in the world? ^^ Well I hope u 're always alive 'nd all is good I hope to see u soon.

[SAGIR]

Hi Abichai, hope you have enjoyed your break. I just got home after 5 months abroad so I'm currently between semesters, between jobs and between apartments so It takes me a while to respond. Never the less I'm glad to get back into this.

Needless to say that It is ok to have as many mentors as you want as long as you keep up with the assignments. Study as much as you can from every available sources. That's what I do.

Here's your last painting with some remarks:
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1. You seem to have neglected some of the buildings' base lines, notice that each building is basically a cube which means that the lines of its base are parallel to the lines of its top face and that's why they go to the same vanishing point.

2. The lines on the sidewalk - I presume that those lines are perpendicular to the sidewalk and parallel to each other - that means that those lines are no different from the way you painted the buildings - line x is parallel in reality to lines y,z and w. That means x also has to go to vp A. I have painted only on one side walk but this remark is true to all the sidewalk on the painting.

3. The horizon line - when choosing the height of the horizon it is often best to place it in heigh of a person standing on the ground level in the scene. As you know, the horizon is the height of the viewers eyes, the way you placed it makes it feel that rather the viewer is floating in the air or the buildings are really small (the building on the right is lower than the horizon). If you given it some thought and decided it is best it is ok but I, personally, think that it is not working to your advantage since this picture is about showing large, high rise buildings.

4. Another thing that makes the buildings look small is the hight of the sidewalk. Buildings can be of different sizes but sidewalk is usually around 10-25 cm (it is like placing a human for scale). Someone who looks at the picture - seeing the road and the building in proportion to the sidewalk would think that the road is too narrow and the buildings are really small.

Nice effort on this overall, I'm glad you are experiencing and learning!

[SAGIR]

YEEY!! Lesson 3 - 3 POINT Perspective.

This lesson is relatively short since it strongly relies on principles from the two previous lessons.
A short reminder:

1. Horizon Line = the height of viewers eyes.
2. All lines parallel in reality will meet in one point on the HL.
3. Lines perpendicular to the viewers line of sight will stay parallel on paper - will not be skewed to any VP.

Peinciple number 3 of the above paragraph is very relevant to this lesson. Until now we dealt mostly with situations where the viewers line of sight is parallel to the ground (perpendicular to the vertical lines) but when we look up to a high building or down from a building top - our line of sight is meets the walls in quite an angle (not perpendicular - illustration attached), hence, according to principle number 3, those lines will now need their own vanishing point.
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Let's say we looking down on a building (illustration below). Notice that nothing changed regarding the two vanishing points on the horizon all that happened is that we added a third VP, in this case, BELOW the horizon. As simple as that.
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It is good to understand that in reality our line of sight is rarely exactly parallel to the ground but we will chose to use the 3p perspective only in relatively extreme situations. This form of perspective is used to enhance the feeling of heigh or deepness. In the example below, notice how the building on the left looks much higher than that on the right. (I've only
added a third VP)
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How to determine the distance of the third VP from the horizon? In general - the closer you stand to the building - the closer the VP to the horizon line and the building looks more distorted. Here are two examples:

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In this one we see that the vanishing point is sitting right on top of the building, this is very unusual and way to close to the horizon. The pictures looks bad and unnatural since it is not possible for a human eye to see the third VP so close to the horizon (which indicates standing close to the building) and the two other points (which indicates standing far from the building) at the same time. This conflict causes the picture to look skewed.

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We can see that this picture is much more natural. Since the viewer is looking upwards the two lower VPoints are out of the frame and the third point is far enough from the horizon.

3d exercise:
This time I've got two:
1. Practice the 3 point persp - create a few scenes with 3 point persp. As usual, it doesn't has to be a master piece, on the other hand, do challenge yourself and make it an interesting painting. Questions are welcome.

2. This is an exercise I created for first year architecture students. Here's a plan with a group of rectangular objects and the location of the viewer. Please paint the group of objects as seen by the viewer (2point persp), dont forget to take the object's height and the viewers height into account.
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Rock on!

[Abichai]

Hi I don't draw a lot this time sorry but I've a studies problems that I need to check it so I will try to redraw more in the next weeks 'nd post the advancement.

[Abichai]

Hi so after some hard time I rebegin to draw slowly so I do the two assignment.

I call my 3VP building creation the ChessHouse... because I don't have any other idea at this time.

I beleive they 're pretty good in perspective I will try later a 3VP creation more realistic with more detail. And I hope that the exercise I do is correct ^^

[SAGIR]

Abichai - That 2p perspective exercise is quite good. Here's the correct painting. I used a 3d program to make it 100% accurate.

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About the 3p exercise, I'm looking forward to a more challenging, I think this one is too simple. Try painting a view of someone looking at the city from a sky scraper's roof.